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Raging Amish
Raging Amish
Join Date 03/2008
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Your First Cap: Colonizer vs. Any of the Other Four Edited: 16/7/08

April 21, 2008 3:28:21 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Edited: 21/6/08

I've been playing this game for a while now, and I noticed everyone has their own way, as according to the forums and what I see online, they like to go early in a game for which cap ship to build first. Some like the Sova rush, others like a battleship to start, some prefer the Marza, and then others prefer the colonizer. After having seen and used them all, I'm throwing my opinion out there.

The colonizer is the best option for the first cap. People talk about how they only pick the colonizer, or only pick the battleship. Regardless, the colonizer is hands down the best one. There's a lot of things to consider:

1. If you don't get the colonizer, you have to buy a colony frigate, possibly two. People argue that the colonizing frigate is nice because once you've gobbled up your planets, you can then get neutral mines. Sure, that is a nice perk, but that takes forever. The colonizer's antimatter regenerates much slower, and loses 100 with each jump. Couple that with needing 90 to colonize and 1/2 antimatter point / sec regen rate, and it will inhibit your initial expansion. The colonizing capital ship regenerates 1-ish antimatter a second, and has a larget antimatter pool. Expansion is no longer inhibited by waiting to colonize.

The other drawback to using colonizing frigates is they eat precious minerals very early in the game. When you are only making 1 metal a sec and .5 crystal a sec, the 100-140 metal (race dependent) and 50 crystal that you have to give up for a colony frigate can really hurt early on, especially if you get two.

2. The colonizing cap has a special ability attached to it's colonize ability.

The Akkan (TEC) gives 1 free mine at lvl 2 and 2 mines at lvl 3. I don't consider this all that useful. I mean, it's a nice perk, but I'd rather have Ion bolt fully upgraded than get the small boost from getting those mines free and up and running quicker.

3. By expanding quickly with the colonizing cap ( as in getting your planets up and running quicker than you would if you were waiting for the colony frig), you are going to be able to afford a fleet a lot quicker. This is just common sense. You get more planets, you have more raw resources, your upgrading your planets quickly, and you have a much higher overall income rate. You economy is much more stable much quicker because you have more planets.

4. Sometimes, early game battles are decided by the accompanying fleet, not the cap itself. This doesn't apply after about 30 min, but initially fleets are so small (cap + 10-15 frigs) that the most effective thing to do is to micro target the opponents frigs, not cap (Well, unless you're vasari, see my post "Illuminator Spammer"). Since any cap can take hits from 10 - 15 ships for at least a while, it really doesn't matter that your cap is a little weaker than a battleship in the initial parts of the game.

I want to start bringing up the exception. TEC fleets just don't pack the punch I want in early games. This is the race I'm most likely to not pick the colonizer because the force of a Kol, Dunov, Marza, or even Sova can be much more useful.

5. This is the part that I use to convince myself to go colonizer. By expanding and getting an eco established early, you're going to make getting the second cap go much quicker. You can get a second cap if you so desperately need it, and by going with the colonizer early, the second cap will come much quicker.

I love the colonizer for every race. People say it's easy to destory. Not really. People say you can be rushed and pay by not having a strong cap. Bull. You can have a fleet to counter a rush if you really have to worry about that. Not to mention, each colonizer has some trump ability, and that includes the Akkan, that comes in very handy.

The evacuator becomes a seige engine in the end with lvl 6 and thanks to its nanite bomb no enemy cap is safe.

The mother ship not only has a beautiful colonizing ability, but malice and shield regen. It's lvl 6 is also nice if you do lose that one cap.

The Akkan has ion bolt, which is great for getting that fleeing cap. It's also great because if you fire it right as a mothership is firing shield regen, you cancel the ability and bring Advent fleets on par with TEC.

The % increase ability is ok, but Armistice is a beaut. You can stop a fight and escape with your entire fleet is you see you're going to lose. This may not seem that great, but say you have split your fleet, and he sends everything at the one that has armistice. That smaller fleet can run while your other terrorizes the enemy planets..

