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LordEngelbert

Join Date 02/2008

Superweapons

As i mentioned on the "Balance/Builds Analysis" thread me and a couple of mates play this over a network. We were having a nice slow paced game on a large map (the other players complained about small maps with lots of deception and trickery which is fair enough). It was all going good. They wanted a big map and I was Vasari, they also wanted peace for a long time so they could catch their breath, again fine, me @ Vasari.com
This went on for quite a while, i had all of 7 planets in a system of about 50 odd i think. I got my Dark Armada (DA) and i was happy just to sit there and research. All was good until it came near the time when battle was about to commence.
At this point my ally says to me:
"I say; LordEngelbert Dear chap, would you care to build some superweapons? I know that i shall be."
Taken aback by the mere suggestion of buggering up another fleet with one shot from half a system away, i promptly built 2. Joy. The other guy was TEC and he built 4 or 5 of their big WTF-guns.
The time for battle was finally nigh, we had spent hours preparing for a good old fashioned showdown. Like wise players we used our artillery, i thoroughly baffled one guy with my big guns and my ally destroyed their home planets. Sadly as i moved my fleet in (which lagged the game as everyone else was moving too) i realised that there would be no opposition. The combination of those big guns we had and some bad luck meant that nothing was left. Absolutely nowt. I had a few skirmishes but aside from that it seems the only actual use i had for that fleet was to fill up the car park outside my front planet (oh and look pretty).
Anyways, to the point. Superweapons. I do believe they are over-powered (though i may be wrong). The ability to build an unlimited amount of planet/fleet destroying guns in a stand-off like that is a little odd. Is there some way this could be addressed?
If you disagree about them being over-powered then fair enough, some might even say that i was daft for allowing the battle to get to the point where me and my ally could do that and that "pr0" players always finish the battle before it gets to that stage.
However, it would indeed be nice if there were some way of limiting them (perhaps there already is, i never host the games): If you could disable them or limit them to a build count of one. It would be nice.
In my view at least. I know someone will disagree, but i've put my point across, i bid ye all farewell for now.

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I've never liked having superweapons in games. If something's going to be doing massive damage to my, I want it as a unit in battle that I have a chance to see and destroy. I absolutely HATE having a nuke dropped on me, or something else that's completely unavoidable. I understand that I'm supposed to keep them from building it, but I feel like they detract from the tactics of a game.

When I'm in a stalemate, I like trying to find the perfect strategy to outwit/outperform my opponent on the battlefield instead of lobbing inter-stellar ballistics at his planets.

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I completely agree with _Zyxx_. I really don't like superweapons. I don't like the idea of having a weapon that can hit something far away with no chance for the target to retaliate. A super capital ship is different since it would have to put itself in harms way to get something done. The current crop of cannons/superweapons right now seem like they are overpowered, but I have yet to experience any devastating firepower personally since I haven't been playing online.

There definitely should be a limit on the number of superweapons built. My favorite games limit the number to 1, reveal the location of that weapon, and give a countdown until it's able to fire. That way you know where the shot came from, can try to intercept it, and the person who built it is on notice that it's visible to attackers.

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cool, glad im not the only one tbh.
i put an request in for v1.03 to include a way of disabling them if you are the host.

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Just an addendum: I completely understand that my own beliefs are not everyone's. Some people like to use them, and they were originally in the game. I'm not advocating that they're removed or anything like that. I would just like an option to disable them in gameplay for those of us who don't like them.

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superweapons are really game enders for long stalemates, not only that, they can take you out of a star system in larger games

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I completely agree a limit / disable option would be great. I love skirmish options especially in a game with no single player story some more options would be great like fleet size and make up options capital ship options or resource restrictions.

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I'm not a fan of most super-weapons in games, at least the ones that come in the form of artillery/nuclear weapons. If they're movable units though that get into direct combat with enemies I tend to feel very different about them though.

