TY for hte reply mate. I wasn't trying to imply that there is no customization, but looking at it I think that is what I did. All I was getting at is that there I really notice (with all the extra time) that there really isnt much Diversity. For example, I will use todays navies/empires. The united states is the lone superpower in the world despite the rise of certain others; the US is still really the only one, for now. As a reasult they can afford the high cost of supporting Carriers, while other nations/empires must rely on smaller Jump Carriers that support fighters of a less effective nature but still give a desided edge over fleets and nations without them. In Sins, it would be nice to see that kind of thing reflected in the fleet composition of the different groups but in a different way. Since the game has to be balanced, this difference could be done through Ship technology upgrades. A subtab to the Military tech branch for example could allow for upgrades to ships and Defensive structures while one on a the civil would effect the Planets/asteroids and Civil buildings. The effects would both change the ships/structure abilities/role (to an extent) and the cosmetic look of the ship/structure.

*Note that this is not with subfactions as I suggested earier, just additional content for the game*

We will use the TEC for these examples since they are what we have so far.

The Military Tech tree would allow you to build Military Lab upgrades (the same way we would build them, each upgrade requireing a certain number of labs) to allow for general lab directions, Ship, Structures, planetary, and Universal. From there you would upgrade them with paths. On the Ship line there would be one for Carriers, or Battleships, etc. On the Carrier line, the Carrier both Main and Light, would get options although the Main lines would get more then the Light since there are more possiblities. The Light Carriers are more for support anyway so the upgrades that they would benefit from are the ones that affect the fighters or things that would naturally affect all ships. The Main line Carriers would have access to opptions that could tailor them to the players strength. For example if this plyer has access to large amounts of metal but not much in the way of crystal, then research into armor, larger bays, heavyier bombers/fighters, and otehr things that would require metal over crystal. The same could be said for crystal. In this case you could say that players with more crystal access could research the stuff that would use more "crystal", ie Laser PDs, engine speed, shield augmentations, farther down the line a possible option could be a Large Combat laser turning your Carrier into an assault carrier.
Now obviously, I havent included everything about this idea since it would make this thing even longer then it already is, however it is clear that certain upgrades would only be able to be used or only a limited number would be availible for each sub category since each general upgrade to the main lab would count against your lab limit ( would say that the number of lab upgrades for ships structures and the like should equal the number of labs needed for the research currently availible in the beta, in this case 15 I think).
This would allow for more customization for fleets. If players played strictly by what resources they have, then you would see those with large crystal reserves may have fewer ships (or not) but better shields, faster/more manuverable ships and more energy based arms. Metal players would have slug based weapons, heavier armor and more ships and the like. If you have a large access to credits then you could choose. Basicly, customized fleets allow for multiple people that like playing the same race to have the same fleet base but totally different fleet designs and an overall different Empire feel.

Late night thoughts leaving me really quick right now so night all.

Take Care and God Bless,

Lharrs

I'm not sure I understand the idea. Can someone summurize it clearly?

LOL, I do tend to go a bit vague.

Ok to Ron, I dont play EE all that much but I follow your logic been a long time since the first EE.

Bliar, sorry for that I will try to do a bullet type thingy.

Background for the idea.

You Have the Main Races. Since the beta testers have the TEC, I will go with them. My start off point was that Altough the variety of ships are nice and the fact that the Captial Class of ships have upgraded abilities are nice, the games that involve multiple players using the same race ( in this case the TEC and all players) seem to be mirrors of each other. Keep in mind that I understand there will be other races and we may or may not have seen the full selection of ships for the TEC. However in the game when there are battles, you have your Capital ships and your fleet ships going into it.
These fleet ships are basicly all mirrors of each other with the only altering point being how much HP, SP, AP, and dmg they have/do. The Capital ships have their abilities which can be upgraded as time progressess. This is nice but it turns them into Hero classes essentially. All groups will have acces to the same ones and the abilities granted (given they are of the same race) but they are still essentially the same only changing a little bit based on the level. A KOL from faction A that has the Cannon mount thing vs a KOL from faction B that has the shield boost are essentially the same ship. Nothing really changes and there are always support craft with them (or atleast there should be).