There's the case though...of smaller maps. These of course are different. On a map where you're almost certain you'll be engaging your opponent in less than 20 minutes, getting a different cap isn't a bad idea at all.

 I'm not making an all encompasing statement here. Play Point Blank and choose the Colony Cap and you're writing your death warrant, but still, 95% of the time now I pick the colonizer. I only ever pick anything else on very small maps, such as Razor's edge, where having some ability such as a seige bonus will be necessary to win.

This is just my opinion. I welcome all criticism, positive or negative.

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Raging Amish
Jotanhorn
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #1 April 21, 2008 3:36:46 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
The colonizer capital ship is situational for expansion. If you have planets with several LRMs, HCs, Flaks, and light figs as well as the standard Korov per planet, then an akkan and 10-15 frigs will not allow you to expand quickly because you will lose most of the meat shield to the local defenses before colonizing 1 planet.

So im not saying that the Akkan sucks, I do use it myself, but i wait before building a fleet and see whats around me and make a decision on what to bring to the party after early exploration and home planet expansion.
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TheRedMaw
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #2 April 21, 2008 7:53:05 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
As Advent I'm often inclined to get a Radiance, even on the larger maps.

It does hamper expansion, and the Radiance actually has a bigger problem with larger militias than the Progenitor Mothership, since it's unable to come in and just keep regenerating it's shields against those nasty multiple Kodiak militias (and against multiple targets the Progenitor can easily just bury itself in the enemy militias and get all it's weapons firing, resulting in a surprising amount of damage). A Mothership can support a number of Frigates fairly easily with it's Shield Restore ability and can allow you to retreat damage ships early and avoid any unnecessary losses. The cost reductions the Mothership offers toward colonization are also very convenient, esepcailly at Levels 2 and 3 where the cut very large proportions of the cost, although I often don't invest too heavily in these in favor of combat abilities. The Mothership is a great fleet supporter and can give you a nice resource advantage by grabbing worlds faster, saving ships from dying in early battles, and with it's development bonuses.

But the thing to me is that your first Capital basically always gets the most experience, and the Progenitor doesn't benefit as much from experience as the Radiance. Resurrection, when needed and it works is a great ability, but it's a sub-par Level 6 ability for combat, requiring the loss of an experienced Capital (and since most people go after the Progenitor because of Malice early in a battle, the Mothership will often die and never use it). So really, the Progenitor only needs to get to Level 5 to be most useful in battle to achieve Level 3 Malice (it can also have Level 2 Shield Restore, which with Guardians is nothing to snicker at). But in actual battle, the effect of a Level 5 Mothership versus a Level 6 Mothership really isn't that great (and very small if you pick Resurrection).

The Radiance on the other hand hits the magic Level 6 and can pull out probably the single greatest anti-fleet ability, Cleansing Brilliance. A Level 6 Radiance is leagues more dangerous than a Level 5 (especially if a Mothership with more than Level 1 Malice is in tow). If the Radiance is your second Capital, it's much harder to get to here, and you'll get here much later in the fight than you would if it was your first, unless you do your second Capital very early. I've seen some Advents get out that second Capital at the first fleet upgrade, sometimes even the third Capital at this time, but because of experience sharing it's still harder to level them.

On a big map, it's possible to get close to, or even achieve Level 6 before the first large fleet engagement. I would rather bring a Level 6 Radiance and a Level 4 Progenitor than a Level 6 Mothership and a Level 4 Radiance to a battle. But it's a matter of taste, since you ultimately have to sacrifice the ability to expand as fast as a Progenitor allows as well as it's economic advantages, and the Radiance cannot support Frigates as they tear up militias the way the Progenitor does.
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Raging Amish
Tridus
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #3 April 21, 2008 8:31:00 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
The TEC colonizer's bonus is free extractors, but I think you need rank 2 colonize before you get one (so a level 3 ship). Not that great really.

