Mac version via Transgaming's Cider?

kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

No, we are not going to make a MacOS version of the game.

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Thanks for responding. I don't mean to be rude with this question, but why? Stuff like Transgaming is made around the idea that it takes little effort for a developer to port a game to MacOS and it is mainly just a wrapper that handles all the hard work. There is no separate codebase to maintain or special patches to push, you just press button and get MacOS game, more or less, as Transgaming's stuff wraps all the Windows API calls to MacOS ones.

I really don't intend to be rude here but I know that Cider works, using the hack documented http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=362807 you can use the Myst Uru demo to provide a basic cider framework and just load Sins of a Solar Empire into it, it loads and runs with a few font and sound bugs, but I'm sure someone with an actual Cider SDK and not a pile of hacked files could fix those problems in about 20 minutes.

Edit: Scratch the audio comment, audio works just fine, I just need to learn to use non-shitty speakers. The only real bug is the custom fonts used by the game don't show up.

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No, we are not going to make a MacOS version of the game.

Thanks for being honest. I'll honestly tell you I won't be buying your product -- DESPITE my ability to run it.

See, I don't like XP, I never have. Used it to play games. I TRIED Vista, watched my games run much slower. This process is over for me. Now I have three Intel Macs that are MAC-ONLY. I can play Blizzard's games, and let's be honest -- Sins has been successful, but we all know the impending Starcraft 2 will be just as long-lived, and more so, than a 4X hybrid.

As Qapf stated, Cider is an awesome technology. Aspyr and other port firms exist. Not exploring these options and implementing a plan to gain MORE market-share is just silly. You do realize Gartner predicts the US Mac market-share to DOUBLE by 2011? Morgan Stanley surveyed students and found 40% of those attending college intend to buy a Mac. As the iPhone and iPods keep selling like hot cakes more and more people are adding to that halo effect.

I don't know if its your ideology or what? Does it sicken you to have alternatives? Does Microsoft force you into exclusivity due to that silly "Games for Windows" label? Because I have to tell you, half that "Games for Windows" have superior console ports or considerable issues when you sit down to play them. I'm one of those folks who is beginning to realize "Games for Windows" is a warning flag. Oh well, either you guys change your mind, or you don't. Either way I stick to Civ IV, consoles, and pick up SC2 when it comes up. Plenty of games to choose from, now I know I can ignore yours.

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Tridus

Join Date 03/2008

+110

The internal conversation probably went something like this:

We have X dollars to spend on Sins at this point. Making a Mac version will cost Y, and we think generate Z in sales.

In order to make the business case, we need Z > Y, but we also need Z > some other use of X, such as building a campaign addon pack (which for $5 some percentage of Windows users may buy).

Thats just the reality of a small developer/publisher, dealing with a successful niche game. Blizzard games (since you brought them up, I'm a huge Blizzard fan) have a much wider appeal then Sins does, and will capture a larger percentage of sales from Mac gamers. That makes it easier for the port to be profitable (not to mention Blizzard has incredible financial backing and a license to print money with WoW).

Specifically, this is what bugs me in your post:

I don't know if its your ideology or what? Does it sicken you to have alternatives? Does Microsoft force you into exclusivity due to that silly "Games for Windows" label?

Its very easy to assume the worst about people, but it seems unlikely they're actually a raving horde of Mac bashers. At the end of the day this is a business, it usually comes down to money.

Qapf - That sounds really neat. I wonder if they could work out some kind of arrangement to have someone else do the Mac version of the game? Even if its not hard to make, it requires testing, boxes, shipping, and such, all of which create a financial risk. If that risk were offloaded somehow, I think they'd be crazy not to look at it.

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A number of years ago I was quite gung-ho about Linux, and was really with the community that was pushing for Linux games. It was going well for a while when Loki was in business. They put out a Quake 3 box, Alpha Centauri was Linux native, Epic was putting Unreal Tournament on Linux and stuck it in the Windows box, Descent 3 had a Linux box, and Wine and the Transgaming guys were doing a decent job getting non Linux native stuff working (Half-Life, Counter-Strike). It was all good. Until it didn't make any money for anybody, Loki went bankrupt, and it all went away.

