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Morberis

Join Date 03/2006

UI

Within 5 minutes of starting up this game for the 3rd time (beta 1 was far too boring for me) I notice 3 glaring problems concerning the UI.

When I scroll out the little symbols for the ships group up becoming a mash of ships, perhaps they do have a distance between them but for me at least it was so bad I had to zoom in all the time to select ships.

The ship symbols are far too small, the ones I see on screen zoomed out not the ones on the left. I had to squint and put my head to the monitor half the time to see correctly what each ship was. Possibly make a slider bar in the settings menu to change the size of the symbols representing ships

This one is tied in with the other two - the symbols for the ships just aren't distinguishable enough. It creates alot of confusion when looking on that bar on the left with the ships and you can't tell the differences between them. This could be changed by making the symbols more distinguishable or by making them bigger. Again the slider bar would do wonders here. Also it would be nice to use a right click menu to add and remove ships/objects from that bar thing on the left. I don't care about half the stuff on there and it clutters up my screen. If you want a good example of this check out Eve Onlines Overview Box, thats the type of display options I want.

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lordkosc

Join Date 12/2006

I mentioned back in beta 1, that the ship symbols would be better served as shapes, but nothing ever came of it

Similar to how SupCom does it when you zoom all the way out.

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Here's an idea: when the mouse cursor is moved over a group of icons that are close together, they will enlarge and spread out, allowing the player to choose one. They return to normal after one is selected or the cursor is moved away.

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Lordkosc,
Our ships symbols were originally basic shapes long before beta 1. We weren't impressed by the look and changed them to ship representations. The problem with basic shapes with this many ships is you are forcing people to learn a little symbol language. On the last pass we exaggerated key features on each ship to help out. We also made the empire tree ships (on the left) the same as the main icon ships.(They used to be 3/4 view). We may need to revisit this, possibly enlarge.

Morberis, Mohanon - great ideas for the clustering issue. We'll be looking into this in the future.

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Something you could do in Homeworld was turn on "tactical mode" which would put a square outline around one type of ship, triangle around another, etc. Maybe something like that would be good.

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

A clustering solution I'd like to see myself would be to actually implement the same one-icon-per-group system for frigates, and such when you zoom out as is used for fighters, so long as the icon indicates that you're controlling a group of ships. That way you have less clutter AND a higher level of control easily available (I commonly find myself needing to grab my flak frigates and send them after enemy bombers--having one icon to control them all since I generally play zoomed out to see the whole planet at once would be very handy I think).

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here are a few things to consider this is about fleets

1. those little fleet flags need to move between the systems so you know where your fleet is.

2. the only thing that needs to be shown most of the time with the fleet flag is the fleet flag. of course keeping the ability to open and close the fleet so you can see what is there. the fleet flag should be clickable ie i click on the fleet flag and issue orders view the fleet flag instead of clicking on the little dots beside the flag.

3. all fleets move together. they move at the speed of thier slowest ship. ie in the usa navy a carrier group does everything in a formation except come into port.
so if you have your ships in a fleet represented by a fleet flag those ships should be moving together. If you just highlight a bunch of ships those ships would move at their best speed.

as for a fleet formation. The best one in a space fleet would be a sphere with the bigger ships in the middle. this would one promote the use of the fleet flags. and do away with a lot of clutter.

and i still say that the construction frigates should be treated as trade and refinery ships

any who that is my two cents worth on this subject

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lordkosc

Join Date 12/2006

i like the idea of fleet flags

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I like the ideas, heres another one of mine.

When you mouse over icons in the left selection menu how about having them bubble out slightly/get bigger. That way when normally not in use they're small and unobtrusive and when you want to select ships they're much bigger and thus easier to identify.

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The problem with basic shapes with this many ships is you are forcing people to learn a little symbol language.

Oh! Come on! You have to lean the "little symbol language" anyway, because there is simply no easily recognizable signs for scout or capital ship. And even if it was indeed the problem of learning it, I would still prefer to learn that "little symbol language", but at least I would be able to SEE the ships. Right now, I have great difficulty of seeing the shapes because they are so small and ... un-unique. I mean EVERY icon look like a slightly different spaceship, I have real difficulty recognizing and remembering the shapes. Make them larger, and make them simple and unique.

Look for the guidance at SUPREME COMMANDER. They have made superb job! I had no problem seeing, distinguishing and remembering them AT ALL!

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MxM111. Thanks for your feedback. As I mentioned, we will be looking at making the ships more exaggerated so that they may look more distinguished from one another. We hope to move beyond basic symbol style, which we started about a year ago - perhaps find an acceptable middle ground. Keep in mind that we have three races to represent. I understand everyone has differences in their ability to see objects on screen and we'll do our best not to exclude anyone in our final implementation

I would appreciate other people's opinions on this as well. Are other people finding it difficult to match the icon up to the ship? Can you tell each ship icon from one another? Do some of them look too similiar to you?

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i find i have a few problems.

First, some of the ship icons look very similar to others at a glance.
Second, in a group ship icons tend to blur together. This is the biggy I think.
Third, theres no easy way of telling a capital ship from a small ship at a distance at a glance, you have to actually *look* at them. Maybe capital ships should be brighter or bordered or something.