I didn't/don't feel there was/is enough diversity in currently implemented for a 4X game desgin. The number one thing that I loved about MoO II was that I (based on my tech level and choices) could design any ship I wanted (even though not every option was balaned carriers = pwned ).
PLus if you looked at fleets in modern navies, they are not the same (although it is because they cost to much currency to but carriers). The US has Super Aircraft Carriers while most of the 2nd world powers have Jump carriers. These carries are far smaller then the Dedicated carriers ( although they can't be considered light carriers) and use either a ramp system or directional thrust aricraft (harrier) as there combat craft. The Russians have the only other really carrier and it uses the Ramp system with more traditional aircraft. The reason is because not all of them have the right amount of reasources to produce the same type of ships.


The Idea.

- With each race (again based on TEC) there are the research labs.

- Each lab will both Civil and Military will have the option to be upgraded 2 times.
*- The first upgrade being general indicating what field will be studied: ship, orbitals, planetary, and universal; univeresal applying to multiple categories (armor, weapon upgrades, etc.)
*- The second upgrade will futher define the path selected by being more specific in nature. Take the ships category for example, you could have Carriers, Battleships, Capital ships, and fleetships.
**- The Carrier option would allow for modifacations to the Main carrier and light carrier however the focus would be on the with the light carrier getting most of its support through the fleetships option and universal lines. The Fleet carrier could be redesigned into more of a Assault Carrier which has more combat guns for fleet support or with a beam weapon for added cap attack dmg, or with extra armor for survivability, or better carrying capacity, heavier strike craft options, etc.
**- The Battleships options would deal primarily with the the KOL battleship and others (if included) and with the main attack system of each capital ship.
**- The Capital Ships option will allow for research to be done that imporve you capital ships on the whole as opposed to individually ( this could include an upgrade that may affect each Capital ship in a different way but not enough to be a stand alone upgrade.
**- Fleetships would deal primarily with every thing from scouts to cruisers, enough to give your factions fleet ships a feel of their own.

- Each Civil/Military station upgrade (the first one) would cost an upgrade point, for balancing this should probable be directly related to the total number station needed for researching the stuff on its corresponding branch that already exists in eh game ie, if it takes 9 stations to research something, then based on the number of techs availible, each station would give you X upgrade points so nine station might give you 18 points of the fleet. 1 point for the upgrade is deducted forllowed by X points for any upgrade researched. Also, f you 9 Military Stations, then you can only have 9 sub labs running. The max number being of sub labs being the max number of labs needed to do the research allowed. In the case of the TEC, that number is 15.

- A very important thing though ( I would think) is that most of the upgrades should have some sort of cosmetic if not functional graphic applied to the ship/orbital/planet so that not only does the fleet play differently but they look different as well. Too much would make them seem alien, too little and you can see the change at a glance.

- Each upgrade made will also have a significant resource difference in it to further support the players decision. Sticking to the Ship upgrades and carriers.
*-A player that has invested early research and civil builds into getting crystals may have an advantage in crystals other other players that support a higher research rate but this may also have caused a short fall in metals which would mean the upgrades like Shields augmentation, and Beam Cannon, ECM Defense, etc that require crystals over the metals would be good as aposed to Reinforced structure/armor, Heavy bays, Offensive Rails, etc. for a player that has more Metal then Crystals. Most likely a player with more metal wont benefit as much with certain upgrade types like carriers for example as they would with the Fleetship or Battleship options.

- There would probably be far less points for allocation then places to alocate them to. By this I mean that those 15 military stations might generate 45 points while ther emight be 200 points of areas that can be allocated to. This could be furthered byt having focused reseach if you will. Research or what have you could be done that increases point in one area by X and reduce point in another by Y ie Carrier focus, +5 points to Carriers -7 points total in battleships or some such.



I know I had more to put down but it is really late now and my brain is pretty much dead, so goodnight all.