For me, it really depends on whats going on. If the first thing I'm colonizing is a couple asteroids, the colonizer ship is great. If its something like a desert world thats heavily defended, a battleship is going to do better at clearing the area.
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Raging Amish
General_Harada
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #4 April 21, 2008 8:59:19 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Good points, but I'll take a Kol or Marza before the Akkan ( as TEC ).

A colonizer frigate works better. I can clear plenst and move on, assigning a frigate to actually populate the planet. I can split my fleet, having 4 or 5 cobalts attack an adjacent weakly defeded atseroid, while my Kol can handle a tougher planet. If I had an Akkan, I'd have it running around dropping people, not clearing militias. Early game, I might have other uses for the first Cap. As mentioned, multi-kodiak militias, defending the rush, etc. The extra punch of the heavies tends to work better for the initial push.

Sure, you burn a few extra credits at the start, but expansion is faster. If you keep the frigate back one hop, the 100 anti-matter per hop doesn't matter.
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Raging Amish
aghostone
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #5 April 21, 2008 10:22:48 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Raging Amish has it right. The different between aquiring planets with a colonizer Cap ship versus a colonizer frigate is significant.

I went Kol, and colony frigate for a long while, and switched over to the Akkan and the difference is quite a bit.

1st, the fact that the colony frigate loses 90 antimater per jump is a pain in the ass.

2nd, less fleet management required with a Cap ship. If you leave the colony ship 2 jumps behind, it has significant downtime before that planet is colonized. And econ = money = fleet.

The TEC colony cap ship has a few useful ability to boot. It increases dps and range of all nearby ships, it has Armistice and it has Ion bolt.

If you can't take a planet defended by a moderate size of militia with the TEC colony cap ship and a few frigates, you don't know wtf you're doing.
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Raging Amish
JamesP81
Join Date 09/2007
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Reply #6 April 21, 2008 10:35:29 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
If you have planets with several LRMs, HCs, Flaks, and light figs as well as the standard Korov per planet, then an akkan and 10-15 frigs will not allow you to expand quickly because you will lose most of the meat shield to the local defenses before colonizing 1 planet.


The solution here is to send in the capital ship first then send in the frigates after it's already finished its phase jump. The militia ships won't retarget the frigates (with the exception of militia LRMs. Destroy these first). They'll ignore your frigates and try, unsuccessfully, to destroy your capital ship. Once you take out the LRMs, take out the siege frigates. Once they're gone, colonize the planet and let your fleet clean up what's left.
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Raging Amish
JamesP81
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Reply #7 April 21, 2008 10:38:19 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
The TEC colony cap ship has a few useful ability to boot. It increases dps and range of all nearby ships, it has Armistice and it has Ion bolt.


I think Armistice is an under appreciated ability. If you're in a jam and need to retreat, it's just incredible. I know that a lot of people complain that "I don't know why you'd need an ability that's only good if you're losing!" On the other hand, if you're never having to retreat from a battle, ever, then the opponents your playing against just aren't that good.
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Raging Amish
General_Harada
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #8 April 21, 2008 10:55:33 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Raging Amish has it right. The different between aquiring planets with a colonizer Cap ship versus a colonizer frigate is significant.... you don't know wtf you're doing.


And if you find your cap ship tied down defending from an adjacent player or aggressive AI early on ? Or you have to recall your cap because you lost a bidding war against a pirate raid ? Or your opponent is going to rush you ? What then ? Guess your colonizer isn't really colonizing then, is it ? Or you're expanding in two directions at once ? You're jumping multiple times to colonize one planet. Remember, econ = money = fleet !

I can have a colony frigate behind my seperated cap ship and one behind my group of 6 cobalts, colonizing multiple planets at the same time and you're expanding faster ? How's that work ? Your cap ship would be criss-crossing the map trying to keep up. By the time you had as many planets under your control as I did, I would have made the initial investment on the two frigates back. The only time an Akkan makes sense as a colonizer is if you're expanding on a single front or you're jumping past an opponents front lines to planet grab deep in thier territory.