Now Macs are probably more numerous than Linux, but there are still very few compared to Windows boxes, so the economics still holds true. I don't blame Stardock and Ironclad for not making the game for Linux (if they did I'd buy it in an instant, even though I already own a Windows copy), and you shouldn't blame them for non-Mac for the same reasons. I'm a hardcore gamer, so I suffer with Windows for my gaming even though I prefer to support Linux overall.

On a side note, even though the Transgaming stuff is neat, I personally would fight for Linux and Mac native. Doing all that translation just has to affect performance.

On a second side note, when I read they were going to create the Cider product, but not make it available to the general public to use for any PC game they buy off the shelf, I was disappointed. Glad to see someone has figured out a workaround.

-HM

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I found this fairly recent interview with Ironclad saying they're considering a Mac port:

Ironclad Interview

-HM

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They were given a month to explain why. The U.S. Mac market isn't a small thing, its millions of machines. The world market is only 3%, yes, but the mac games market has proved itself large enough to continue supporting ports. Blizzard has even given Mac users features ABOVE that of the PC market, we've had a lifetime of support from them. An answer as to why there isn't a translated version of Sins for the Mac isn't unreasonable.

Our market continues to grow, 4Q 2007 shipments were a testament to this. The latest NPD numbers were also outstanding for the Mac. Its no longer a niche machine, the image of Windows is greatly eroding and students, the young crowd that Stardock should be courting, are rapidly seeing the Mac in a whole new light.

I didn't assume the worst of the folks at Stardock, but I did ask them if thats the case. So many people are zealous to bash the Mac for very little reasons (given, Apple's advertising at times is misleading and prodding).

I just want to see a small company, with a game getting rave reviews, take the initiative to support customers who are fighting back against a monopoly. Finally for many people there is a choice in operating systems and I think giving customers a chance to run a product outside of dual-boot or a hack would lengthen their time in the limelight.

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I found this fairly recent interview with Ironclad saying they're considering a Mac port:Ironclad Interview-HM

Whoa, I missed that interview, but it was added 3 days prior to them saying "No, we are not going to make a MacOS version of the game." So what's up, Stardock/Ironclad?

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Again, we must remind that Ironclad is the publisher, not Stardock, and they will have the most say as to whether the game comes to Mac. And remember, they are very small. A bug (but a very l33t bug!) compared to Blizzard. You just can't compare Blizzard doing Mac work and Ironclad. Resource differences are huge.

Kryo does support for Stardock, so he may or may not know what Ironclad is thinking. If you're a bit patient, with luck, Brandon or Craig (the people interviewed) will see this post and answer directly in here. They do visit the boards and answer questions frequently (but may be currently overwhelmed since version 1.04 is so close to release).

-HM

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It's worth noting that they wouldn't just have to port Sins - they would need to port at least Impulse over as well. At that point Stardock may just figure it's too much trouble. I'd say it definitely should come down to what they think would make money, and be worth any extra headaches, rather than just ideology.

I say that as a Mac user from the first year the machine was released, and a gamer through-and-through (Radical Castle, yay!). It's fair to be a partisan where the platforms are concerned, but there's nowhere near enough of a Mac gaming base yet that anyone should hold it against an independent game publisher when they don't want to expand to the Mac just yet. Their survival as a company depends on making money from their games, and making money from a Mac release, while probable, would require more effort to jump into (since they'd need to deal with support on that platform, as well as figure out where to spend their advertising money to be effective).

No port, even through Cider, is going to be good enough for commercial release with just a wave of a wand. It would take time to test, tweak, and debug the game. Stardock isn't EA, they're not big enough to eat a loss if an experiment with the Mac goes awry. Keep whining at them, is my recommendation (that they read the posts in the forum is a clear indication that they enjoy reading whines

), but don't get mad if they don't feel they have the resources to devote to supporting a Mac port of Sins.

(Though I will add that Political Machine seems like a game that would be very well-suited to the Mac market, and might make for a safer and cheaper experiment, if Stardock is feeling daring...)

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Again, we must remind that Ironclad is the publisher

Developer

I know that's what you meant, but to eliminate the confusion.