I don't mind many of them in a game like Supreme Commander, the walking/flying Experimentals mostly, the ones that are superweapons but also not just a big gun that sits behind the lines and kills things; a MonkeyLord leading a Loyalist charge is beautiful thing. Or even Company of Heroes features the beastly King Tiger and Jagdpanther, one time call ins that are Doctrine specific that really are close to a super weapon.

When I get steamrolled by an attack lead by one of these types of units, I don't feel bad about it, and often it's a fun thing to watch. Something inside me also loves either using, or combating a behemoth that is a true challenge to down before it downs you. It has an advantage being what it is, but it also is on the same playing field as all the other units.

While on the other hand, just being shelled into oblivion from a gun across the map or nuked into nothing usually doesn't strike me as terribly fun. It isn't out slugging it with all of the other units, it's just sitting back in some cozy corner destroying everything else, and that can be frustrating.

I don't think the super weapons Sins of a Solar Empire are that devastating and generally have limited applications. Aside from the Novalth a single super-weapon usually isn't even all that bad from my experience. Vasari's can be mean if you get hit with a shot right before an attack, and Advent can use theirs to spy, reduce production and be a general pain. It's when any of the weapons appear in groups is when things get bad, since the only limit to the weapons is the number of planets you have to base them at.

I would have loved to see instead of superguns to have a super unit to be used (one a game, King Tiger/Jagdpanther like from Company of Heroes). A strong, important, one time use unit, probably specialized unit depending on the faction that could be the flagship, the damage sponge and the battering ram of a fleet, not just big guns sitting at planets. But it's far too late in the game (no pun intended) to realistically expect any type of change like that.

It would be nice though for an option to remove the big guns if they're not your style.

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The point of superweapons is to do exactly what you hate. while they are cheap, it allows a bit of urgency to the game. If you could just sit in a system building cruiser after cruiser, nothing would happen. You would have a stalemate. While they are powerful, they are the highest degree of tech, and very expensive. YOU could build a fleet of ships to take them out for the same cost. While I think that a timer should be added to show opponents when they are read to fire,they should remain in the game. Besides their great if you have them,and for turtling against massive amounts of enemy ships, if your outnumbered.

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I think that there should be a broadcast warning when someone begins construction of a superweapon... and the construction time should be increased significantly.

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I agree with zyxx.

I would prefer some titan ship to a superweapon structure that can be right at the back of the enemies empire, which could be an issue once they fix PJI and might be one of the reasons PJI are so obsolete in the current version.

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It's exactly the reason why they nerfed PJI's, you got it dead on.

Another idea - make superweapons a capital ship.

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yeah their should be building timer like in command and conquer 3. Adding a larger more powerful ship instead of a super weapon simply creates the need for them. For those people who have played star wars empire at war with SSD mods, their are only a few ways to take out super star destroyer like ships. Bombers, witch are not really that good in this game, and are easily countered with flak frigates. And super weapons, which are harder to destroy and are practical if you have time constraints in playing. Huge ships replacing super weapons would simply make people want super weapons to take them out. Besides most people who complain about superweapons tend to get their butts handed to them by such weapons. So quit complaining, their in almost every strategy game, and will continue to be in the future.

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Yes. Remove these horrendous atrocities they dare name as "superweapons" (it's really just space artillery) and give us REAL capital ships. Not spammable, come to your death ships.

In fact, the game would be so much better if the Advent and TEC superweapons (TEC especially) were nerfed completely.

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Yeah but big uber powerful heavy units can be really annoying to take out. ANd anything is spam able, unless their are build limits. Then people would start complaining about those. Besides the capital ships now, are expensive, reducing spamabillty, and are powerful verus most units in the game. Jez space artillery make you have to be more devious, you cant just mass ultra powerful units if someone keeps nuking them. The universe is 3d attack from various points, deceive enemys. there are plenty of other choices.

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I beleive superweapons are fine. however I do also beleive that each empire should be able to build something that limits the damage that a super weapon can do.

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cool, glad im not the only one tbh.i put an request in for v1.03 to include a way of disabling them if you are the host.