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JamesP81
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Reply #9 April 21, 2008 11:05:17 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
And if you find your cap ship tied down defending from an adjacent player or aggressive AI early on ?


Then you build a colony frigate. By this point in the game the colony frigate will be easier to afford anyway.
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Raging Amish
morvegil
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #10 April 21, 2008 2:24:17 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I find it depends

On maps with large systems, where I know its going to be awhile before I fight an opponent, or theres los of asteroids... Akkan

If its a small map, lots of planets...Kol. I need the defense and power of the Kol for defense and attack. The Marza is great, but when u have a smaller fleet of just frigates I find the Kol compliments it better.
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Raging Amish
Vanechka
Join Date 10/2007
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Reply #11 April 21, 2008 3:17:28 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
There's no doubt in my mind that choosing a colony cap is instrumental in expanding as quickly as possible. There are two main reasons for this:

1. The faster antimatter regeneration limits the time spent waiting to a minimum.
2. Most important is the ability to colonize the planet/asteroid while fighting the resident rebels (sometimes even before) gives you a substantial advantage. The planet will often already be profitable for the colony cap player by the time the player without brings in his colony frigate.

Harada's argument about expanding on two fronts instead of one sounds good, but I would rather be able to very quickly and selective expand on one front without overstreching my economy while slowly expanding on two. Additionally, if you expand without using a cap as a tank, the expansion can prove costly in terms of unit losses. That's why I normally, if the circumstances warrants it, often quickly get a second cap to open up another front of expansion. When I started playing the game, I always went with the Kol as my first battleship and had 2-3 colony frigates in tow, but changed to the Akkan after doing a test (unfortunately didn't write down the numbers) that highlighted how much faster and effectively you're able to expand with it.

TheRedMaw, I'm fairly sure that if you did some tests, you would find that the economic benefit of going with a colony cap more than makes up for your Radiants lack of levels and allows you to buy the levels needed to bring your Radiance to level parity with your Progenitor. If not, it's an understandable reason not to go with the Progenitor first given the sheer power of Cleansing Brilliance using in conjunction with Malice. Otherwise, there's normally no justifiable reason to go with a non-colony cap unless the map is small and/or enemies are relatively close.
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Raging Amish
Raging Amish
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #12 April 21, 2008 3:54:49 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I've liked all posts so far, but I would like emphasize one point. I've played with the battleship + colony frigate combo for a long time before I switched back to the colony cap. I did this because of one thing.

You can get a much larger fleet much quicker. Even if you get rushed, because you have a weaker colony cap, you also have more planets than your opponent so you can make the muscle you need.
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JamesP81
Join Date 09/2007
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Reply #13 April 21, 2008 4:04:26 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
TheRedMaw, I'm fairly sure that if you did some tests, you would find that the economic benefit of going with a colony cap more than makes up for your Radiants lack of levels and allows you to buy the levels needed to bring your Radiance to level parity with your Progenitor.


When I play Advent, I find that even on small random maps that I can still get my Radiance up to level 6 even if I get the Progenitor first. Unless it's a tiny map (like Point Blank) I don't think this is a huge issue.

I think it helps if you think of your capital ships not as warships, but as heavily armed support ships. Take the Radiance for example. Being a battleship, it has considerable firepower in its conventional weapons, but this isn't why it's a great ship. It's great because of its special abilities. All capitals should be viewed this way, the colonizer included.
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antracer
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #14 April 21, 2008 4:42:28 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I have to say as TEC, I used to use the Akkan as the first Cap, but not any more.

I now build the Kol, a colony frigate and then some cannon fodder to support the Kol.

I can usually have 2 to 3 planets cleared by the time the I'm colonizing the first, so I can then cherry pick the best of them and have functioning planets while I get the civic research going on the ice and volcanic worlds techs.

