Thanks for the well thought out post, Raging Amish.

I agree with and follow myself most of the economic guidlines you seem to employ, some of them new to me which is exactly what I was looking for; a learning experience via forum.

I must digress though with your view of the trade route bonus (that white line). I do build trade ports on every planet I colonize at some point or another and I notice that the longer my chain, the more resources each individual port rakes in. In fact, I'm sure I read it somewhere on these forums. I think that because you had built ports on all of your planets, the game automatically selected the longest route from your colonies and thereby increased your profit from them by whatever amount (dependent on chain length) and NOT because each individual trade port boosts other port's income. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is my understanding on their functions.

Another interesting point you brought up is that of the Advent allegiance bonus to colonized planets in their culture. I have used this before and, if my memory serves me correctly, the bonus results from a tech you must upgrade twice (1/2 for 5% bonus, 2/2 for 10%). I do not remember how many research structures you need for its tier, but in the early stages of your empire would not 10% be a small fraction relative to the price you pay to tech up to it and then the research cost/time spent for it? It is a powerful bonus indeed, especially so if you relocate your capital to better allocate allegiance, but how long would you wait to profit from the bonus as opposed to researching trade and metal/crystal extraction and then getting that 10% bonus, thus gaining a heftier portion of your total resource income and recieving a better return on your expenses.

Here's the surprise I got; your Vasari strategy really opened my eyes. I had always viewed them as being a slow start for an economy build (which they are) but in a different way. I had thought the tier 4 trade port was the real setback, but focusing on extraction tech never occured to me. I had known that the navigator's capture ability was useful, but never looked beyond that advantage as the basis for the Vasari economy. I will definitely be playing around with different strategies this weekend.

EDIT: I forgot to ask about the planet development part of your post, doh. Do you only upgrade out of negative income? From reading it seems like that is so, and I must ask why. I always fully upgrade civilian tech on every new planet I colonize, as soon as I can. Do you save those resources for more ships to colonize more, and the income from new planets overcomes the setback from underdeveloped ones? Or is it simply that you move on quickly with your expansion and sometimes forget to upgrade completely? Just to clarify, I mean the research that increase population and thus credit income... not planet exploration or full tactical capacity on my inner worlds.

I thank you for your insight and economic wisdom, but am again eager to learn what you, or any other person, thinks of the topic. Looking forward to it!

Oh boy... Seems there has been a big misunderstanding here. But before I get to that, I now understand what you meant by the trade route. You were refering to how a trade bonus at the ports on the longest route applied to all ports connected, and not just the chained ports therein; and to that I concur. Misread on my part. It might be worth it to add that the larger income gained by a larger trade route applies to all ports everywhere in your empire, and the bonus is constant and suffers no diminishing returns. I.e. a port could be a system away, with enemy planets at every outgoing phase lane, and it would still get a fixed income bonus directly proportionate to your longest trade chain.

Now here's the fool up.

In your first post you were talking about broadcast centers being a viable tech (for Advent at tier 2) because allegiance varies directly with trade income and resource extraction (25% allegiance = 75% loss in capital, 120% allegiance = 20% gain, and so forth). Those centers you mentioned would raise the allegiance of every planet you own by 10%, thus increasing income by 10%. A very good choice for something as simple as 2 research labs. But here's where it gets murky. I was talking about the Advent allegiance bonus to colonized planets in their culture. By which I meant a tier 8 tech which grants a 10% increase to MAX allegiance for all of your planets, and you, rightfully so, misconstrued this as the tech for 5/10% culture spread rate and faction bonus. In this case, it is shield mitigation. I just confirmed this via the in-game tech tree. As it turns out, my memory did not serve me well haha. I probably should have paid attention to the part where you mentioned a tier 2 tech which grants the broadcast center... Obviously you had thought of the 10% culture spread rate, and not the max allegiance gain. I mentioned the tech because I thought you were using the Advent cultural advantage of 20% income through a larger max allegiance(10% innate, 10% tech) increase with sufficient broadcast centers, as opposed to the 10% available to all factions. I now see this as impossible due to the tremendous cost that an early economy would not be able to afford. So it would be a good move in my book, but only for late game and if you can spare the resources for an 8th tier tech.

As for relocating your capital... I still think it's a good idea. Not in early game, as yes, it would be too expensive, but later on. Especially as Advent, who may gain more from culture, if you can relocate to a much more central position the allegiance gain (and therefore income gain) would pay for the move itself and then some. Two problems with this though, it is entirely map dependent, and really only a very late game move when you have exhausted nearly all other economic options and this slight gain in resources is the only sensible expense left to give you an edge. Seeing as how this thread is about early game econ concerning trade... I don't see how it stays on topic with me veering off on that but I felt the need to explain my opinion.

