I appreciate the responses and anybody who took the time to read my earlier post, and this one for that matter. First, I was not advocating excessive realism or complete disregard for it, and neither was I proposing what "I" would like to see. I have been around long enough to know that everybody has their own taste, and if it were up to me, most games would be much different than they are. But no game is made for "me." The viewpoint I took was: What will reviewers and potential customers think? That is what ironclad is most interested in because that leads to sales, sales lead to expansions, expansions lead to sequels (all of which lead to income obviously). So if anybody mistook my post as mere "personal gameplay taste" then you misunderstood my point.
So to clarify a few things and be done with it:
Ships:
ShadowHal:
"still, you need to consider that this will kill a lot of early game strategies."
Those are early beta strategies, not game strategies, sacrificial if need be.
SadowHal:
"there is a full combat oriented cruiser, in fact there are two. the kodiak/ enforcer are both stronger and much better versions of the factions respective light frigates."
I am aware of that. But I find that there are a bit useless in gameplay. They have a very high research level, and I found them to be only marginally effective in combat.
Warlocklord:
What you suggest is anathema to one of the pivotal features of the game - capital ships.
I certainly did not suggest that. I simply suggested that there be two classes of capital ships. And that the highest class remains the dominant component of the fleet and the engagements. I even suggested the armament of it define your fleet more than it currently does. As is the case for most games I have played so far, each fleet has several capital ships which confuses the dominance and tends to dilute their significance.
Warlocklord:
If you adjust combat so that Frigates evade the weapons-fire of behemoths, you effectively nullify capital ships as a desirable fighting force. Capital ships in this game are *supposed* to be effective - your suggestion would neuter them and elevate the tiniest & cheapest class vessels in the game.
I did not say that they should evade the all weapons-fire of the behemoths. I suggested that they evade the main guns. All of the capital ships are well armored and have additional weapons that would still be effective, sufficient to take out a group of frigates if at a slower rate. Recall that my reason for frigate was multi-faceted. This was only one of the points. The others were less technical, more gameplay related.
Maneuvering:
Wicked Flea:
The only problem is you managing them, however, this is how they would realistically fight. Lasers, missiles, and autocannons all have NO range limits in space. You want to talk about balancing, the balancing done is to limit the range of these devices for gameplay purposes.
No offense, but this isn't a naval simulation. What you say is true of the navy, not of space. You want to avoid fire like that in space and you'll be out of control in no time flat. I agree, NO ONE reasonably wants to sit right in front of the main cannon of a ship-of-the-line and be blasted to pieces. Just you try piloting a ship with the computer's help to take evasive action while traveling at >200,000 kph. Hard to simulate something we know little more than speculation about, experience is the ultimate teacher and we've never had a space battle like this before--forget Star Trek and Star Wars, neither are accurate at all.
No offense, but I am really confused here. Are you saying you are in support of realism or gameplay? You are going back and forth, so I am a bit unclear about your point here. However, let me say that realism is important to a degree. That degree is debatable. But in the interest of a wide audience of players who have different degrees on realism, I would say that "avoiding the main guns because you can" falls within reason while calculating the trajectory of a ship based on size, speed, distance, and computer computation abilities is much more complicated than it needs to be. I simply said: frigates should stay out of the way of the main guns. I did not advocate for anything more complicated than that. Ironclad is worried about making money, not realism, lack or realism, etc. Money is contingent upon two things: That the game is released, and that people are inspired to buy it. This game will certainly make it to the shelves, I was simply trying to point out the things that I felt would frustrate a majority of new gamers. One has to remember that many of you have been playing since early beta, and thus have grown accustomed to the game dynamics over time and enjoyed their improvement. However, that makes the game feel "right as is". Reviewers and first time players in the future will not have the same luxury and will place judgment much more quickly and decisively.
ShadowHal:
See partly above, more combat maneuvering would surely make the battles nicer to watch, but it would also be a pain in the butt if you want them to stay where they are (i.e. to stay away from gauss guns and the like.
Hmmm. I wouldn't want my gauss guns firing at their frigates if a capital ship is nearby to shoot at. If there is no capital ship in range, I wonder why frigates are there engaging in battle against a capital ship while simultaneously in range of gauss guns. It sounds suicidal. That is a strategic choice of course, but I don't think staying out of the way of gauss guns at that point is an imperative. My claim to movement was three-fold, and it was not predecated by the claim that it was perfect in all situations, merely an improvement over the current one.
Wicked Flea:
With roughly four to nine capships in a fleet of roughly fifty ships you'll notice this gives minutes worth of delays as the fleet sorts itself out.
Obviously the Battle Cruisers would be slightly faster and slightly more maneuverable than the Battleships. Thus, as it is now, the time it takes for the whole fleet to get to a jump point would still be exactly how long it takes for your battleship to get there now. No difference.
Weapons:
Wicked Flea:
First, close range, outside of fighter/bombers, is of no significance. Let me propose a scenario. You are a Kodiak Crusier tasked with distracting an enemy Kol Battleship. What do you do? Go CLOSER where it can get a better targeting fix on your ship, or shoot something important instead? Remember that in space you're dealing with hundreds of thousands of kilometers, even millions and billions, and the further you go the harder a computer must work to compensate for the size of the numbers. Close range is suicide against a ship where it is super accurate as a damage bonus and "critical hit" bonus should apply greatly.
If you really want to play the realism card, fine. At our society's current level of technological advancement, we have satellites that can read the dates on pennies sitting on the pavement. We have missiles that can be fired from around the world at land within 1 meter of their designated target. You really think this many years in the future, with the technology to jump from one star system to the next, that there is a difference for an advanced targeting computer to land a perfect hit at several thousand meters compared to several million meters? Or even several trillion for that matter? Hardly. That is not a rational argument. The accuracy, from a realism standpoint, would be no different at the range differences we are discussing. In each case, the weapons would be dead on every time. But that is not how games are designed, thankfully. I was not advocating close range weaponry for realism sake, but for gameplay sake.
Within the semi-realistic game world, common sense says that the risk of a critical hit by a laser at closer range is insignificant to the risk of a direct hit, anywhere, by a massive anit-capitalship beam weapon. Capital ships have other weapons. Am I talking about avoiding all incoming fire? Impossible. Avoiding the most dangerous of a capital ships weapons? Obviously preferred. And i said close range weapons would be good for a) more weapon options

bring some ships closer together for better visual effect c)allow for many more fleet configurations. Those are all gameplay issues, not realism issues.
I hope that clarifies, though Yarlen's post sounds very definitive. I wish I had made it into beta testing earlier, but I did not. My role as a beta tester is to give my input of the gameplay and technical issues. I have done than as best I could. I really hope this game turns out well and sells well. We will see what reviewers say about the ship selection and scaling soon enough, just a few short months.