Here's my take on entrenchment » Forum Post by Shadows-802

I dont mean to be cynical or condesending

It didn't sound like it one bit. Sounds like pretty nicely laid out suggestions, and the dev team likes this kind of thing

Sadly I haven't gotten too much time to play it, but I can comment a bit on a few -

Starbases- need to increase in intial price, but as a converse decrease the upgrades slightly. Either their range should be cosiderably increased or given slow movement within the well and allow the Vasari one to jump(all with the bases being unable to fire for a set time during movement.execpt in the grav well for the vasari) These drivers or thrusters should be upgrades that go against the total starbase upgrade limit. The build times should be increased somewhat, but not to the point where jumping in with a DS constructor(along with a supporting fleet) and building a starbase beachhead becomes prohibited.

I'm going to agree on the price change. Making it a bit more expensive to start but slightly reducing upgrade costs I think will be better than what we have now. I don't really like the idea of all of them moving, though. And I don't think a big range increase is necessarily the best fix either, just a quick one. I'd actually prefer if starbases basically applied a planet shield so that unless the enemy wanted to spend the next 20 minutes trying to bombard through 90% or something damage reduction, they'd have to take out the starbase. The first thought is "well what about the TEC shield generators?", but if the starbases are costly enough and the planet shield is included high up on the upgrade tier somewhere, a TEC player would be much better off building shield generators than upgraded starbases on misc worlds to fend off small strikes/Novaliths.

Deep space Construtors-The build starbase funtion should not be instantanous, instead it should be a que-able order with the intial firing ranges displayed like other tactical structures.(i know that you guys at stardock and ironclad intended for the starbases not to be completly weaponized but given teir size and cost the civilian side takes a back seat to military.)

I would very much like for it to be targetted. It's quite easy to mess up, and a little clunky because you have to babysit the ship rather than being able to just tell it to deploy wherever as soon as it leaves the shipyard.

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Thanks for the suggestions Shadows

"And on a side note what is with the recycled sounds. "

Read the beta disclaimer screen There should be lots of things like this that we will be wrapping up.

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i was just playing as vasari and my starbase was moving and firing before it had even finished building!

this is not good

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increase initial price?

why? So enemy can win by making more fleet for the money?

Money shuld never be issue when entrenching, Time must be the factor!

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I like that starbase-planetary shield idea instead of a massive range increase. It would better suit its defensive role, and decrease its offensive capability. If it had a huge range increase, you could just warp in a constructor, build it in a enemy grav well, then sit back with a fleet as it ganks half of the other guy's stuff.

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I think star bases range dont have to be increased they could just have a ablilty that negates phase jumping. That way your are forced to take them out not by pass them.

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Read the beta disclaimer screen There should be lots of things like this that we will be wrapping up.

Okay, thats fine i was just wondering about it.

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I like the shield idea too. It would definately give you time to counter a small fleet, and keep star bases more of a defensive threat then anything else.

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if you don't increase the range, then what about the neutral grav well ones? I'd build one in choke points mainly and these are not necessarily colonisable and if it is then possible to bypass them without any serious kind of damage, then that also sucks and the planet shield would not give me any benefit. and not all races can use mines in neutral wells.

as always, we need to identify what exactly the problem is before suggesting solutions. I think the range issue came up due to two reasons:

1) bypassing when you built one to prevent enemies from passing through and reaching planets behind the choke point. (see above describtion)

2) protect colonised planets - and totally so, so that a starbase placed near one can protect it from all sides and one need not worry about ships circling around and attacking the planet from the rear.

currently, both is possible, which puts limits to their usefulness. I still think the substantial range increase is the way to go, but I'm open for ideas. but I already said that phase-jumping SBs is off limits for me and I'd like to keep the vasari one the only moving one.

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But the issue of range becomes that you can then sneak one into an enemy grav well, base it right at the edge, and have it reach the inner ring. I'm not against a slight range increase, but it sounds like you're aiming for something more drastic

A drastic change to range would make it easier to defend neutrals/friendlies, but it'd break 'balance' on offensively used bases, which is why I called it a quick but not really the best fix

I don't know, maybe I'm too giddy about the way we upgrade bases, but why couldn't there be an effect similar to a PJI that prevents jumping towards your space (like the old beta PJIs) and the planet shield thing as part of the upgrade paths? That way if you want super duper protection you can get it but have to pay a little, and those who just want to extend their trade route or give a culture boost in a neutral, or something, don't automatically get a death star for free

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I like where both Shadowhal and Annatar are going. The planet shield is a great idea and I agree that stations shouldn't be moving (except the unique vasari). As Shadowhal pointed out though, this will not be very functional in non-colonizable grav wells.