But to forward this discussion, I offer a relevant question. The Black Market sell option you mentioned... how does it work with an ai? Would I be wasting my time putting resources up there hoping to get more buck for my bang? And, have you tried this feature in mp? If so, do players use/buy from it, or do they simply opt for the instant-buy. I do realize there is an option to set a price percentage, so that you can price a bit below Black Market averages (enticing a buyer), but it seems to be overlooked so much as to be rendered worthless.

I would also like to get some more opinions and personal strategies employed by other players. Not that Raging Amish's aren't well conceived, it would just be more beneficial to hear more than one take on the subject. Don't be shy now   

Ok heres my take , but im usually alot more theoretical about it.

My intial answer to trade ports is this. I build trade according to three things - The Tempo of my allies , The personality of the enemy and The situation of the enemy.

The theory is simple. You dont build Trade for any other reason then to eventually get out a bigger fleet then your enemy because you have more money.

However , building/researching to get that Trade in the first place , puts you behind on the size of your fleet.

If the enemy can exploit this window of opportunity then you have failed. You will lose too much early on (ships etc) that the trade ports will never make up the loss income. Infact worse case scenario is if the enemy blow up your trade ports.

Now look at the enemies situation. Is he passive or aggressive. Is he lining the edge of his gravwell with ships constantly pouring out. Hes waiting for you to do something else other then build ships at the same rate he is. The moment you decide to make civ labs and res trade instead of building ships ...bam he will exploit the weakness.

Now think about the Window of Opportunity you are offering to your enemy. What happens if he doesnt scout or take advantage of it. Maybe you can get away with having less ships , if he doesnt attack you , and by the time he realises , your trade will have made up enough credits that your fleet size will catch up with him. You have effectively opened a window and closed it. The opening and closing of a window gives you advantages and I call this "baiting". This is one of the main skilled strategies in Starcraft where experts grab "expansions" to force the hand of the opponent.

Now there is also the possibility of Opening a Window but opening it only slightly so that its almost impossible to exploit. Make 3 repair labs , and stay defensive with less ships. Use the rest of your money for trade. The enemy will have more ships , but can he use his greater fleet strength vs your smaller fleet+repair?. Effectively you have opened a window he cant jump through. Keep defensive until this window closes , essentially when you have more econ then him so you can catch up on fleet.

Windows are naturally hard to jump through. Because of the jump distance of the enemy , they may have more ships then you , but because you are far away , you have the advantage of ships to bare. I.e your ships get to the battle faster then his. Thus even with a large army , by the time that army gets to you ..it will be the same size as your army + faster reinforcements.

This natural difficulty can offer you the chance to make trade ports , and the enemy cant exploit it.

.Another thing you must think about is IF YOU should be the one jumping through an enemies window of opportunity. If you see an enemy who just has a cap ship capping planets , and he has trade ports everywhere ...a noob might panic and try to get his own trade up. However assess whether this is suppose to be your opportunity to hit him with a superior fleet.

Sometimes an ally and an enemy are fighting each other. You decide to get up trade. The other enemy attacks the ally to force a 2 vs 1. Now , if the 1 can stay defensive , not lose ships etc , try to make repairs and concentrate purely on ships , he can last out till your window closes. Once your window closes you can use your high income to exploit.

However saying this , some one who opens windows smartly which are difficult to exploit , can be countered by opening your own windows. This is the prefered way of intermediate players to battle. They try to "race" the enemy. Sometimes getting trade is to open your own windows larger and more exploitable ,because you know the enemy is doing the same thing but cant jump through your windows.

Often you get noobs who open windows , notice also that you are opening windows but do not assess your potential to exploit windows of opportunity . Thus he opens small windows and closes them fast with the fear you might attack and exploit just to be on the safe side. You however ,assess that the noob cannot jump through your windows ,so you open them bigger and when you close them , you gain more then the noob.

[I.e You make 10 Trade ports but he only makes 5 trade ports and puts turrets and token defensive ships round them instead of the another 5 trade ports]

This is also a way to exploit non-aggressive enemies. Skilled players can often give the impression with ship positioning and behaviour that they can exploit a window , thus a noob becomes fearful and opens smaller windows and loses out on the race.

Hope this helps

ps - im writing a guide that includes all this stuff. Will be released after 1.1 tho.


Oh and just to rant. Often noobs will call me a brainless rusher when they go for an ice planet and I come steamrolling in with LRMs exactly at the time when their ice has just been colonised and its making -3.0 income. Its a shame they dont realise that by getting the Ice they have opened a window , and that they havent really scouted me to assess my potential to exploit this windows of opportunity.

Colonising a planet is also opening a window!

Trade Ports are not necessary to winning the game. There are several ways to expand your economy, but you may not even NEED to expand your economy significantly in order to beat your opponent. Trade Ports are the most POWERFUL way to expand your economy but not necessarily the best way.

Expansion into neighboring worlds is easier to accomplish than Trade Port teching and construction.
Teching up of passive economic upgrades are also easier than Trade Ports teching and construction.
Trade Ports, however, will generate significantly more income than any other option.

