Black holes and stalemates

By Gormoth1 on February 8, 2008 4:23:02 PM from

Gormoth1

Join Date 04/2003

I created a new large random map and started turtling for 5 hours (which ran out like 5 minutes - this game is addicting with a capital A, well done, Stardock!). Eventually I created such a powerful all-around fleet of captial ships that no one could beat it. I never lost a single captial ship, kept enhancing abilities to complement and alter each other ships' strengths and weaknesses. As a matter of fact, each time the enemy attacked one of my colonies, I simply moved this uber-fleet to the attacked colony, and 2-5 minutes later half or even third of the crippled enemy fleet limped out of there as fast as possible.

I do have a point somewhere - one of my major and most highly developed colonies was stated right next to a black hole. The problem is - you cannot conquer a black hole. In a late game, every time I tried to move my uber-fleet in order to conquer anything, a nagging empire kept attacking this colony with huge fleets. Whenever I moved my uber-fleet back, it kicked ass and the enemy ran away. Whenever I moved again to conquer, the same story happened again. Over and over and over and over. I am now at a large deadlock. I cannot advance any further, since there is no way I can move my fleet without leaving a flank open for attack by some foolish empire. I cannot let the enemy take this colony, since it will open me up to a quick rush to my home-planet. I cannot transfer my fleet through the wormhole by clicking on it. Does anybody know how can it be done?

Besides, will there be a way to disable worm holes in a future patch so I will simply move slowly and wipe any resistance without having to leave my flanks completely open? Come to think of it, though, there are planets that are sitting in the middle of the map with many access points to them, so this will cause a problem as well - each time I will advance to one direction, I will leave my flank open from another 1, 2, 3 or more directions. Do you have a strategy to counter this issue? I'm asking this since the defenses in Sins are, well, rubbish. Sorry, but they are. They cannot stand against a formidable fleet for 5 minutes.

Any suggestions, please?

Split the fleet or make a new one. It is the only way, trust me I've been arguing about this for a while in another thread.

WWW Link

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Why not try having a decently sized fleet at the colony that keeps getting attacked? Weaken your main offensive fleet a bit if you have to. Since it sounds like they are pretty darn well upgraded, you can take a small portion, a couple of cap ships and good number of frigates and you won't lose all that much offensive power.

Also consider building lots of hangers and defense turrets at the threatened colony.

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There are black holes in this game?!

That said, you can travel through wormholes by researching the appropriate technology.

I'm asking this since the defenses in Sins are, well, rubbish. Sorry, but they are. They cannot stand against a formidable fleet for 5 minutes.

A) The defenses are very powerful used properly -- use repair centers to back up the turrets and hangars to keep them alive.

Defenses aren't there to stop an attacker (not a serious one anyway), but only to delay him until you can get ships there.

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I was afraid of this - I loathe messing around with the frigates, they are fragile and constantly need replacing, and I don't like their firepower, either. But I'll try that, i guess.

I have many hangars and defenses there, they don't amount to much.

Ron - You are correct, I know this fact as well, but I do think that massive defenses should at least amount to something, no? Even being backed-up with repair centers doesn't help the defenses amount to much against a decent enemy fleet. There should be an option for some sort of an orbital ION cannon to be built in colonies, or something that will cause planets to dish out massive damage and for enemies to think twice before attacking. These wimpy turrets are simply not it.

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I play Vasari, mainly, so part of this is probably only doable if you are Vasari. My usual planet defence is 10 turrets, 5 hangers, a jump inhibitor (to slow down their retreat), and a repair station. I think that's a fairly good build for how the computer attacks me. One of my favorite researches, though, is where my jump inhibitor (I think it's that structure, anyway) can detect exactly what ships are jumping to that planet. There's another one where I can see what is jumping to the planets NEXT to the planet the inhibitor is built in. This gives a huge head-start to prepare for anything that may be coming my way. can build some frigates from a frigate facility that I woudl also have right there. The Vasari also have jump nodes that are basically player-made jump points. I haven't tried it yet, but if I have two large bases that are separated fairly far, I'll build one gate at each planet so they can share a support fleet.

The idea behind such a huge build cap is that you CAN have several fleets. One assault force of all your ships will eventually be overkill, and it would take a very long time to win on a huge map, if it's even possible.

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Thanks for the input, Skraatch, I truly appreciate it

Too bad the TEC don't appear to hold such a jump-node technology, that is really neat! I can really move my fleets around this way.

Yeah, I see now that I need to seperate my fleets and not focus mainly on capital ships, but I really dislike this entire frigates' babysitting. Capitals can handle their own, and can take care of themselves if you leave 'em for a sec, but frigates are annihilated and constantly need replacing.

Any tips on constantly handling frigates will be more than welcomed

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I The Vasari also have jump nodes that are basically player-made jump points. I haven't tried it yet, but if I have two large bases that are separated fairly far, I'll build one gate at each planet so they can share a support fleet.

It is a god-send to use those once your empire has expanded. Not only does it link far away worlds that are normally 4, 5, or 6 jumps away, there is a research that the vasari get that makes phase traveling along these lines quicker than standard phase lines.
Very helpful for moving large fleets to your forward worlds, or newly conquered territories.

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Ron - You are correct, I know this fact as well, but I do think that massive defenses should at least amount to something, no? Even being backed-up with repair centers doesn't help the defenses amount to much against a decent enemy fleet. There should be an option for some sort of an orbital ION cannon to be built in colonies, or something that will cause planets to dish out massive damage and for enemies to think twice before attacking. These wimpy turrets are simply not it.

The issue there is one of scale -- maximized defenses on a smaller map have a real chance of stopping anything short of an "uber-fleet" cold.

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What the others have said. Split that fleet up. Heavy defenses only need a handful of ships to put a stop to most attacks.