Take Care and God Bless,

Lharrs

PS - This would probably be more of a Sins: FACTIONS expansion type thing given the work neccessary but it would be worth it for a game wanting 4x status.

Ok, I think I understand Lharrs idea, but it's imho way too complicated. Also implementation of it would probably take too much work by the devs in this late stage.

But imho something similar could be done through research, without the need of large changes.

It's something from Paradox' Hearts of Iron Grand Strategy game. In this and similar games you have the ability to research so called "doctrines" which give certain part of your forces a bonus and certain part a penalty.

For example the "Carrier Doctrine" there gives your carrier various bonuses while it gives your battleship some penalties.

With choosing the right doctrines for your playing style, you can make your forces quite different from enemy forces by strengthening certain ships while weakening others.

-------

To adapt this system to Sins, we could have, for example, research a tech called Focus on fighter combat. This fairly expensive research would give you various bonuses, like:
- fighters do 15% more damage
- fighters accelerate 10% faster
- light carriers can carry two squadrons of fighters or one squadron of bombers
but as a penalty you would get:
- bombers do 10% less damage
- bombers have 15% less hp
- hangars have a maximum of 1 bomber squadron, the others have to be fighters
- flak frigates do 20% less damage

Or for example something called Long Range combat:
bonus:
- rockets gain 10% range
- rockets do 10% more damage
- reload time for rockets is 10% shorter
penalty:
- lasers and autocannons do 5% less damage
- gauss cannons do 10% less damage and have 10% less hp


Ie. a research would give you bonus in one part, but a penalty in something else. If there would be Focus on fighter combat there would also be a Focus on bomber combat giving similar bonuses for bombers, but you could only research one of those at once.

Focusing on fighters and bombers at the same time would be impossible thus. (Research wise of course. You could still use everything, just at a lowered effectiveness.)

At least, that would be something I would mod in if I would ever do a real mod for Sins.

Its more like the 'combat' strategy techs that you could switch between, IE ground Warfare, Air Warfare, Defense... it cost money to invest in one, and time to switch it to anything else afterwards, but it let you enhance one strategy over others for a cost.

What Ron was suggesting is more like how the leveling works, but more general; instead of choosing between abilities it would be choosing between one stat and another per unit group or perhaps your entire empire.

Its not a bad idea; the CNC switch strategy tech is by far the easiest to implement though.

well a lot of suggestions, I support the general idea, below a few options how it was already done:

empire earth: has already been mentioned, nice system, where you had points and before a game you could distribute them across various military and economic aspects making your own empire. costs for similar abilites rose geometrically, so you couldn't build a uber unit class with bonuses on each attribute.

the points to distribute of course could be achieved in game, but it seems to me it would collide to much with standard research as it is.

civilsation approach: every player has "traits" that give certain powers and a unique unit which is always a standard unit with some extra tweak or just plain stronger.

age of empires approach: every nation gets one unique unit, can't remember whether there were other bonuses as well.

galciv approach: a bit similar to Master of Orion and somewhat similar to empire earth approach, you can in advance distribute points to certain characteristics. also, in galciv you had various government factions, such as the military party, the industrialist party and so on, each giving unique bonuses. though I heard governments wouldn't be part of the game, but the general idea stands.

c&c generals I never played, only heard of it, but that approach doesn't seem too bad either.

other ideas: well, dedicated admiral units and planetary advisors that give bonuses in a gravwell are another option. you can recruit admirals via a fleet academy structure (which could provide other bonuses as well such as defenses or increased production rate for nearby factories) and governours via something else, call it university or whatever.

something for making the caphships more unique: instead of using the ability points for well abilites you could have the extra option of using it to boost stats, one option for a general boost and others for boost in firepower, shields, hull, speed and maneuverability, antimatter. that way you can decide whether you want to focus on a vessels supportive/ special abilites or whether you want a dedicated warships. has to balanced of course, but that could make capships quite different from one another. else you could make dedicated stat points for every level up and have players decide on which stats to boost at their own discretion.

but again, anything in that (i.e. making same fractions and ships more diverse and different) direction would really rock.