Trade Ports do best in one of two situations and best with BOTH situations.
1) Trade Ports stacked on a world are cumulative. Desert worlds are great for this (because Desert worlds have the most potential logistical slots) but you can still get three on an astroid. Try to build stacks near your homeworld because that way they'll have a higher allegiance.
2) Trade Ports generate more income the more worlds that have Trade Ports. In fact, if your ally has Ports up then you can make some big bucks because you're trade route will extend into their controlled space. As I understand it, each "jump" your trade route takes adds to their income. As a TEC player I often double my planetary income (or more!) with Ports.

However, one should understand that Ports are a mid-late game play. You CAN rush to Ports -- I've done it in 1.04 -- but that's risky as hell and doesn't help you in the early game. The reason they don't help is the INCREDIBLE COST of Trade Ports. Consider: You need two civ labs, the Trade Port tech, and at least two Ports on two different worlds. Doing some back of the letter math, that's around 3600 credits. Late game, 3600+ credits (and metal and cry, too) isn't THAT much. Early, that's epic.

When you look up and see you have a few thousand extra credits and realize you forgot to build them yet!!!

Tradeprots are good if you can't get more planets than your opponents, or if you got ton of asteroids about. In a short game on a small map they are not necessary. Also, a Temple of Communion is pretty good idea even on a small map! If you have a tiny empire one Temple is all you need to spread culture across all of it. The 10% allegiance is so worth it

Lots of good stuff and more than enough theory.

Just a few comments:

You don't really choose trade ports OR expansion -- you always expand -- just have to decide whether you are also putting up tradeports early as well.

Good commentary on "the window" from P5YY. Scout your opponent. When you reach the point where you are ready to possibly build trade ports, if your opponent is capable of attacking you in 15 minutes or less, build military and plan for the attack. If he doesn't attack and scouting indicates his military is inferior, you should attack him instead. If your position is very secure (allies on borders) or very distant and you are under no immediate threat of attack, build your initial trade ports and then tech boom.

The 10% allegiance bonus may not seem like much, but as you move out farther from the capital, that +10% FLAT allegiance bonus is a lot more valuable on worlds where you only have 40%-60% base allegiance. This isn't even taking into account the military and offensive culture benefits. Remember, if you add 10% to 40%, you are actually boosting that worlds local economy by 25%!!!

If the game looks like it is going to be a long haul, I keep trying to add to my trade economy here and there -- especially as TEC. Once you have your labs and a forward frig factory planet, slowly try to fill every slot you have with trade, culture, and in some cases, refineries. This almost never happens, unless you are playing some stupid big multistar map, but if it does happen, you are going to need the econ to fight unkillable Advent fleets and Vasari RA. Just don't neglect your military to do this.

Also, regarding multiple trade ports -- while I am not a big fan of exploring planets when the money can be spent elsewhere, if you like playing the planet lotto and you find a planet that has a fat trade bonus, load that sucker up. A handful of trade ports around one of these worlds provides very nice income. (This is known as an Astax Pleasure Palace.) Again, exploring is usually a waste of time and money... it is only rarely you get something that can actually have a big impact on the game.

All this said, please keep in mind that most good players don't invest in trade on smaller or crowded maps, they just kill their neighbors instead.

Are you sure that trade routes cannot go to a different star system???

It does/can cross star systems.
I had a MP game the other day - 5 systems. My allies and I had taken over our starting system and went to help the allies in the other starting system.
I took over some planets in the other system, but not one next to the sun. Once I took over the pirate base which was next to the sun and built a trade port there (obviously was playing TEC and had the bonus 4 log slots researched) the line went between star systems.

as a tec, spam those thing like mad AFTER you have expanded up to the point where your enemy hampers you.

especialy on planets where you dont know what to build. if you have enough labs (including those for redundancy) and your media is covered: go for money. your trade related research will be more useful with every tradeport you build.

Its the thing that keeps tec going: being able to buy even the most ridicilously priced ressources.
And in team games you can feed your allies all your cash.

Try to build stacks near your homeworld because that way they'll have a higher allegiance(sic).

Does planetary allegiance affect trade revenue at all? I know it must affect refineries because the percentages of the mines are lower at low align planets.

Sixhits is right about the large startup cost of setting up trade ports... and the lesson from that is: If you aren't prepared to setup a lot more than the minimum 2 ports, then it will take a long, long time for you to recoup the true costs. So if you are going to do it, do it seriously and do it only after you already have the labs for other reasons. Definately do it sooner if there is a nearby ally, and do it later if there are easy planets for the taking.

Whoa.

I'm a little suprised to see this thread still up. It must have piqued some people's interests, and I suppose that is a sign of the quality present in this discussion. I appreciate all the responses and the wonderful insight so many have divulged to this thread.

Thanks to VahnNoa for clearing up how the black market can be manipulated effectively.

Other than that... I'm glad to see the recent contributions have brought this thread to the front page so that, maybe, others can learn from the many great examples that are present here.

Keep it up