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zzSleeper

Join Date 12/2006

Effective DPS per unit of Fleet Capacity

This graph shows the average dps of each ship type verus every other ship type per unit of fleet space it takes up. These calculations take into account weapon-type versus armor-type effectiveness and chance-to-hit against strikecraft. DPS and Supply values from all three races are averaged for each ship type in these calculations, with the exception of Long Range - the Illuminator gets it own line and is not included in the Long Range line due to the different damage type. Values will of course vary a little by race if looked at individually, but this is certainly enough to see how balance stacks up.

I think the numbers are quite telling on their own so I won't draw any conclusions here. At some point I may get around to doing race-specific charts too.

Average EDPSPS
EDPSPS

TEC EDPSPS

Advent EDPSPS

Vasari EDPSPS

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Wow, awesome chart. Thanks a lot! Now I know why nobody builds Destra Cruisaders

Illuminators outperform them quite a bit.
And flak is worse against Illuminators then I thought ...

The Flak value there has to be taken by half because of their fireing ark, right?
How were the Illuminators 3 beams factored in? Is it times 1/3 if only the front beam shoots for those?

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-you based it on incorrect dps charts, as I have pointed out a twice (thought he would realize it and fix it asap) in that thread.
-only flak and fighters can damage fighters/bombers.

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This graph shows the average dps of each ship type verus every other ship type per unit of fleet space it takes up. These calculations take into account weapon-type versus armor-type effectiveness and chance-to-hit against strikecraft. DPS and Supply values from all three races are averaged for each ship type in these calculations, with the exception of Long Range - the Illuminator gets it own line and is not included in the Long Range line due to the different damage type. Values will of course vary a little by race if looked at individually, but this is certainly enough to see how balance stacks up.I think the numbers are quite telling on their own so I won't draw any conclusions here. At some point I may get around to doing race-specific charts too.This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 798x287.

Wait a minute. How are you calculating this? Averaging is absolutely useless considering the racial diversity in this game. AND, your considering that Flaks and Illums are always bringing all their guns into action, when it's probably not so. The Flak ratings should be divided by 4 and the Illums divided by 3.

Wow, awesome chart. Thanks a lot! Now I know why nobody builds Destra Cruisaders Illuminators outperform them quite a bit.And flak is worse against Illuminators then I thought ...The Flak value there has to be taken by half because of their fireing ark, right?How were the Illuminators 3 beams factored in? Is it times 1/3 if only the front beam shoots for those?

Nope, Illums only outperform Destras if they somehow get all their beams firing, which is impossible if your trying to focus fire. And on top of that, Destras are far more durable, have a better attack type(composite), and much potential for improvement through further research.

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zzsleeper I was just trying to say that you should use dps charts that are not incorrect in the future and double check what your relying on.

to tell if its correct or not, check entity files or sites that extract the info from entity files, like.
http://roe.totalgamingnetwork.com/wiki/index.php/Sins_of_a_Solar_Empire/Flak

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zzsleeper I was just trying to say that you should use dps charts that are not incorrect in the future and double check what your relying on.to tell if its correct or not, check entity files or sites that extract the info from entity files, like.http://roe.totalgamingnetwork.com/wiki/index.php/Sins_of_a_Solar_Empire/Flak

Thanks for pointing that out, I've updated the chart with the correct values.

...The Flak value there has to be taken by half because of their fireing ark, right?How were the Illuminators 3 beams factored in? Is it times 1/3 if only the front beam shoots for those?

The chart has been updated to reflect firing arcs.

Wait a minute. How are you calculating this? Averaging is absolutely useless considering the racial diversity in this game.

Actually, the DPS stats per ship are very similar between races so averaging has very little impact on the results. You could expect the numbers to change by a couple of tenths at most. The biggest difference is in weapon-type versus armor-type, which is why Illuminators get their own line.

The formula (for each ship type) is: (Average DPS) * (Effectiveness vs Defender Armor) / (Average Fleet Supply Cost)

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how does one calculate the actual DPS from that?
total of all banks of guns/dps?
can side guns shoot at forward or rear targets? and/or if you have a ship with 3 guns, what is the most it can bring to bear on any one target? 2? 3?