If I get an ice and a volcanic as my nearest planets, My Akkan just became an Akkan't... But because I have a Kol, I'm 2 planets down the road due to it's superior strength so it doesn't hurt as much... And I can jump right to that Terran world I just cleared at the bottleneck and colonize it, and fill in the Ice and Lava Rock after the techs are done.

Also, I really want that Kol to have all those experience points. Once I'm rolling, I up my limits and build a Dunov. These two ships paired up will handle just about anything. By end game, I have a level 8 or 9 Kol and a level 7 or 8 Dunov. Man are they bastards in a fight. I will build 2 or 3 pairs of these, add an Akkan to the front line pairs and then team them with a slova or marza... with the support fodder, I have taken on fleets near twice my size and come out on top.

The flexibility afforded by having the Kol and the fodder clear systems as the frigate comes in behind is better to me than a few credits or crystal I MIGHT get by having the ability to colonize a minute quicker, and the cost of extractors is hardly back breaking. Usually, It's my own over expansion that causes me problems more than anything.

I can understand an Akkan on a very small map with very few planets, but that's about it. I have been able to fair better without it on any decent sized map.

I think really this boils down to an individual play style. It's been awhile since there has been a game that allowed so much flexibility between players. There's even more than one way to spam... I like the fact there can be so many variations that allow a player to have a successful campaign. I tend to play "big guns, shoot first, ask questions later... and oh, would you mind putting a colony on that???", so this is the tactic I find to be most suitable that allows for a good expansion early on.

T

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Raging Amish
AntiCommie
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #15 April 21, 2008 4:46:11 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I find a high level Akkan weak, so with TEC I prefer a Kol or Sova. For Advent/Vasari, their colony cap is much better, so I like getting them first.

Akkans arent horrible ships, but they arent worth raising to a high level first. Generally its Kol, Akkan for me.
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General_Harada
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #16 April 21, 2008 4:46:26 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
There's no doubt in my mind that choosing a colony cap is instrumental in expanding as quickly as possible. There are two main reasons for this:1. The faster antimatter regeneration limits the time spent waiting to a minimum.2. Most important is the ability to colonize the planet/asteroid while fighting the resident rebels (sometimes even before) gives you a substantial advantage. The planet will often already be profitable for the colony cap player by the time the player without brings in his colony frigate.Harada's argument about expanding on two fronts instead of one sounds good, but I would rather be able to very quickly and selective expand on one front without overstreching my economy while slowly expanding on two. Additionally, if you expand without using a cap as a tank, the expansion can prove costly in terms of unit losses. That's why I normally, if the circumstances warrants it, often quickly get a second cap to open up another front of expansion. .


The anti-matter regen of the frigate is taken care of while it waits for the next planet to get cleared..

I will concede that a seperate group of Cobalts, if used carelessly, will cost you hard earned credits. But usually there is a 'quick grab' asteroid with only a cobalt and one other ship right next door. You can dispatch your own team of cobalts to grab the asteroid while your battleship grabs the next nearest planet. Two forces works very well. With an Akkan you're forced to make three jumps ( plus crosssing the initial gravity well ), and then switch direction again, or leave one flank one planet deep. Regardless, scouts will tell you where the battleship is most useful, and your cobalts least likely to die.

I guess what would be good to see is a test of which idea is better. I'll see if I can start a game to night, save it right off the bat and run both versions of the first cap ship.
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bradyule
Join Date 06/2006
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Reply #17 April 21, 2008 5:01:03 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Sure, colony caps are quicker. But when it comes down to it clearing and colonizing a planet/roid is not the bottleneck. In the early game the bottleneck is the amount of resources it takes to turn a colony into something useful. If you don't have the cash to upgrade the population THE SECOND you colonize a planet, then you shouldn't colonize the planet. Colonizing a bunch of planet really quickly drains your economy, leaves you with no military/military labs. And then you're dead when your opponent (who might very well have fewer colonies then you) walks through your pitiful defenses.