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I don't know how Ironclad's contract with Stardock works. It's possible they wouldn't publish (many games that are on PC and Mac have different publishers) if they decided to do a Mac port, so that SDC and Impulse wouldn't have to be used. It's also possible if they go Mac and keep Stardock as a publisher, that Stardock chooses to have Sins for Mac work independently of SDC and Impulse.

But this is all way too speculative.

-HM

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

I don't know if its your ideology or what? Does it sicken you to have alternatives?

That's a pretty insulting assumption. A number of people at Stardock own Macs. It's mostly just a matter of cost versus return--it may be growing, but the Mac market is still small, and the Mac gamers market even smaller. On top of that, Transgaming would want a cut of the sales, as would Apple probably as well (and not an inconsequential one either, IIRC). So in order for such a port to be worthwhile, you've got to be *really* sure it's going to sell *very* well.

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

Whoa, I missed that interview, but it was added 3 days prior to them saying "No, we are not going to make a MacOS version of the game." So what's up, Stardock/Ironclad?

The interview may have been conducted prior, but it hadn't been published yet, and as such only Blair and the guys there knew what was said. I can't speak for any plans Blair might have or have tossed around at IC, but we still haven't got any plans on our end for such that I'm aware of (as noted by others, the entire infrastructure we use is windows based--SDC/Impulse use windows-native stuff, Safari is not specifically supported by the forums, etc).

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I don't know if its your ideology or what? Does it sicken you to have alternatives?That's a pretty insulting assumption. A number of people at Stardock own Macs. It's mostly just a matter of cost versus return--it may be growing, but the Mac market is still small, and the Mac gamers market even smaller. On top of that, Transgaming would want a cut of the sales, as would Apple probably as well (and not an inconsequential one either, IIRC). So in order for such a port to be worthwhile, you've got to be *really* sure it's going to sell *very* well.

Again, I was honestly asking the question, it wasn't an assumption. That's why another question followed it. So how much exactly are these cuts? Have you guys looked into this yet? The aforementioned interview gives me some hope. If the hack works as well as people are claiming, then perhaps a Transgaming port could be available by say, the back-to-school or Christmas seasons?

I'd say most Mac users are starving for games, its also constantly the sticking point for those on the verge of switching. I'd like to hear you guys come out and state "its just not feasible" and allude to the hang-up. There are so many small mac developers, I honestly can't see how Apple would be the major sticking point. Transgaming I could see. I'd also like to hear about firms such as Aspyr, I believe they share quite a bit of the risk.

Didn't mean to insult you or anyone else Kryo, was honestly curious if that was the catch. Again, it wasn't an assumption. Just hearing "No, we are not going to make a MacOS version of the game." and no reasoning a month after Qapf asked made me very curious.

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Oops; thank to Annatar for fixing my typo. I'm writing too fast and too much.

I think it's way too optimistic to expect that there would be a Mac version of the game by the end of the year, considering it was only one interview where the brothers tossed out the possibility of it happening. Right now I suspect they're far too busy with the patching, plus thinking about an expansion, since the game is selling incredibly well.

And kryo makes a good point about the website. If Stardock was to publish a Sins for Mac, then a good deal of work would have to be done to ensure that the web site works properly with the popular Mac web browsers (Safari), which apparently as of now it does not.

If you really want the game, just install Bootcamp and dual boot. I have no love for Windows either, but I just don't think you're going to see an influx of games for Mac, especially from the smaller developers, anytime soon. If gaming's important to you, you have to go to where the games are.

-HM

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Tridus

Join Date 03/2008

+110

I have no love for Windows either, but I just don't think you're going to see an influx of games for Mac, especially from the smaller developers, anytime soon. If gaming's important to you, you have to go to where the games are.-HM

Unfortunately, if the idea of being able to game on your Mac without Windows is important to you, this is counter-productive. Mac users who complain but then buy the Windows version anyway don't really help their cause out, since to the game developer its still a Windows sale.

What game developers need to see to make more Mac versions of games is a large market of Mac gamers who would buy a Mac version, but won't buy a Windows version. A large pool of Mac gamers who all buy the Windows version isn't an incentive to make a Mac version.