I think the best thing is to be able to disable or drop multiple units from the game - say phase jump inhibitors, superweapons, etc. That way people can configure the game to play the way they want.

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Please put a cap of about 1 maybe two per star system. Seriously I once bored once, and built 27Advent superweapons!! I doubt you can get that in a normal game, (I was just goofing around with no AI) but I'm sure someone will try it eventully and everyone else will complain about how unfair that was, etc.

Oh and those who are curious the culture spread covered half the system (Of about 50ish planets) in under 15 seconds. But do keep them, because they break stalemates.

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cool, glad im not the only one tbh.i put an request in for v1.03 to include a way of disabling them if you are the host.I think the best thing is to be able to disable or drop multiple units from the game - say phase jump inhibitors, superweapons, etc. That way people can configure the game to play the way they want.

damn good idea, that way i could host and drop out them bloody LRMs.

Got another thing to mention. We just finished another big LAN (resi net is doing its thing) there were 5 of us. We got to the point where me and my ally were pumped to the brim with Dark Armada. We were facing a TEC and two of them other ones. Now after all is said and done, i held a planet on my lonesome for several minutes against 3 armies and other stuff happened they are claiming the Vasari are "Hax" due to the Dark Armada.
Personally i dont think so, it costs sooooo much you may aswell be crippled. It takes ages too and to be fair the ships take a while to arrive even when you DO have the research.
Also i asked on irc and it was mentioned, we have a big gun which is a "supa wep". the other races have big guns or some weird culture bomb. offensive stuff, deals death and stuff. anyways, the question:
Is Dark Armada a superweapon?
regards, LE

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WarlokLord

Join Date 09/2007

+19

They are an element in long games... If you find yourself in a position to be able to build a single such weapon, you are making sacrifices somewhere else in your empire to deploy it. Its a strategic decision, like any other. I would venture to declare that if you find yourself electing to construct multiple such cannon, then you are either a very good player or you have already won the game.

These facilities are extremely entertaining. Larger games wherein game length can come into play (and therefore these assets) usually consist of multiple star systems, and since the cannon can only target planets in its own star system, you immediately have an inherent limitation. There is the reason for multiple players to cooperate.

On the flip side, trying to break into an enemy system might entail getting a toehold in some no-name sector long enough to develop and build such an asset. Sounds cool.

Its a table-turner for sure. Its(they`re) supposed to be.

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im not disagreeing, but like i said, it would be nice to have the issue of being able to build unlimited amounts addressed. Just to be able to turn them off or limit them would be good. No nerfing, leave them be, if ppl want to use them then its fine by me, i just want to be able to choose.

Also im told that the TEC can fire across star systems. Im not sure about that so dont hold me to it.
regards LE

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Just an option to turn them off would be great. Think command and conquer... when you make a game, you can turn off super weapons.

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As I've been playing the Advent, I'm guessing that my "superweapon" is my ability to fire bursts of Unity as it were and convert significant portions of a planets populace into my own allegiance... to that end, I cant kill anything.

I have yet to play Vasari or TEC... what all do their superweapons do? From what I'm gathering one nukes a entire world and one nukes the fleet in orbit, or what exactly is it?

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As I understand it, the Advent converts a section of the population; hit the planet with enough of them and you can overthrow it. The TEC kills a section of the population; hit with enough of them and you kill the whole population (and make it impossible to colonize for a few minutes). The Vasari one...stuns all the ships in orbit for maybe 20 seconds and does a marginal amount of damage. If I'm not mistaken you'd need more than 4 shots just to kill any frigates in orbit. It strikes me as being the most underpowered of the group, given that they all cost the same.

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Superweapsons are fine, just have an option to disable it (like Supreme Commander does).

SINS won't be the same without it!

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They have Dark fleet to balance it out

. Normal strat is to stun the entire enemy fleet and then jump in your Dark fleet which should be HUGE in size and wipe them all out.

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