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DRM problem with used copy

By on December 18, 2008 1:12:05 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

epiclulz

Join Date 12/2008
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Is it really true that when you buy SoaSE and link your CD-key to an account, they stay together forever and thus screw over anyone unfortunate enough to buy a used copy containing that CD-key?

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December 18, 2008 1:33:49 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Actually you buy the serial key. Its kinda like an ice cream. If you buy someone else's half eaten ice cream from them, you cant go back to the shop and demand a refill for the cone. You would have to get that from the original owner (if it hasnt been digested yet)

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December 18, 2008 5:26:03 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The small game store I bought this from (well actually, I traded two games in exchange for SoaSE and another game) has a policy of not taking used copies of games that use DRM methods like SoaSE does. They obviously won't take anything by Valve since they, like everyone else, know what the deal is with Steam. But how the fuck are they supposed to be aware of every single DRM-crippled game in existence? The packaging of SoaSE has no description of its DRM system, no warning that a used copy is as useless as a bucket of diarrhea. If Ironclad and Stardock want to fuck over people who buy used games they could at least have the fucking decency of warning them about it. I'm pretty sure I'll get a refund from the store, but what if I didn't? Maybe the developers and publishers have houses built of gold bricks and the flesh of illegal immigrants, but I sure as fuck do not.

 

I keep hearing that SoaSE doesn't use DRM, but that's obviously a bold-faced lie, or perhaps some kind of myth, sort of like how people still keep claiming that you can't play Crysis without a $5000 PC, or that we only use 10% our brains. It's all obvious bullshit, yet people keep buying into it. I guess when you tell someone that SoaSE has no DRM you're supposed to wink at fellow players in a knowing, conspiratorial way. SoaSE has as much DRM as any game from EA or Ubisoft, but at least you won't hear people claim that Spore has no DRM. I feel like I'm watching the emperor in his new clothes, except I'm the only one who can see he's naked.

 

The thing about traditional copy protection is that if I sell the game I can't play the installation anymore, and I can forget about reinstallations. Kind of like how if I sell my bicycle I can't ride it anymore. That's fair and makes sense. But with SoaSE I can sell the physical copy without any loss of functionality whatsoever! Shit, I can even download it again and again free of charge. That's pretty fucked up because even as you're using crippling DRM that renders used copies inert, you also encourage people to sell their physical copies because there's no disadvantage to doing so.

 

These DRM scams are just pure fucking greed. Not only do you want to keep doing business as usual by selling physical copies in stores, but you also want to prevent people from reselling those copies so you get even more money, or at least get to gleefully fuck over the unwashed lower classes who aren't rolling around in money. What's more, it's all tied to some program that controls access and/or updates to the game, just in case people forget that they aren't allowed to really own anything, only their corporate masters are. Newsflash: Steam is a warning, not an example to be followed.

 

PC gaming is quickly becoming unbearable, and the additional cost of console games is more than enough to compensate for their lack of DRM bullshit. Piracy is the only thing that can save PC gaming, because only piracy seems to send the message that people are fed up with DRM and "licensing" games rather than buying them. If SoaSE is supposed to be the great hope of PC gaming (yes, people really seem to think this way) then I assure you that PC gaming is well and truly fucked. I'll probably get SoaSE from The Pirate Bay, since it's the only reasonable choice given to me, and I'm not going to purchase anything from Stardock et al in the future.

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December 18, 2008 5:38:11 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Bravo! What fucken bullshit.......my friend wants the game from me and there's no way to transfer ownership to him. What a crock. Neither of us will buy any more games from Stardock because of this.....Valve lost my business a long time ago becauase of this fuckin crap. Wake up DEV's!!!!!

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December 18, 2008 5:53:01 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Think a bit before you post. I believe stardock has a very light protection (CD key only) while others screw you over with tons of protectionprograms.

Also you can perfectly install and update the game without! CD key (just not to the maximum) and even play it. The only thing it prevents is online play.

It's how I got this game, loaned it from a friend and isntalled it. Enjoyed it so much I decided to buy it from the store to support a company that doesn't screw over it's customers with security programs.

 

 

 

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December 18, 2008 5:57:11 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I personally dont think anything anyone could say (no matter how true) would change your mind about what you obviously believe is true. You are exactly right in the fact that you can get this game free from pirate bay or anywhere for that matter. You are more than welcome to download V1.05 and play it till your eyes bleed if you want. Like I said in the first post. You pay for the serial key that upgrades the "demo" V1.05 into the actual game V1.1 For that and things like constant dev support, updates and so forth and so on.

In truth this game has no DRM, I dont need to own  the game disk or any physical copy of the game itself. I just need my serial key. The rest is just a download away. from any source, I might add. You bought the game second hand. Do you believe you should get support from someone for a product that you didnt buy from that same someone. That doesnt make sense.

You can always email support@stardock.com (or something like that anyway) and ask nicely. Not in this crazy person rant you wrote above. They might even help you. Otherwise if (as I believe) you actually do not own the game and you are just trying to pirate it by screaming your head off at hard working people. Well then, you got what you deserve.

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December 18, 2008 6:17:27 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Dirk_123,
Think a bit before you post. I believe stardock has a very light protection (CD key only) while others screw you over with tons of protectionprograms.

Also you can perfectly install and update the game without! CD key (just not to the maximum) and even play it. The only thing it prevents is online play.