(As another note on Blizzard, they also know in advance they're making Mac versions, so they plan ahead. Some of the expense can be saved when you do things like ship Mac versions on the same disks as Windows versions, which since Sins is already out can't be done here.)

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This isn't going to happen. As I said earlier, I was all for it in Linux, and proudly bought Linux ports. But the user base wasn't enough to justify the games being made, so after a couple of years it dried up. I believe the same is mostly true for Macs. There aren't enough Mac users, and the gamers who own Macs is even smaller, so you aren't going to see a lot of developers bothering.

The only way this is going to change is if Apple manages to get a humongous number of people to buy Macs in the next few years (hint to Apple: try lowering the price).

-HM

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If Stardock was to publish a Sins for Mac, then a good deal of work would have to be done to ensure that the web site works properly with the popular Mac web browsers (Safari), which apparently as of now it does not.If you really want the game, just install Bootcamp and dual boot. I have no love for Windows either, but I just don't think you're going to see an influx of games for Mac, especially from the smaller developers, anytime soon. If gaming's important to you, you have to go to where the games are.-HM

Mac Gamer (and Web Developer) Here...

Well, for one, if your website doesn't work in Safari by default - you're coding it horrendously wrong to begin with. WebKit has the most accurate HTML engine around right now so unless you are doing something horrendously erroneous and non-standard then yeah it might break. Any good developer worth their salt will have a site working fine in WebKit/Mozilla/Opera pretty easily and then tweak it for the vastly inferior IE engine. The only other thing that might be concerning is if there are some kind of strange plug-ins you need for the site to work which doesn't really make much sense to begin with unless the game interacts with your browser.

Second, believe it or not there is a healthy market for Mac games. Especially smaller developers who can often get a lot more notice for a game being cross platform (see GarageGames...) Even then, there are other companies you can talk with to port your game for you and which at that point its almost like free money.

Personally, I would really really hope that if a port ever happened (which it doesn't seem like Stardock has ever had any inclination to do for any of its games - which is a shame) it wouldn't use Cider as Cider games are often very buggy due to not being Mac native. Hell, EVE Online uses Cider and there are still dialogs to pic a DirectX version in the options... surely you are joking CCP...

I'd love a native Mac port of Sins and would buy it day one, I really wish you'd look to other porting companies to do the job. I don't make your business decisions though, all I can do is choose to not buy the Windows version and stick to native games. If I really wanted to, and maybe I will if I find the game cheap enough in stores, I can try getting it up and running in WINE or CrossOver Games but thats not something I'll bother with for a full price game.

To be honest, I don't know why more companies don't try to cultivate the extremely loyal nature of most Mac users and be one of the first to stop treating Macs as 2nd class citizens but then again a lot of people are locked down by proprietary Microsoft tech so they often can't help it.

Another thing: saying that there are "no Mac gamers" isn't true otherwise there wouldn't always be people wondering about a port. Similarly, while Macs might be pricy their sales are [url=http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/03/26/mac-sales-rising-in-a-falling-market]far outpacing the declining PC market[/url] so that percentage of potential users you miss or blow off is growing pretty rapidly all the time.

I don't pay the premium of a Mac to boot into Windows, so I will just have to deal with not having your game available to play. We both made our choice and there isn't anything worth yelling about but the realities are not so stereotypical. Similarly, Apple does NOT take a percentage of your profit as there is no cost to develop for a Mac (in fact, the development tools are 100% free and included with every copy of the OS) Transgaming definitely will, which its a better deal to go with a real Mac porting house (like Aspyr, Mac Play, Destineer, MacSoft, Freeverse) to get a real Mac version and have someone else do the work for you.

It is not counter-productive for Mac owners to not bite the bullet and boot XP. Buying the Windows version gives developers no real metric of the actual Mac games market (what always hurt Linux gaming that required them to buy the Windows version at retail and then find a binary online...) This is another large reason I decline buying Windows games anymore unless they are extremely cheap $5-10. I'd rather buy Quake Wars for $49 on Mac than pay $19.99 for a Windows copy.