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There have been a million different topics about this in the whopping 3 days the game has been out, and yet I haven't seen anyone from stardock comment on the "coward AI" issue, and whether or not they plan to fix it in the future. It would certainly make the game 100% better if they did, since then I could actually have a good battle.

I can't believe an AI problem as ridiculously frustrating as this was not addressed in the Beta (or was it? I don't know).

Human Player:
"a hostile force has arrived in one of our systems!"

"Defend the planet at all costs! Send reinforcements!"

Computer player:
"a hostile force has arrived in one of our systems!"

"Screw the colonists lets get the hell out of here!"

"but you could at least slow them down..."

"Did you hear me? I said run! This empire is founded running away from our problems!"

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Another option depending on how the system you are in is setup is to simply conquer the colonies linked to the black hole.

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Personally, I tend to keep a few different fleets around, instead of one fleet of all capital ships. Mostly I've been playing TEC. Standard fleet build.
Starting(for planet rush)
1xKol Battleship
10xCobalt Light Frigate

After a small group of planets is obtained, and defenses are in place at one or two choke points.
1xKol Battleship
1xAkkan Battlecruiser or Marza Dreadnaught
4xKodiak Heavy Cruiser
4xCielo Command Cruiser
4xHoshiko Robotics Cruiser
4xPercheron Light Cruiser(w/all Bomber Squadrons)
6xGarda Flak Frigate
6xKrosov Siege Frigate
6xJavelis LRM Frigate

If you have multiple fleets set up, you can keep them located at different places in your empire, and if truly necessary for a big assault, you can combine two, or three fleets... but it keeps things more managable if you've got them broken up into well balanced groups.

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Another option depending on how the system you are in is setup is to simply conquer the colonies linked to the black hole.

Thought about it as well, but I cannot pass through the black hole. Ron said something about a technology I need to research. I look that up.

bonerfest, the problem is hardly the AI. It's doing great - it's constantly harassing me, exploiting my weaknesses and wearing me down, making me fight for every inch. I never saw an AI fleet simply abandon a colony, unless it was seriously outgunned - and in that matter, it's quite clever as well. "Live to fight another day" is the main principle here. Better to run in mass more units, researches and upgrades than waste units in futile defense attempts. It's a very cold reasoning when considering the life of the citizens in that planet, but hey, it's a game

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Thanks for the tips, Charnas_Lightbane.

By the way, which defense is better, hangars or turrets? I know I should use both, but which should I focus more on? My logic says that hangars filled with bombers should give plenty of things for the enemy to handle, no?

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I usually go heavy on the turrets with maybe two or three hangar bays. That usually forces the AI to attack the hangar bays which brings them into turret range.

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Hangars have more coverage and better upgrades for bombers and fighters in my opinion. Their effectiveness is lessened somewhat as Vasari because the Vasari take 6 (!!!!) tactical slots for a single hangar and only get to build two squadrons, while the TEC hangars are 4 and the Advent get an extra squadron per hangar.

With 6 hangars, I rarely respond to a "Your colony is under siege" message unless it's a big fleet. But pirates? Fuhgeddaboutit.

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I thought the Vasari hangars could hold three squadrons. I might be thinking about the Advent though.

I thought that you got one squadron for every two tactical slots.

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You get one hangar for 4 tactical slots on TEC, I'm positive. I may be wrong on the Vasari slots, my frame of reference is that I had to basically clear out half my hangars just to put in a phase jumper. But the Advent are definitely the ones with the extra-squadron research upgrade.

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I can't believe an AI problem as ridiculously frustrating as this was not addressed in the Beta (or was it? I don't know).

We had worse things to worry about in the beta... like there not being a (real) AI at all!

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Alright, I just zoomed out. And out. And out yet more. The huge battles I'm talking about, with the large amount of planets that I thought was really the large map, was actually a "sector" or "star system", or what have you. I have 4 such sectors next to me, all with their share of many many planets, and I didn't even scout half of them. And I'm sure there are more such sectors around them that I haven't discovered.

OK, who's the wacko that thought about this?! This could take me literally months to finish! This amount of planets is not playable by a human being! I never saw such scale in my life!

I'll go back to my "small" maps now, please.

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I'd like to shake the wackos hand. This mega game is excellent. Me and a buddy are playing a 2v2v2v2v2 on the huge random map and are loving it. We forgot to lock teams, however, so the dynamics have shifted quite a bit. lol

Is there anyway to see who is allied to whom?

Krool

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there are no alliances. only cease fires (since you didnt lock teams =P)

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Sins have a problem with scale.

It simply don't scall well. In Small maps all is fine and working as intended. And the game rocks. The problem is when you make to jump to greater galaxys/maps.

In medium to large maps you need a fleet in every star "or wormhole" and if it's relative big, more than 6 planets/asteroids/nebulas you probably will need more than 2.

Also planetary defenses are a joke. Even with patch 1.02 A planet full upgraded falls against a siege friagate raid if you don't have any fleet very close "2 average jumps".

So a relative mediu map, with five stars will need a minium of 5 fleets, that is very close to the cap "serius fleets with 2 capital ships and about 40-60 frgates/cruisers"

Also in expanding stars you will need aditionally fleet to work as sparhead. Make numbers with the actual cap is impossible even 5 star maps with more than 2 opponents...

And then about the 6 hours of gameplay the game bootleneck. All you fleets have to play the mouse and the cat against the opponent fleets and it becomes a rise and repeat. Even if you have the resources you become hardcaped by the tactical slots or the fleet cap and there is no way to make any progress in the game. And then the games become one of the more frustrating experiences than you can imagine.

Don't get me wrong, sins have been a blast i have been playing it intensively this week, and i enjoyed it a lot. But when i made the jump to greater maps it dissapointed me a loot...

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