You have to balance between expansion and military. Colony ships offer no great advantage over other cap ships because your limited by that balance, not by the speed at which you can colonize.
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NomadWarriorSoul
Join Date 05/2006
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Reply #18 April 21, 2008 5:33:58 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
The TEC colony cap ship has a few useful ability to boot. It increases dps and range of all nearby ships, it has Armistice and it has Ion bolt.I think Armistice is an under appreciated ability. If you're in a jam and need to retreat, it's just incredible. I know that a lot of people complain that "I don't know why you'd need an ability that's only good if you're losing!" On the other hand, if you're never having to retreat from a battle, ever, then the opponents your playing against just aren't that good.


Honestly I find it difficult to believe players aren't seeing how this can be used either.

If you know the peak times to use it, you can serious rebalance (or give a serious unexpected kick in the teeth to an enemy fleet when reinforcements show up while your initial fleet regens antimatter.. seems a lot of people look over the fact a fleet jumping into a grav well to fight a defending fleet is automatically at a disadvantage after jump antimatter costs) a fight.

I can still see the reasoning behind it being a weak ship over the later parts of the game or in situations, especially smaller maps, but used correctly it's great in early/mid and can help give the edge expansion wise to deal with the late game stages when TEC just aren't that great.
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Raging Amish
Raging Amish
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #19 April 21, 2008 6:24:07 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I have played this game enough and used the battleship enough. Getting those extra planets DOES help.

You cannot possibly get a stable trade economy early on. Planets are your income. You need as many as possible. Depending on your style you may want to get three, four, five, and then start making a fleet, that's a person's preference. Of course, you immediately upgrade them to get them in the green. This is mandatory, and so early in the game, the investment will pay off, rushed or not.

What's key is that it's a lot harder for your opponent to clear off your upgraded planets than to get at your fleet. If person x rushes person y, and person x has 4, maybe 5 planets opposed to person y's 2 or 3, then the defender here is at an advantage. Even if one planet gets cleared off, it takes so long for one cap to take it that the defender can make the fleet with his better income than the other guy.

Also, since the cap must seige this seperates the fleet. He must focus his cap on seigeing, losing it's firepower. Your cap and fleet can focus on going up against just his fleet.

I've tried the battleship technique, but the kol's level 6 is meh, the Marza's is meh. The Radiance's cleansing brilliance is nice, but isn't really lethal without level 2 minimum of malice. The space whale (evacuator), although slow, is still my cap of choice in the beginning because of that nanite ability. You can go toe to toe with that person that chose the battleship (each nanite shot does 900 damage ish).

The emphasis of getting a cap colony first is that you can get a fleet quicker, and in the early stages of the game, having a fleet is critical.
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Vanechka
Join Date 10/2007
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Reply #20 April 21, 2008 8:18:38 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I just did a test on a small random map as TEC in order to see what provided the fastest expansion: Kol supported by colony frigates and Cobalts, or Akkan supported by Cobalts?

The layout of the map had my starting planet linked by three phase lanes to two well defended ice planets (connected to eachother by an asteroid field) and an asteroid which further led to another asteroid (which again linked to one of the ice planets). These two ice planets and two asteroids where my targets. I stopped the clock when all planets and asteroids where upgraded to the profitable level of civilian infrastructure and every single resource asteroid had been occupied by an extractor. In my mind, the map wasn't particular favourable towards one of the two strategies. I choose not to expand further since the amount of possible strategic routes grows exponentially once you've got those few core worlds up and running.

Furthermore, in each test I researched the same techs, used the same amount of fleet supply points, and built the same number of scouts (three). The game was saved at the very beginning so the map and the amount of rebels were identical in each test. Before switching to the Akkan as my first cap in 1.02, I normally choose the Kol and was therefore familiar with how to use it in an expansion role.

