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Nickname Nick

Join Date 01/2007

Fleet Machanic Redux

What can we do to make fleet battles feel less like trench combat

I want us to discuss fleet battles more thoroughly. Everything I will speak of is current in the Beta and can be done with many clicks and extreme oversight of a battle. Some of this has been said, but I wish to highlight segments to more fully discuss. I also have little to no programming/modding knowledge and thus may not understand the system fully with regards to the code and how all the mechanics are handled. Please correct me if I am wrong, but otherwise

ASSUMPTION #3: The fleet mechanics should be logical and require no explaining
So what can differentiate different ships:
1. How fast they move.
2. Rate of fire.
3. Range.
4. Accuracy. How often the ship hits its target can be based on the accuracy of the ship.

Thus far in Sins, accuracy SEEMS like it shouldn't matter as ships don't move and fights are motionless slugfests. At point blank range, accuracy shouldn't matter to lasers and the like, so only when ships flee and maybe first seconds of engagement.

Range should not be a cut off but a range in which degrees of accuracy are tied to distance. A max range/cutoff should only be employed at huge ranges (diff. by ship) whereas the accuracy is too low to efficiently attack a moving fleet (but what about a large fleet shooting long range at another large fleet from distance while closing, but I digress). Caps LRMs and other like specific role VIS's should continue to have longer ranges then cruisers and cobalts.

Rate of fire, in essence creates the ability for swarming, i.e. 1 cap ship kills 1 frig per second, but together enough frigs will kill a cap with sustained losses. But also creates need for maneuvering.

Ship movement acceleration needs to some how apply more importantly to the battles.
Right now, it is worthwhile to manually maneuver cobalts in a circle around a Cap so that the main weapon fire is distribuited more evenly throughout my ships. With no micro I would lose a ship as the Cap would hit one continuously. With manual one ship retreating and advancing I can sustain many less losses than if I had not micro-managed the battle.

So aside from the boat like maneuvering of spacecrafts, the fleet mechanics generally work. It would seem that putting all four mechanic together would seem to create an interesting ever evolving battle. Why are Sins battles currently so static? If battle movement was automated and simple doctrine/maneuvers for situations were programmable and user changeable (templates of some kind), less micro would be needed to accomplish my goals, i.e. even damage dispersal so ships are not needlessly lost.

Proper positioning should help fleets work together better, if for no other reason as all ships can fire the same direction (other reason include close range for use of support abilities). But if all ships just mush to gain firing positions VIP/S(hips) will be uncovered/within range of enemy attacks. Sure I can have frigs escort my VIS's but they are just near not defending/in between VIS and enemy.

Positioning needs to be a premium at the cost of fleet maintenance/time to wait so all ships move. A single fighting force, does not need to be a single block. Attacking from the front and rear of an enemy fleet SHOULD (and seems to) give me an advantage. To do this now does require A LOT of micro-managing, I'm hoping to be able to do this more efficiently. I'm hoping I can give basic formations/maneuvers/whatever so that order X numbers of Y ships of Z fleet to flank the enemy fleet and attack from the side. Hopefully the AI can do the same…..

As I said before, everything I speak of is currently humanly possible (albeit with A LOT of micro-ing) in this Beta. Let's try to improve the current system (and hopefully the current AI is just being severely hindered) with regards to what is in the game and not with more added on bonuses or complexity.
Or, don't listen to me.

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What you're saying makes a lot of sense to me, Nickname Nick, and I have to agree on most of your points. A game such as this, where the player needs to take care of a lot of different things at the same time, micro-ing a battle is not something we have a lot of time for. However, when we do take the time, especially for those important big fleet battles, the time we invest should yield noticable results.

As you explain, using different tactics to disperse the firepower of a single capital ship over multiple weaker but much more maneuverable ones can results in one capital loss and almost no frigate losses.

To me this says two things: The need to keep capital ships protected because it's a well known fact that maneuverability (or lack thereof) is a big weakspot of large ships. It's great to see this in place but I had already outlined in my own thread on how to improve this. Secondly, that more ship vulnerabilities need to be added into the game to make combat more interesting.

To support your wish to make fleet combat more managable and the directing of your ships easier, I would motion for a waypoint system to be used while you cut your big fleets into smaller groups in order to move them around. Actually having set maneuvers for your ships to follow is, I think, a little bit too time intensive for the devs to add.

