Superweapons

RonLugge

Join Date 05/2004

+50

My thoughts are that super-weapons ala C&C are a very bad idea. On the other hand, super-weapons ala Supreme Commander, where they can be countered are a very nice idea. In Generals, all you can hope to do is "weather the storm" when someone targets you with an ability; in SupCom, whenever a T4 or a nuke comes calling you either counteract it or loose the game.

That said, I don't see any way to fit those into this game as it stands other than taking SupCom's T4 and creating "Super-Capships".

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the way I have heard C and C works is that it takes a while to charge up, but either that would have to be a very long time on this game (prolonged movement time) or think of something else. Just as a suggestion aswell as superweapons super defences. WOuld work like this-

superdefences much cheaper than the weapons and take half the building time.
once a superweapon has been fired there is a dely between impacts during which the opponent must activate hid superdefence.
while the superdefence is active, the defenders fleet has a 50% weaker defence/shield/armour. this means that while the supers are active the defender and attack must field a strong force. the defender needs to defend his defence module (satellite?) and the attacker is trying to blow it up.

basically if the attackers manage to blow up the defence module while their weapon is running, the super attack gets through with a certain percentage of power, depending on how long it took to blow the defence module. however as a payoff for the superweapon getting through (either targeted at a planet or sun) the resulting explosions wipes out a large amount of the attacking fleet (and since the defenders are prolly gonna be dead anyway, it polishes off any of them too.)

this means that while using a superweapon fields a considerable advantage, it has a very high cost too. this would mean it would only be used as a LAST resource. this prevents superweapon spamming.

if attack succeeds-defenders planet/sun destroyed (yay explosions)
but attacker loses a large amount of fleet a)destroying the defence module
b)large amount of fleet caught in
explosion radius
if attack fails-atcking fleet screwed.
defenders have lost a lot, but not as much as attackers , since
they repelled the attack.

Notes
I am not entirely sure if the defending fleet should get a penalty.
the overall system means that although the superweapon would be long range it would have to be used as a cmbined attack with close range fleet battle to ensure it gets through

EDIT-wow long post.... comments on idea?

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lordkosc

Join Date 12/2006

+6

I never liked super weapons much, sorta the cheap way to turn the tide of battle, where is the fun in that? Especially if you are on the receiving end...

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tats the whole point of a superdefence- for it to be effective there must be a normal battle, its just that the stakes are so, so much higher... I suppose there would have to be a way of raising the stakes for the attacker, maybe f the attack is defended then the recoil destroys he superweapon, which would be a sizeable investment. maybe the same as 100 or 1000 capital ships (since I havendt been able to play yet cant offer a more accurate price range.)

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the only problem is that if the SupWep can target, say planets 3-4 jumps away
the reciving player would have to build SupDef on all venerable planets so as no to get screwed over

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hmmm that is a point...

OK maybe the defence module is not a satellite but a capital ship, this would mean that you would need say 2 or 3 to cover all of your empire in range of superweapon(s) the superweapon would still take a long time to build up once activated, allowing time for the defence ship to be manouvered (sp?) into position. the lower cost of super defence compared to superweapon would mean the defender could afford several of these ships by the time opponent could afford a superweapon.

if anyone has seen that episode of stargate atlantis where the daedalous blocks a solar flare from hitting atlantis it would look a bit like that

EDIT: the superdefence ship would have NO offensive capabilities as all nergy goes into shielding. the superweapon would have a longish cooldown time once used to prevent someone just using it over and over again if they manage to take out a superdefence ship. there was something else but I have forgotten it

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or you could have the SupWep travel dow phase lanes thus going through critical systems first so you could have ships stationed at all access points from the sun or which ever planet has the SupWep.