Akkan: The relatively long travel time through my home planet's gravity well and the fact that I have resources to spare, since I don't have to build a colony frigate, allows me to build the first civ lab and research the first level of Modular Architecture before I colonize the first asteroid at 5:00. The first Cobalts arrive at the same time and deals with the remaining Cobalt rebel ship while my Akkan jumps to the next asteroid, which is colonized at 7:20. Again, my Cobalts are left to deal with the rebels as my Akkan jumps on. At 11:03, my first ice planet is colonized and I'm researching the second level of Modular Architecture. As soon as the rebels have been cut down to an acceptable since, I send my Akkan to to the asteroid field with the final destination being the second ice planet. At 14:34 I begin researching the first level of High Density Zoning, and by 16:30 when I colonize the second ice planet, I've researched it and both levels Deep Core Metal Mining since I expect to be short on metal. By 18:42, I've researched Orbital Commerce aswell and finished building infrastructure and extractors at the second ice planet. My fleet consists of 9 Cobalts and an Akkan at 90% hull and 10% shields.

Result: 18:42

Recorded game here.

Kol: While taking a closer look at the recorded game, I saw a few minor mistakes I had made, while I hadn't really made any in my attempt with Akkan, so I allowed myself a second go at it in all fairness. The included recorded game is of my second attempt which improved my time with two minutes.

Same placement of structures and same deployment of scouts. Kol arrives at the least defended ice planet at 3:30 and begins cleansing it of rebels. First asteroid is colonized at 5:30 by a colony frigate supported by Cobalts. No resources available for a civ lab or Modular Architecture. The same colony ship takes the next asteroid at 10:30, noticeably slower than the Akkan did. The same colony frigate is now sent to the just cleared ice planet, while another colony ship have has taken a neutral crystal extractor in the asteroid field and stands ready to go to the second ice planet. By 12:30 Arctic Exploitation is researched as the first tech, and my now combined forces are moving on the second ice planet. While I wait for the colony frigate to gain enough antimatter to colonize, I research most of the technologies I researched in my Akkan game, instead of letting my resources stand idle. At the fifteen minute mark I colonize the first ice planet. I could arguably have taken the first ice planet a minute or so faster if I had decided against taking the neutral extractor, but that would probably have slowed me with regards to the second planet, which is colonized at 18:10. By 20:28, everything is as in the Akkan game, other than the fact that my fleet consists of a Kol with 95% hull and 30% shield, 6 Cobalts and 2 Protevs. Both cap ships were level 3.

Result: 20:28 (22:30 in first attempt, the "truth" is probably somewhere in between).

Recorded game here.

Any conclusions? It's too late to write mine...
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Raging Amish
Raging Amish
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #21 April 21, 2008 8:52:07 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
In general I'm using advent and expanding one by one. The resources I make while in a well fighting off pirates are spent to upgrade the planet I'm about to take.

I would also like to adjust my statements to say that I almost always use the Akkan as TEC, but if there is any one race that would consider not using that starting cap, then it is as TEC. The TEC have the cheapest colony frigate. Only 100 metal opposed to 125 and 140 (advent and vasari respectively). The Kol is a beast, but I'd be more attracted to the seige engine that is the Marza.

Still. I will maintain that you'll expand much quicker with the Capital colony, and thusly get a fleet up and running sooner than if you had just used any other capital ship.
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Raging Amish
antracer
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #22 April 22, 2008 4:04:54 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Vanechka...Scouts? Why? Kol is the best scout. You've wasted time and materials and cash on three ships I never build. I know what's on the other side of the phase lane... It's a planet and ships. The only time it gets a little hairy is if you happen to be next store to the pirates, which happened one time, and was not an issue... I just made a louie and jumped out... (I play all random maps BTW...)

As for getting a trade route going, as TEC it's a second level tech, which I research before ice and lava if I don't find any, or in between if I do. I prioritize getting trade ports built on the colonized planets ASAP, and then go back and expand the logistic slots and build one at home. I have trade income going very quickly. (I limit myself to ONE trade port per planet though, I hate spam... although I could triple my income by spamming ports easily.)