There are a lot of ways to improve fleet combat, adding specific ship vulnerabilities that can be exploited by select other ships will definetly be the way to go. Hardpoints, weak rear armour and maybe even chain reactions or critical hits by taking out power intensive sections such as the engines would elivate combat by a significant amount.

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I have read your Cap ship post and I too think 180 firing arcs and spaceships that move like boats in water need adjustment, but I feel I made mention of thinking of this with the Beta as is in mind, and the to not discuss about adding anything new per se. And while I enjoy people agreeing with me, Zeroscape, I think you missed the point of my argument, over which I hoped a discussion would commence. Perhaps I should be less verbose.

Currently if two fleets jump in system they move to meet, fire when in range, and stop and sit. Or maybe the two fleets move in between each other to best get in range of easy targets (colony, cruisers, carriers) and sit. As far as set maneuvers, I neither think they need be so intensive nor that they are necessary, just one suggestion as to solve a problem. I was looking for other solutions to this current problem of combat, but perhaps I'm the only one who feels that way.

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I agree, the battles are rather static unless you're directly managing your fleet. The noticeable exception is the fighters and bombers, which are constantly moving. It would be neat if ships would maneuver more in combat, even if just for visual effect. However, at this point, I'm not so sure it needs to be a priority for the developers. There are plenty of other gameplay balances and tweaks that ought to be addressed first before they get to addressing this particular issue.

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Nah it's not that, but I feel that there's not a whole lot that can be done at this point. Most ships have forward firing angles (excluding flak frig and capitals). This means that they should be static in order to get a clear shot at the enemy. You suggest that there should be more movement within combat, and I agree on that point, but I don't see how that's going to happen.

As for missing your point, I got sidetracked in my own wishful thinking as to the benefits of truly making use of positioning, so I hope you'll forgive me for straying off the point in discussion.

Nevertheless, a simple waypoint system would give us the chance to direct ships a little better. Problem here is that once they arrive at the new position (side of the enemy fleet or behind, whatever) then they are going to be static once more as they try to get their forward guns running.

Should they start strafing targets such as bombers, then a significant amount of DPS would dissapear. If you've watched Bombers, then you might've noticed that if they chase a fleeing ship, they shoot their missiles a lot quicker and thus do more damage, just because they don't waste time stafing.

Granted, there are bonuses to strafing = less chance to be hit.

Capital ships with their broadsides tend to hold position because they are big. Although here I would suggest the devs add the ability of circling the enemy or perhaps moving just a little bit in a circular pattern as not to lose the target. The only other suggestion I could make for smaller ships is to keep the front to the enemy and also start circling. Yet I think that's just going to look weird.

It's hard finding a solution to this problem just due to the way the ships are built.

Lets get those thinking juices flowing.

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There is already a waypoint system in the game - if you hold down shift, you can queue up multiple orders (which can be move orders). I think this is covered in the tutorial, but I could be wrong.

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Multianna

Join Date 10/2006

+10

psugar your right

i think its in the first tutorial

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True...but what about a patrol option to turn that multi point path you just gave it into a continuous circle?

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There is already a waypoint system in the game - if you hold down shift, you can queue up multiple orders (which can be move orders). I think this is covered in the tutorial, but I could be wrong.

My bad

Thanks for clearing that up.

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I have an idea, how about somehow incorporating a more "broadside cannon" thing for the capital ships (probably mainly the dreadnaught and the Kol) in that large cannons fire very slowly but do good damage at medium range, this reminds us of all those stories we used to read, about pirates and admirals on the high seas and players will INSTANTLY make the connection, in that one momment the capital ship is transformed into a SHIP and not a TANK which is basicly what we regard them as now essentialy.

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lordkosc

Join Date 12/2006

Yeah , lets re-specify, we want LOOPING way points

Example, I'd love to set 3 points in the same gravity well for my ships to travel around the planet protecting the 3 space lanes...

something like that!

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Let's re-re-specify, we want LOOPING way points that ships can divert from if there is an enemy ship to attack and then proceed on the patrol. But it is more than just waypoints, Zero was close.

Problem here is that once they arrive at the new position (side of the enemy fleet or behind, whatever) then they are going to be static once more as they try to get their forward guns running.

The defending fleet would then move to get the better position. It would not be static, but ever evolving and constantly moving.

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