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I'd say most Mac users are starving for games

Then don't buy a Mac. You shouldn't expect developers to cater to your choices after you buy hardware. If you're a gamer, the fact that most games don't run on Macs should be included in your purchasing decision.

You can also dual-boot a Linux distro and run Sins under WINE, so I don't see any cause for complaint.

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I'd say most Mac users are starving for gamesThen don't buy a Mac. You shouldn't expect developers to cater to your choices after you buy hardware. If you're a gamer, the fact that most games don't run on Macs should be included in your purchasing decision.You can also dual-boot a Linux distro and run Sins under WINE, so I don't see any cause for complaint.

You're missing the point entirely. The Mac platform is rapidly expanding... according to NPD data as reported by FORTUNE while the US desktop sales declined 5% year-to-year from Feb 2007 (newest data), Macs INCREASED 55%. Similarly, notebooks increased 20% while Mac portables increased 64%. This is an expanding platform and more and more consumers are choosing to abandon the monopoly.

Developers should be rushing to secure their place in this market, I'm making the appeal. I LOVE my macs, I took into account limited games whenever I buy them. If I want, I can install windows and play them (why Linux? Sorry guys, hope for this really gave out in 2003). I choose not to install windows and game via console or ports. EA is moving into the Mac market, Activision is working with Aspyr. I'm appealing to Stardock/Ironclad to join the fray, even if its just via Cider (yeah, native would be lovely but I'm not crazy).

The mac market is not going to expand by people sitting on their laurels, they need to talk to the developers and make sure they know there is interest.

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This is an expanding platform and more and more consumers are choosing to abandon the monopoly.

Okay, call me when it's fully expanded then. Throwing money at crystal balls doesn't usually work for developers.

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You're missing the point entirely. The Mac platform is rapidly expanding... according to NPD data as reported by FORTUNE while the US desktop sales declined 5% year-to-year from Feb 2007 (newest data), Macs INCREASED 55%. Similarly, notebooks increased 20% while Mac portables increased 64%. This is an expanding platform and more and more consumers are choosing to abandon the monopoly.

MAC platform is a PC like any other... my supermicro computer with two Xeon quad core, 8 GB RAM, Nvidia 8800 ultra 768 mb, 3 TB Harddisk is similar to a MAC PRO... only difference is that i have more connector and bus that a MAC PRO... and mainly that a similar machine by apple will be 300% more expensive... i have run the apple configurator and for a machine like i have, i go over the 15000 euro... with supermicro, i was at 5000 euro !!!

Developers should be rushing to secure their place in this market, I'm making the appeal. I LOVE my macs, I took into account limited games whenever I buy them. If I want, I can install windows and play them (why Linux? Sorry guys, hope for this really gave out in 2003).

Yep, all machine are identic now... the difference is the operating system...

But what is the OSX from the MAC... OSX is based on BSB unix/linux version... Safari is based on Mozzila ( Firefox is part of Mozzila )... and i can continue... OSX is a system based on free code from the UNIX/Linux communauty... apple have add some custom icon, change a few line of code... and ask a lot of money for their little work...

From the apple developper site :
If you like open source development, you'll love Mac OS X. This fully-conformant UNIX operating system—built on Mach 3.0 and FreeBSD 5—bundles over a hundred of the most popular Open Source products. You can shell out with bash, tcsh, ksh, and zsh; edit your code with emacs, vim, and nano; and build your projects using gcc, make, and autoconf.

Need something a little higher-level? Run your X11 apps side-by-side with native apps using X11R7 from X.org. Serve your web site with Apache 2.0 and PHP 5. Start scripting with Ruby and Python, and build web applications with the Ruby on Rails framework. You can even measure your application's performance using DTrace from OpenSolaris.

All these Open Source products are integrated into every Mac, ready to use

Apple is more bad that Microsoft... Microsoft make software with a lot of bug but Apple steal the free work from other and earn money with it...

Other example is transgaming cider... based on the code of trangaming Cedega... yes, the windows game who can run now via cider on MAC was make possible by the several year of pay subscription from Linux user to Cedega...