Just as a note, the Advent defense vessel is one of the best values in the game. 3 supply slots for lots of fighter/bomber eating goodness (which is also benefited by the carrier aura and the most common advent weapon techs).

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Wow, if that's right, dollar-for-dollar, LRFs are indeed most powerful.

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I have actually been working on a spreadsheet figuring out what is really the best unit-for-unit. I have got the flak, heavy assault, and LRM's so far.

Here are the top performers:
VS Light/very light
Advent defense vessel, far and away the best, if it can utilize all 4 banks it will do 7.4-11.1 damage per unit per second... MUCH higher than any other ship I have yet analyzed.

General dps vs all
The advent crusader is #1 for most damage type (not capitol, medium, or very light) against a single target, making this the overall best damage dealing unit 2.85 vs light, 2.375 vs heavy/VH. Putting this even further out front, it gets a 1.5dps aura, with unlimited targets. Against a SMALL (10 ship) fleet that adds 15dps, or an extra 1.5 dps/unit, ramping it up to 3.35. Against a bigger fleet (40 ships) it could add up to an extra 60dps, or 6dps/unit cost, ramping it up to 8.85dps/unit 0_o.

Behind the advent crusader the Advent Illuminator takes second if it can use all three banks of lasers, but for focus firing the TEC javalis and kodiak are tied for second, with the vasari enforcer following up for a close 3rd, and the vasari kanrak a slightly more distant 4th.

I will be very interested to see how the capital ships compare to the others. I seriously doubt they will be able to compare to the 7.4 dps potential of the advent flak (they would have to do 370dps total), but they should have a good showing.

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the highest for the battleships, minus any abilities or squadrons is 1.08 dps/unit for the marza dreadnaught, the lowest is 0.68 for the vasari marauder. (well the vasari carrier is a 0.42, but its a carrier) I do NOT know how these scale with level, if someone could help with that, it would be awesome.

In each class:
Class
Advent dps squadrons
TEC dps squadrons
Vasari dps squadrons

Assault
A 1.03 0-2
T 1.02 0-2
V 0.96 1-2

Carrier
A 0.68 2-7
T 0.66 2-7
V 0.42 2-6

Colony
A 0.76 1-3
T 1 1-3
V 0.74 1-3

Support
A 0.8 1-3
T 0.92 1-3
V 0.68 1-3

Planetary Assault
A 0.94 1-2
T 1.08 0-1
V 0.82 0-1

Assuming they all use bombers (because flak are awesome vs bombers and fighters, so why not) one squadron will add: (un-upgraded and not modified for %)

0.42 to Advent
0.3 to TEC
0.36 to Vasari

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Illuminators when firing one beam do triple damage (so full nominal damage) with it. So muliply that number by 3. I tried firing at a single ship with a single illuminator.. and it did full damage from just 1 beam. You can test it to be sure, maybe i did it wrong..

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...continuation of my last post...

That means, there is a point at which only including bomber squadrons and base damage (not adjusted for level) ALL of the carriers will do more average dps/unit than nearly any other unit in the game. The other cap ships that will get over 2.0 (not counting ship weapon damage upgrades because I dont know how they are calculated) are:

Advent Colonizer
TEC Colonizer
Advent Support

Tonight i intend to do a test to figure out exaclty how much the damage for most ships goes up with level, it is my guess that nearly all the ships at level 4 will be approaching or past the LRM ships, and ALL of them will be far past that by level 8 without even counting the bomber squadrons. Which makes me think that tactically large quantites of captial ships is pretty optimal, at least until you hit your max. It would be good to have some flak ships for protection vs fighters unless you have a cap ship that can decimate them all in one shot.

Though there are advantages to masses of smaller ships, AOE shield / hull regen help much more with larger masses of ships, and typically if you have optimal compisition of ships focus fire is much better also, as most cap ships can only bring 2/3 of their weapons to bear at once.