I always hated that approach. If only because the units were "random" as far as when they'd kick in, giving each empire a "window" of extra power.



I love this idea -- maybe make the "stat" bonuses take up less points than the powers?

Balance might be a minor issue, btw -- take a look at the "carrier doctrine" idea, for example. In a smaller grav well, thats just fine and isn't a real problem. But in larger grav wells, such as the sun, having fighters that are significantly more effective -- to the degree of being a "primary" force even in face of flak frigates, as Karma seemed to suggest -- they would rapidly become overpowered. The high speed of fighters already makes them a "choice" unit to police a star's grav well, make them much stronger and people won't have much of a choice.

This is a true statement, but other than a fairly select few techs (mainly ship hulls/weapon upgrades, main example being the LRM frig and missile line, a fair number of techs there), everything else is just little bonuses and doesn't really 'specialize'. One player could fully research the few Culture techs, and nobody would really be able to tell the difference. I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are pretty few techs in the current trees that really makes your empire differ from another's if you research them and they do not.

Or possibly add this customization to the "end" game "top" of the tree?
In all but the smallest/shortest games you can get to the “end” of the tech selections before the end of the game - effectively taking out the tech tree from game play. .
So what is currently lacking is tech for longer games . . .
Allowing a faction to keep specializing after they hit the current top of tech would extend the usefulness of the tree for a time. Without needing “new” tech . . also you can have it so you can only pick specialization at a time and have incremental upgrades for that . . this could allow some great diversity late game on large maps.

Thanks for the FB guys.

For now I have three notes to make hope it helps.

The first is that I totally forgot to state that my idea for the research would be to have it be in conjunction with the main lines. I prefered idea would be to allow simultaneous research of the main lines and Focus paths for your faction.

The second is that I agree with the idea of stats boost points and the option to upgrade parts of the ship at reduced value ie upgrade all ascpets of the ship for the 1 stat point alloted per level or get like 3 points to upgrade single parts of the ship for slightly more benefit. THat said, I would only support that idea in the current game design model. I don't think it would have much use if a customization system were to be added. Good thought though.

Thirdly, Karmashock got it it right to and extent. The whole point of of these paths, would be so that you would "overpowered" in that field. The idea is that you focus yourself in one area to gain the advantage. This would force you enemy to put research points into something that would counter or at least compete with your doctine. if you go carriers, then that player may go Fleet( frigates/cruisers). This would offer access to increased lethality to the flak frigs, and misslee frigs while giving a bit to the light carriers & the fighters they hold. So aslong as the devs can balance out dmg/armor and base stats like that, then the strat goes to the player.

An added thing for the IDEA
Each path taken for any line be it civil/military would offer 1-2 "super" choices ala the end game research for the civil and military paths currently in the game now. An example would be for the carrier path, that a "super" would be a mothership design (think the needle ship from HW). Another might be a Star Fortress for the Military/Orbitals path.

Game review thoughts
Something that I thought I would mention is that Land based fighters have alwasy been better then those for use at sea (unless the faction has crappy land fighter designers). This should be reflected in the game since the Hangers for te system defenses are stationary (like land bases), not hindered by the size and weight of the craft, and constantly in supply.

Other possible game ideas,

1) As probably already suggested, more cargo/trade ships in game and the addition of salvage. nothing to elaborate, just some debris that if passed by within a certain radius when combat has ceased or upon the activation of an ability, a certain amount of resources would be issued to the salvaging player.

2) dont know if people saw this before so I will post again. SDBs, System Defense Boats. Ships specifically designed to fight within and only withing a planetary grav well. No inner/inter-solar drives. The lower amount of mass could two possiblities for ships. The First possiblity would be that that space could be filled with additional armor, shields and weapons for the same cost as a fleet varient, or they require less resources and crew for porduction.

Nuf for now,
Take Care and God Bless,

Lharrs

E. G. you get 3 points instead of 1 at levelup, and while ability levels cost 3, the stat ones only cost 1.

My point was that certain situations already favor certain unit combinations, and you don't want to swing the balance to far further in their favor. How that ignores any part of the post...