I like how the ship-shape (heh) icons actually resemble the battle, though. i would rather not have symbols... Though the point about how it was implemented in Supreme Commander is a good one, they got away with it.

This is just with the tiny group you have at the start. The amorphous blob on the right is a Kol with a single frigate. The one on the left is the shipyard with a couple frigates...yargh.

Maybe if they were higher res?

Or maybe frigates should be symbols, cruisers larger ones, and Capital Ships icons.

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Keep in mind that we have three races to represent.

Please look at Supreme Commander. There is no reason to re-invent the wheel. The ships icons should describe the function of the ship - I care less if it has similar shape to ship or not - it is the function that matters. Some of the parameters that can be reflected in the shape: Size (HP), Weapon type and function, Other special functions (like scout), technology level of the ship and so on. Again, please, please look at Supreme Commander, why can't that approach work here?

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For one thing SINS does a lot of ability use and operates on a smaller scale than supreme commander; the only thing it really has in common is zooming ability.

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lordkosc

Join Date 12/2006

I care less if it has similar shape to ship or not - it is the function that matters.

I agree on this point...

I suggest making ships auto assign to a fleet as they are being built, then all you have to worry about is fleet markers and not individual ship icons.

And for fleets with capital ships , put a star next to the Fleet Icon.

Similar to how it is done in Rome total war , maybe?

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For one thing SINS does a lot of ability use and operates on a smaller scale than supreme commander; the only thing it really has in common is zooming ability.

And as such, this zooming ability gives the common task - the need to recognize the units when you are zoomed out. What would you recognize better as an icon for trade ship, a dollar sign or whatever squiggly thing they have right now?

But I understand that may be there is a compromise or middle ground. The stations and non-ship structure, the ones that you do not have to move and because of that to quickly recognize, can be probably done with icons that they have right now. Only make them larger,and more distinct.

Also, it may help to have black or white contour line around the icon, so that when the ship is on similar color background it would be easier to see the shape. It will also help partially color blind people to see the shape.

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Mx, repeating what you said does not help, espcially for those who have not played Supreme Commander. Perhaps you can provide a screenshot or an example of how they did it in Supreme Commander? Because I have no idea what you're talking about.

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lordkosc

Join Date 12/2006

Here is what supreme commander looks like zoomed out...

I still think SHAPES > small modeled icons...

But maybe a white outline around them would help a bit...

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That looks easier on the eyes but Sins has so many different functions for so many ships I don't know if we have enough shapes (or if it'll be practical). All I see are squares, circles and triangles, but in Sins we might have to crack out the dodecahedron.

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lordkosc

Join Date 12/2006

A dodecahedron is any polyhedron with twelve faces, but usually a regular dodecahedron is meant: a Platonic solid composed of twelve regular pentagonal faces, with three meeting at each vertex. It has twenty (20) vertices and thirty (30) edges.

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Multianna

Join Date 10/2006

+10

I dont seem to have problem seeing the difference of the ship icons.. well for most of them.
I do have a problem seeing the difference of some frigats, when they are mixed with cruisers.
But for traders and cap ships i dont see a problem.
When ever i need some info about my fleets, i just hold my mouse over the fleet, in the empire tree, and i get the info i need.

But i agree, some changes could be done, so they are easyer to see.

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bear also in mind that at such a large zoom level, only so much information can be conserved. that means, basic icons for ship classes aka frigates, cruisers, capships, installations, etc. if you want more detailled information you have to zoom in closer and the symbols can turn into the mini models currently employed.

I know you guys want to present as much information at every level as possible. if a good way to do it can be found, the better. if. after all, when I start caring about indivual ships' functions and abilities, most of the time I would devote more intention to the situation and zoom in closer anyway. what I mean is: do you need this kind of information at that zoom level? shouldn't you want approximately what kind of ships you have in a given area? seeing at a glance "oh, i have 30 frigates, 3 cruisers and a capship there" is also a valuable information.

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But I mean, there'll be one icon for the Arcova (scouts), Cobalt (attack), Garda (anti-air), Protev (colony), and Krosev (or whatever, siege). For TEC frigates alone.

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That'd be adressed the same way SupCom does - (which the screenshot does not show because it's far too low-res) - Frigates get a uniform icon that denotes frigate, with a special filling that denotes it's purpose. Say, a stilized planet for the colony frigate.

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lordkosc

Join Date 12/2006

it was the best screenshot I could find in under a minute

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OK, I give up trying to insert image. Just follow the link

http://www.mypicshare.com/rolo5ozxpic.html

Please remember, because of the jpg compression, the picture looks not as clear as in-game.

Things to note:
A) Black outline of all icons, make them easy to see

The type of the vehicle is denoted by shape. For example a square is structure, a triangle with low side being horizontal denotes plane and so on
C) The sign inside the icon denotes function, "+" means ground attack, rotated "E" means engineer, rotated "(" means anti-air and so on
D) The number of dots under the icon (only one for all things in the picture) denotes the tech level.

It works very well.

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