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That would make my "ideal" fleet something like this:
(for Advent, 600 supply, allows ~3 of these fleets), on the 3rd fleet just keep a colonizer and the carrier
Advent Carrier (passive +28%dps to EVERY (all these ships use energy weapons) weapon (shoot 22% faster))
2 Advent Colonizers (+25% dps of damage spread over everybody effected, and a 62.5/second shield buff)
Advent Support (Mind control and a passive)
30 Heavy assault (awesome normal dps +an extra 45 DPS to anyone in their aura, plus sturdy as hell)
10 Flak (super vs fighters/bombers, and very good vs other light craft)
10 Defender (helps keep everybody else alive with a temporary 33% defense buff)

Depending on the situation I may drop a few of the defenders and flak for more heavy assault

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crusader aura dont stack = (

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The LRM beats the heavy cruiser in DPS per unit cost though, right? If so, the system at least makes sense: you're deciding between dps per fleet points and dps per cost, and all of the other units are pretty much niche units to cover specific tasks.

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No, i was doing all my analyzing by figuring dps per fleet point cost. Crusader is top in all but 3 categories, very light (fighters) medium (basic assault ships) and capital ships. LRM (TEC version only) is top versus Medium and capital ships, though for the rest it is equal or worse than the kodiak, and it is ahead of the enforcer on half and tied with it on the other half. Remeber, this is just single target, if we count multi target the flak are BY FAR the best at killing lightly armored ships, with the advent one out in front by a HUGE margin.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p5EjdHbjA2sGremZHUXREMA

thats what i have so far, have a look

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My testing indicates the Illuminator can hit a target with a single beam, and thus only 1/3 of their full dps to a single target.

A ship can only bring a single firing arc to bear against a target. Actual DPS turns out to not be a very useful number. In most cases your fleet will be limited by fleet capacity or your resources. Since your income is limited by your fleet capacity, measuring by fleet capacity seems more practical, since it allows you to construct the most effective fleet for your capacity bracket. DPS per cost would also be an interesting chart to see, and probably be more useful in rush games. If you are really interested in actual DPS, I have an intermediate DPS chart which I was using to calculate the above results and can post it online if requested.

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Updated OP to add race-specific EDPSPS charts.

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I would love to see that chart your talking about.

Interesting results on the rest, the LRM is the only ship to get over 2.0 dps/unit versus capital ships. Though the kodiak and the crusader still stay ahead of it on nearly everything else, and are far more durable... still making it a better choice for most situations IMHO. Especially if you are fighting against advent that damage replication ability is a mofo if you have weak ships, it just decimates them, yet seems to be far less problematic against sturdy ships.

gives me more to think about... seems like the vasari got shafted. we should next do a chart with durability/unit too, and cross reference them, to really see what ships are the best. (if we could take abilities into account that would be rad too... but unlikely.

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What do you know, LRMs are good against everything.

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Wow. The Javelis LRM Frigate is good against everything. Cheap in terms of cash and resources, only 4 supply points, a Cluster Warheads ability for splash attacks, and potential for nice big damage and range extension research. Kind of justifies LRM-rush.

Another odd revelation is that ALL bomber squads are better against the Garda Flak Frigate than the Garda Flak is against them! The Defense Vessel has more raw firepower and the Junsurak Sentinel has Charged Phase Missiles, but the Garda has nothing going for it except for it's tough hull and armor.

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Yeah, wow... I thought LRMs were good, but that's off the charts.

zzSleeper, how did you arrive at those numbers??

P.S. By statement in another thread stands - LRMs are too good vs. capital ships. Low cost + long range + highest DPS, which is insane.

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zzSleeper, how did you arrive at those numbers??

DPS values are taken from the game files. As mentioned previously, the formula for the numbers in the chart is:
(Attacker DPS) * (Attacker Weapon-type vs Defender Armor-type Effectiveness) / (Fleet Supply Cost)
Against strikecraft is additionally multiplied by the accuracy modifier.

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I searched this forum for like ... 10 minutes just to bump this. Amazing post, I am saving all this to my comp for later.

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Yeah, wow... I thought LRMs were good, but that's off the charts.

zzSleeper, how did you arrive at those numbers??

P.S. By statement in another thread stands - LRMs are too good vs. capital ships. Low cost + long range + highest DPS, which is insane.

They're also CRAZY FRAGILE and the TEC doesn't have the option of a 5th type of cruiser for fleet variety like the Advent and Vasari do.

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