What about gas giants and stars? That little range we see now means the star bases are pretty much useless in those locations (except maybe guarding a couple neutrals). What would be better is if the range was increased so it took up about 50% of an astroid grav well. This would me you could funnel ships. So if they jumped in a gas giant, you could have your star base on the side that enters your space. Sure they could jump out, but getting into your next gravwell will be pretty hard if the range of the star base extends from the edges of the gas giant to the edge of the grav well.

If this range is too great though, or we put on phase jump inhibitors that completely stop jumping, we'd have a situation where attacking or hit and runs would become completely useless! We could no longer send a small fleet behind enemy lines to pillage and harrass the opponents economy. I know entrenchment is supposed to hinder these tactics because people were able to send in huge fleets to homeworlds and wreck them without any interference, but do we want to eliminate all pillage, privateering and raiding? I certainly hope not!

I'd also hope that we don't eliminate the need for a defensive fleet. If starbases can move and phase jump, then what's the point of having a fleet? Starbases will be far stronger and more effective than ships. So keep the range at a reasonable distance which still requires fleet support. Best to keep these stationary bases that are used for defense by providing planetary defense (big guns, planet shields, extensive range), and offensively by ressuply (repair station, production facility). Having it set up in an enemy gravity well to blow everything to bits is a bit redundant, we have fleets for that. Having a star base that sits in a gravity well just outside the opponents (astroid, nebulae etc) that pumps out ships for effective attacks or repairs for raiders would work well. On the other side, having a star base that can trap and destroy everything in a gravity well while removing all bombardment means we eliminate raids and defensive fleets.

EDIT*

Just read Annatar's new post. I agree with one statement fully and that's that we want starbases to be upgradable in multiple ways. Starbases shouldn't just be about defense (and offense) in a military sense. This is Sins after all and it's 4 times! Make upgrades "or" intensive, not "and" intensive. Have a star base that can produce units, or shoot far, or create culture, or be an economic boost. This is done right now through supply points (8/8). Which might work very well, I havne't had a chance to fully test it yet.

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What about gas giants and stars? That little range we see now means the star bases are pretty much useless in those locations (except maybe guarding a couple neutrals). What would be better is if the range was increased so it took up about 50% of an astroid grav well. This would me you could funnel ships. So if they jumped in a gas giant, you could have your star base on the side that enters your space. Sure they could jump out, but getting into your next gravwell will be pretty hard if the range of the star base extends from the edges of the gas giant to the edge of the grav well.

Well this would be where my old style PJI idea comes into play. You wouldn't need increased range if they had to destroy the starbase to be able to jump deeper towards your space

As for range, I had another idea. I've only been able to play with the Advent so far, but I'm assuming the TEC/Vasari ones get similar hp/shield/etc upgrade paths? Why not add a bit of a range increase to them? Maybe spread it out so it caps at +20% or so after all the upgrades.

Again, my line of reasoning is that the player should have to decide and pay the price of a very powerful station, not get it as a handout. Range is an incredible advantage, shouldn't come as a freebie!

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Quoting Annatar11,

reply 10

But the issue of range becomes that you can then sneak one into an enemy grav well, base it right at the edge, and have it reach the inner ring. I'm not against a slight range increase, but it sounds like you're aiming for something more drastic

A drastic change to range would make it easier to defend neutrals/friendlies, but it'd break 'balance' on offensively used bases, which is why I called it a quick but not really the best fix

So what you're saying is that if you use the simple, obvious fix to the problem that keeps starbases from being useful in their proper role, it screws up the way they fulfill a role that they shouldn't really be fulfilling, anyway?

Here's an idea: Increase range so that starbases defend like they're supposed to, and increase build time so they don't attack like they're not supposed to. If an enemy lets you sit around in his gravwell for ages building a starbase, he deserves to get shot at.

Problem solved, and by fixing the obvious problems in obvious ways, instead of complex, crazy new stuff.

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Tec does have a range increase but I think it is broken. It's under the weapons upgrades and is the second and last upgrade available. After I upgraded though I didn't notice any difference in range.

The only issue with the PJI idea, which I do like, is that not all worlds go into your territory. Without more testing it's hard to make assumptions, but bear with me. If you have a gas giant next to a star, or in between two neutrals, this idea falls through. it would be really strategic to place a base there though to stop enemies from accessing resources, trade routes, or a destination (like a different star).

Though, if we do have this as the suggested upgrade, well then we can choose between a PJI or a Range increase. IE between a planet or a neutral grav well.

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well another idea that i have heard brought up that fixes the jump in build starbase win scenario is if in enemy grav wells the build time is doubled or even tripled and while im talking about build time it definetely needs to be increased

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So what you're saying is that if you use the simple, obvious fix to the problem that keeps starbases from being useful in their proper role, it screws up the way they fulfill a role that they shouldn't really be fulfilling, anyway?

Who says they aren't supposed to fulfill an offensive role? They can be deployed anywhere for a reason Half of the point of them is that you can use them in an enemy grav well

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The only issue with the PJI idea, which I do like, is that not all worlds go into your territory. Without more testing it's hard to make assumptions, but bear with me. If you have a gas giant next to a star, or in between two neutrals, this idea falls through. it would be really strategic to place a base there though to stop enemies from accessing resources, trade routes, or a destination (like a different star).