Raging Amish... A Marza? not until I have someone to go after... I can see it from a multi-player stand point if your goal is to hit fast. I tend to have a decent chunk of galaxy to defend, so most of my early Caps are Kol/Dunov combos, then the other three added in to perform specific fleet functions. I would think a Marza would be a waste of recourses early on. Maybe I just haven't gotten one promoted high enough to notice it's superior qualities... mine end up 5 or 6 usually.

T



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Raging Amish
TarlSS
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Reply #23 April 22, 2008 5:35:11 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Quite frankly if I'm TEC I like to go Marza, Radiance for Advent, or Devastator for Vasari.

Akkans are terrible. The level 6 ability is lackluster, targeting is meh, Ion bolt isn't very good, and the colonization upgrade is less than useless. Normally you won't upgrade it until all extractros are already occupied, and the TEC have techs that allow them to pay only 100 for Extractors anyway. How often do you build extractors anyway? You might get 5, maybe 6 free extractors in a good game. That's 1000 credits or so. Other abilities are worthwhile throughout the whole game, rather than just the build up/mop up end of things.

Why? Quite frankly I always find myself in the middle of engagements with the enemy early. While colonizers are nice for planet stealing, the difference a true battle ship makes in an early game fight is pretty promising.

I used to show off with Colonizers first because I didn't like building colony frigates, but then I found out honestly that my expansion needs never really outpaced what a colony frigate could do. Early on you need to build 2 civil to get any real use out of a colonizer, and usually that cripples you hard militarily. Not really something you want to get your pants caught down with. Plus, colonizers allow you to take advantage of neutrals. Well, unless you're Vasari.

And yeah, scouts. Are you playing against the computer or something? Or no rush? Superior intelligence is -exactly- what allows you to take advantage of your military ships. You attack when he's vulnerable. It doesn't cost much and allows you to monitor what he's doing and keeps you prepared. The extra time you get from prepping is much more valuable than the half of a cobalt you might be able to afford.
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Raging Amish
Vanechka
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Reply #24 April 22, 2008 6:11:01 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Vanechka...Scouts? Why? Kol is the best scout. You've wasted time and materials and cash on three ships I never build. I know what's on the other side of the phase lane... It's a planet and ships. The only time it gets a little hairy is if you happen to be next store to the pirates, which happened one time, and was not an issue... I just made a louie and jumped out... (I play all random maps BTW...)


Scouts, and intelligence in general, are invaluable. Having knowledge of the layout of the map allows me to send my task force(s) to the best targets for expansion right away, in other words, I get to plan my optimal route of expansion. The difference between jumping to a lightly defended planet instead of a heavily defended one of the same type is simply huge in the beginning of the game. Furthermore, scouts reveals the neutral extractors, which you'll want to get to sooner rather than later. If I was to play the same map without scouts (and could wipe my preexisting knowledge of the map away), I'm pretty sure you would have to add at least 5-10 minutes to each of the results.

Akkans are terrible. The level 6 ability is lackluster, targeting is meh, Ion bolt isn't very good, and the colonization upgrade is less than useless. Normally you won't upgrade it until all extractros are already occupied, and the TEC have techs that allow them to pay only 100 for Extractors anyway. How often do you build extractors anyway? You might get 5, maybe 6 free extractors in a good game. That's 1000 credits or so. Other abilities are worthwhile throughout the whole game, rather than just the build up/mop up end of things.


I disagree. You're right when it comes to the colonize ability, which plain sucks compared to the Progenitor's. But Armistice is a very, very useful ability. You just have to be creative. Ion Bolt is decent, but not great, while I'm happy with the range boost Targeting Uplink gives me, as well as the boost it provides for my flaks.

Other than that, it sounds like you like the play the small maps, on which I agree that the Marza or Kol are a better option.
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Raging Amish
Vanechka
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Reply #25 April 22, 2008 6:16:11 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Sorry about the double post, but I'd just like to vent against the fact that you're sometimes not able to edit your post, even thought it's only been a minute or two since you made it...

Other than that, it sounds like you like the play the small maps, on which I agree that the Marza or Kol are a better option.


To play, to play...

EDIT: What's worse, I can edit this one...
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