EDIT: the superdefence ship would have NO offensive capabilities as all nergy goes into shielding. the superweapon would have a longish cooldown time once used to prevent someone just using it over and over again if they manage to take out a superdefence ship. there was something else but I have forgotten it

and you could give the ship a second use.
give it a ability to draw, say 65% of fire in its radius, towards itself.
and because of all the power gonig towards shields it should last a long time and give that extra push to break a stalemate. and then end up being a must in a fleet other than just a planet saver.

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if the superweapon were mobile (so I suppose has to be in system to be used) then it would also need the ability to defend itself. sorta like the deathstar a mobile weapons platfrom thats pretty cruddy but capable of some nasty hits, until it uses its mega weapon of imminent doom (tm)

if that was the setup you could end up with a situation where-youd have a superweapon on the field and shooting all over the place, so you would send the super defece ship to it and draw most of its fire to protect the fleet. then it would give the defenders a chance to kill the superweapon during its charging period and both super units would be multi use therefore more practical. however a problem would be that the superweapon would prolly be destroyed when it fired, so would have to be cheaper, so would be used too much etc. 2 superweapons in 1 battle would not be nice...if your defenders get one then the other would most likely get through...

personally I think that stationary superweapons and mobile efences works best. if the superweapon has to be on field to be of use then it will be nearly impossible to defend during the charging period.

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RonLugge

Join Date 05/2004

+50

You guys should probably try playing Supreme Commander a little

In Supreme Commander you essentially had three "types" of end-game super-weapons to break ties. First off was the nuke launcher, which fired nukes (that had a horrible build time and cost) which could be shot down if you had an anti-nuke close enough to its target.

Second was the T4 "super robot" which could wipe out a lot of T3 units, but had weaknesses of its own (usually in the form of T3 aircraft, specifically strategic bombers, for the land ones) but could also be taken down by just spamming lesser units at it. But if properly supported, the T4 unit could turn the tide of battle pretty effectively.

Second was the long range artillery, that could shell a base from a long distance away. The only real counter was to destroy it, ASAP, though it did have its weaknesses. Spamming heavy shield generators would allow you to absorb its fire (more or less), and while it did a fair bit of damage its long reload time and minor inaccuracy (depending on race!) meant that it wasn't an instant game-winner, like a nuke. That said, a battery of several T3 base Arty's would general do a lot of damage to an unsuspecting opponent who forgot to scout(edit: That was true of all three, in fact... scouting the enemy base + having a couple dozen strategic fighters in reserve at all times was pretty much a necessity).

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Yeah, and that's what we need. A tie breaker. Not necessarily an unavoidable superweapon though.

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psychoak

Join Date 07/2007

+225

Dunov and Akkan battlecruisers don't fill this role already? Between shield restore and the later achieved Armistice on the Akkan, I can't imagine an unbreakable stalemate. Simply move your almighty army of doom in and armistice when you get in trouble. You can avoid static defenses entirely, and move massive fleets into a single planet while the enemy defenders are neutralized. Kill the colony, key structures, key units, whatever.

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RonLugge

Join Date 05/2004

+50

Dunov and Akkan battlecruisers don't fill this role already? Between shield restore and the later achieved Armistice on the Akkan, I can't imagine an unbreakable stalemate. Simply move your almighty army of doom in and armistice when you get in trouble. You can avoid static defenses entirely, and move massive fleets into a single planet while the enemy defenders are neutralized. Kill the colony, key structures, key units, whatever.

Even if thats true right now, that sounds like a balance issue that will get addressed.

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You guys should probably try playing Supreme Commander a little

In Supreme Commander you essentially had three "types" of end-game super-weapons to break ties. First off was the nuke launcher, which fired nukes (that had a horrible build time and cost) which could be shot down if you had an anti-nuke close enough to its target.

Second was the T4 "super robot" which could wipe out a lot of T3 units, but had weaknesses of its own (usually in the form of T3 aircraft, specifically strategic bombers, for the land ones) but could also be taken down by just spamming lesser units at it. But if properly supported, the T4 unit could turn the tide of battle pretty effectively.