Though, if we do have this as the suggested upgrade, well then we can choose between a PJI or a Range increase. IE between a planet or a neutral grav well.

This is true. I wasn't thinking immediately the next jump, though. I'm theorycrafting here a bit since I don't know how simple or difficult it is to code, but my idea was "jumping towards", not necessarily "jumping into". Basically, if you have your planet A, connected to a nebula, connected to a gas giant, and you deploy and upgrade the base at the giant, the enemy can't jump into the nebula from the giant because it's going towards your space. This is actually probably not the easiest thing to code, so maybe give it a couple jump range limit, ie if you have a colonized planet within 2-3 jumps of the neutral, the enemy can't jump through that neutral towards your space.

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If what I remember reading from the initial purpose of this expansion holds true, the Anny, when building in an enemy grav well for the purpose of having an offensive SB, it should take an unbelievable amount of time. Hence the only way to accomplish this is to have an accompanying fleet to protect the builder while he builds.

With this in mind (and also remembering the stuff read in that initial reading...SB's should have the ability to fire anywhere within a grav well that they are placed...except through a planet of course. The whole initial point of this expansion is to focus on the DEF side of the game and to boost the lack of it from the original. And one of the most important factors was to stop fleets from flying around a grav's set up DEFs. What good does it do to have your "Entrenchment" set up with a SB, mines, upgraded turrets, etc..., if there is a limited range on some of these DEF's. The original problem still persists...an attacking fleet can still fly around in the overall scheme of things. Yeah they might lose some ships here and there and maybe a cap ship too, but if their fleet is big enough, then what matters losing a few ships here and there as they fly-by.

The whole point of this DEF expansion, from what I understood and gathered, was to make the SB a DEF monster, where an attacking fleet either:

had to find a different route around that planet to stave off a fleet decimation, or

bring a massive fleet in and battle the SB head-on and try to take it down.

Which all points back to my original thought that I have stated in a couple of other posts...SB's should be expensive and time consuming to build, so that a faction cannot have 1 of them in each planet...thus effectively dominating a game.

p.s. The SB's are supposed to handle an attacking fleet to free up your fleet to be offensive as well. This eliminates the need to constantly keep using your attacking fleet to come back and be DEF.

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but starbases should be able to be built in an enemy well so it supports the fleet. Having said that they should not be increased to the point were they replace the fleet

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I like Annatars idea of increasing range with upgrades. That way the star bases can't be imidiatly (yeah my spelling sucks) used for offense. And perhaps an extended build time if being built in an enemy grav well?

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Quoting Shadows-802,

reply 19

but starbases should be able to be built in an enemy well so it supports the fleet. Having said that they should not be increased to the point were they replace the fleet

This is correct, but it should very hard to accomplish....if the enemy player is quick to react to one being built. They should be ablt to manevour his own ships to interupt the building phase from the builder ship. The enemy player will also have put mines up around the grav well to also help fight against this.

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If what I remember reading from the initial purpose of this expansion holds true, the Anny, when building in an enemy grav well for the purpose of having an offensive SB, it should take an unbelievable amount of time. Hence the only way to accomplish this is to have an accompanying fleet to protect the builder while he builds.

If this was currently true, I'd have no objection, but it sort of isn't. It's very quick to get a starbase up. True until it's upgraded it's nothing to write home about but it's cheap and available fairly quickly into a game so it's still able to put up a good fight, especially with an accompanying fleet. The upgrades go fairly quickly, too.

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again...SB's can be OFF...but are made to be DEF. That's the way I took the whole meaning of this expansion to be. Doesn't mean I'm right...just what I got out of the original writings about it.

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Actually i just had an idea on thePJI upgrade.

What if we intriduced Pase mitigation(of sorts) where the larger the fleet the harder(or the more it effects them) for them to get through, but small fleets would have less of hard time geting through.

The phase mitigation it should be calculated based upon the total number that are trying to jump out.

then again you could just send some kosovos and bomb planets but the idea based on the idea the some raiding should occur yet large fleets shouldn't.

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How about this? Give SB's in friendly turf a large range advantage. Might not help if you want to choke off a non colonizable, but as the SB's stand now, it's not too difficult to have one in each planet. This should be totally doable from a coding standpoint as the Akkan has a range increasing ability already. All we need to do is apply it to friendly system starbases. Maybe make it an in culture thing? This way starbases can still be used offensively without being cheap, but the defensive ones (which is what SB's were supposed to be for mainly after all) will always have an advantage.

Edit to add: Also, why not let us build more than one starbase on friendly turf? Or make it a high end tech that allows this? That's instead of the range increase of course. Having two super long range SB's would be sick (cool, but sick ).

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