Sins was listed in the list of request on Cedega the 28 feb... now yet enough vote for working on it... but soon of later, since sins is a great game, a future version of Cedega will allow Sins on Linux... once this have happen, in the next few days, a new cider version will appear for supporting the Sins

More bad... since Apple was not able to stop the OSX 86 who can be run on any PC, they plan to make a infineon chip on any new motherboard... these ship will be needed to run OSX in the future version... it is like that microsoft put a special ship on all new PC who obligate you to use Windows Vista... sure that it will not long before apple rise his price again for the future lawsuit... never forget the result in Europe with Microsoft who was obligate to remove some software from his windows edition for give the choice to customer...

Now Macs are probably more numerous than Linux, but there are still very few compared to Windows boxes, so the economics still holds true.

When count system by processor... linux/unix have 81% of the world market... Mac is not yet at 0.6%... Don't forget that a lot of developping country choose Linux, specialy after Kubuntu who was shipped for free... interesting for people in Africa without internet... more, the program "a computer for each child" have create a laptop at 100$ with Linux... a lot of server for the internet use Linux and Apache... without forget the huge computer farm who are Unix/Linux system... don't forget the numerous machine like your big screen LCD TV with record system, your new intelligent coffee machine, etc... who are with embedded linux...

For people who need a embedded operating system, Linux is perfect... money speak... if you sell one million of Satelite decoder with linux embedded, it is gratis... let say that microsoft ask a licence prise of 2 euro by machine, it is already 2 million $$$ lower for benefice...

Simply, Linux was not good for desktop... a few year ago, desktop was almost non existing... but all the new visual thing in Vista have already exist long time ago onlinux with all the 3D/effect desktop... before this, Linux was the first system to support EMT64 for intel and the AMD64... long time before the version of windows XP 64 bit... localization is great with Linux... you have all the language of the world... and some distro have some funny localization like old egytian or klingon language !!!

For information, sins run under linux... with wine... with some work... main problem was the xml... windows use his own xml and don't follow the standart rule... you need the Microsoft XML version 6... second problem was the font... all can be resolved by running the following script http://kegel.com/wine/winetricks after having installed wine... remain a sound problem... sins have problem with my system 7.1+2HD ... driver exist only for Linux... with windows, it is only 7.1 ... Sins send signal to my two high definition box and i need to remove the jack each time... if in my bios, i put on the option "discrete MTRR allocation" ( work only with Linux and machine with more of 4 GB, it boost my graphic card to the sky... when starting a new game, i have reach more of 1000 frame by second... it drop with time since the game grow... again with bios, put on the HPET ( high precision event timer )... it produce periodic interupts at a much higher frequency than a real-time clock of RDTSC ( cpu )... work only with Linux!

So, high end machine are made for Linux... performance are high... but gamer have not the money for buy so machine... same for me, 5000 euro is a big amount ( 15000 if i have choose a apple )... it is my 3D work and realtime render of a 3D world ( garden architec ) who pay the machine... of course, nothing prohibith me to use it for game... just finish Crysis in a few days with all at very high ( a tweak was needed to allow all at very high with directx9 since cedega is not compatible directx 10 )...

Now, about the devs of Sins... it is not their work of responsability to make a game run on every type of operating system... it is the work of the operating system to work together for create a compatibility platform... a example was the java language from Sun... in the begin, it was working on all machine... until Microsoft decide to use his own implementation who was not fully compatible with the sun java... each time that some standart apear, you have always a OS developper who will create his own version with time and make it incompatible with other system... if the creator of OS can work together and give to the game dev a standart format who work on any platform, game will run on all world computer... more, dev will be able to invest more time to create a quality game...

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I am playing with Sins of a Solar Empire on cider under OS X. I am at the main menu right now and there is some text corruption. Probably a few fonts and things missing. I will let you know if I ever get it working.
Update1: yep the fonts don't appear to be loaded in. I have played a bit, but am unable to check different resolutions and how high of eye candy cider will take. So the 3D engine appears to be working well, it seems quite responsive (on a early 08' mac pro) and I can use all of the normal shortcuts and build stuff fine.

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Well, Sins is pretty open with the fonts directory, you could probably go ahead and mess with that manually to get it working. I know people have done custom fonts already.

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