Second was the long range artillery, that could shell a base from a long distance away. The only real counter was to destroy it, ASAP, though it did have its weaknesses. Spamming heavy shield generators would allow you to absorb its fire (more or less), and while it did a fair bit of damage its long reload time and minor inaccuracy (depending on race!) meant that it wasn't an instant game-winner, like a nuke. That said, a battery of several T3 base Arty's would general do a lot of damage to an unsuspecting opponent who forgot to scout(edit: That was true of all three, in fact... scouting the enemy base + having a couple dozen strategic fighters in reserve at all times was pretty much a necessity).

I was thinking the same thing. Supreme Commander managed to do the whole "super weapon" thing perfectly. I think the thing we're not realizing is that some of the sides do have super weapons, we just don't know what they are. The Vasari have planet eating weapons and a huge cruiser right? I could be off on that though. I think if this thread wants to be constructive though, we should start tossing out super weapon ideas.

I imagine it would make the most sense if each race had it's own unique type of super weapon. The Vasari have the planet sucking up thing, the psychic mind dudes have some giant capital ship, and the TEC can have a special ship that carries a true nuclear weapon on board, you know, one that wipes out ten capital ships at once.

I love nuclear explosions.

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Personally, I think that game ending/fleet devastating/total economic collapse-grade super weapons are a very bad idea.
However, I do like the idea of super weapons on a smaller scale, provided that they are likely one-use, expensive, take a small amount of time to "charge" before firing, have a large anti-matter cost, mutually damage friendlies and foes alike, or is just an amazing buff that can be temporarily applied to change the flow of battle.

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RonLugge

Join Date 05/2004

+50

Supreme Commander managed to do the whole "super weapon" thing perfectly.

Oh yeah, I'm in perfect agreement with that

Personally, I think that game ending/fleet devastating/total economic collapse-grade super weapons are a very bad idea

Eh, Supreme Commander did it extremely well, in that the super weapons were potentially game ending, fleet devastating, and economically destructive. If you didn't have some preparations in place, they could devastate your forces (and thus end the game, but if you were careless while trying to construct it it would destroy your economy easily... especially if it got most of the way built, then the enemy managed to raid your base and blow it up before it did you any good. Frustrating, that is.

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That's one thing I have been looking for in my games, was the super weapon button. I thought I was just missing it, it turns out I was not. Even if we don't want the huge game ending weapon that C&C has, we could go with usable abilities like they have in C&C Generals/ZeroHour. The ability to open a worm hole to a remote system and jump in reinforcements instantly (instead of waiting ages for them to make the two+ jumps) to help you win the battle (think ChronoSphere from the Red Alert games).

I only recently pre-ordered Sins so I dont have nearly as much play time as most of you but I constantly run into the problem with almost winning a battle and knowing if I can get a few more ships to that system ASAP (no such thing atm) then I could win.

I actually thing the TEC has the starts of a super ability with Insurgency, except you should be able to target the faction or planet you want attacked instead of it just randomly happing.

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I personally don't like playing with supper weapons in some games but do in others. Still I love the idea of them. First its part of the fun and imagination taken into the game. Sometimes after investing perfect time into an army you have been raising from a little infant. Its nice to see it turn into a bad a**. Second reason is most games allow for them to be turned off. It gives you 2 ways to play the game. Long drawn out epic battle fair and square, or SUPERWEAPONS are on. They essentially give the game a timer. The game turns into a suspenseful thrill ride racing to get the super weapon. Its your choice. So if you can turn them off then why not put them in.

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Accutly I think the vasari should be able to make remote Phase nodes. TEC... honestly there current platform is good enough. Advent... meh, I know deathstar laser (Purity of light)

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Superweapons need to exist

While unlimited amount is debatable, I would not want them removed. And yes the end game weapons were pretty good in SC. Probably the only part of the game I liked!

Sins superweapons pale in comparison. They are not as devastating

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Superweapons

and their practical application.