It's how I got this game, loaned it from a friend and isntalled it. Enjoyed it so much I decided to buy it from the store to support a company that doesn't screw over it's customers with security programs.

 

 

 

 

online sorta is the only satisfying thing in soase,  i gotta do it online..   nobody in the neighborehood (did i spell that wright?? )

so i'd be pretty screwed if i wasnt able to play online,   i love the fact that soase is DRM free,  but im confused about why were unable to transfer rights,

if you dont like a product you should be allowed to exchange it, either from where u bought it or with someone else,   apparently i gotta give epiclulz some support,  cuase maybe peopel who earn from this policy are planning to build ice-hotels in the Saharah, but we certainly arent,  and i fully understand peopel being upset about the fact they bought something with the thought "hell  if i dont like it, i got a guy who desperatly wants something like this" only to find out they'd have to fully share their accounts etc to do so.

it's just as big a scam as not being able to read the EULA or manual b4 buying.....

so a word to whoever is responsible,  you dont put such inportant information as "Impulse distribution system required to get pathces in technical data,  NOBODY bothers looking there, unless u have a damn good reason to,   and even if we did read it, it'd be to late,  cuase we already bought it,   i would've forgiven you would it have been highlited on the site b4 the release... but it wasnt....

yeah ofc it was ON the site,  but u cant expect us to go look for some data we dont know even exists

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December 18, 2008 8:03:41 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Dirk_123,
Think a bit before you post. I believe stardock has a very light protection (CD key only) while others screw you over with tons of protectionprograms.

Also you can perfectly install and update the game without! CD key (just not to the maximum) and even play it. The only thing it prevents is online play.

It's how I got this game, loaned it from a friend and isntalled it. Enjoyed it so much I decided to buy it from the store to support a company that doesn't screw over it's customers with security programs.

You need to create an account with Impulse and then register your game using your CD-key. That's the only way to update the game.

Quoting Mori,
In truth this game has no DRM, I dont need to own  the game disk or any physical copy of the game itself. I just need my serial key. The rest is just a download away. from any source, I might add.

In what parallel universe does SoaSE not have DRM? The game is crippled if you don't create an account and attach a CD-key to it. Digital rights management "allows the issuer of the media or file to control in detail what can and cannot be done with a single instance."

You bought the game second hand. Do you believe you should get support from someone for a product that you didnt buy from that same someone. That doesnt make sense.

Second hand games have never differed from new games in terms of functionality, and there's no reason why they should. I bought a completely legitimate version of the game and I merely expect to be able to patch it and play online and so on. Apparently that's just way too unreasonable for some developers.

You can always email support@stardock.com (or something like that anyway) and ask nicely.

Oh, no need. I already returned the game.

Not in this crazy person rant you wrote above. They might even help you. Otherwise if (as I believe) you actually do not own the game and you are just trying to pirate it by screaming your head off at hard working people. Well then, you got what you deserve.

Eh? I bought the game from a store, I didn't pirate it.

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December 18, 2008 11:05:01 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

 

As a general rule, anyone who buys a used PC game these days should be fully aware that it might not come with a CD key or at least one that hasn't been registered and thus that they might not be able to play online or get updates.  This is why I am very leery of purchasing used PC games and have been for years; this is old news.

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December 18, 2008 11:23:26 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Mori,
Do you believe you should get support from someone for a product that you didnt buy from that same someone. That doesnt make sense.

Yes, in fact I would.

I purchased my computer from someone used. Installed on it was a program called Windows Vista. Yes, I expect Microsoft to provide support. I even have a key plastered right on the side of the case. Nowhere on the case does it say that the liscense can not be transfered. Yes, I have asked for and received support from Microsoft concerning thier product. All I had to do was provide a valid serial key.

 I went and looked at a box of SoaSE and nowhere on the box does it say that the licence can not be transferred. As such, I would as a consumer expect support to be provided I can provide a valid CD key that is UNIQUE and shown to be in my sole possesion.

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December 18, 2008 11:31:07 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Nothing is preventing you from playing the game.  You can install sins on over 9000 computers if you wanted to.  You just can't get the patches which is rightly so. 

 

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December 18, 2008 11:38:35 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Nothing is preventing you from playing the game. You can install sins on over 9000 computers if you wanted to. You just can't get the patches which is rightly so.
FTW
These DRM scams are just pure fucking greed. Not only do you want to keep doing business as usual by selling physical copies in stores, but you also want to prevent people from reselling those copies so you get even more money, or at least get to gleefully fuck over the unwashed lower classes who aren't rolling around in money.
Profit does not equal greed.  Selling product is what pays for making and support more games.  Second-hand sales don't profit the developer . . why should they lose money for no gain?

 

As an aside, you can purchase a single license for Sins if you want the updates.

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December 18, 2008 12:00:04 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Simmyaz,
Nothing is preventing you from playing the game.  You can install sins on over 9000 computers if you wanted to.  You just can't get the patches which is rightly so.

Why would I play a game that I can't update and can't play online? And why is it "rightly so" that I can't update a game that I've legally purchased?

Quoting Zubaz,
Profit does not equal greed.  Selling product is what pays for making and support more games.  Second-hand sales don't profit the developer . . why should they lose money for no gain?

Preventing people from purchasing used copies of the game in order to maximize profit is greed, and there is no way you can argue against that. Being able to buy, sell and trade items without hassle is normal with everything else, so what the fuck makes game developers so unique that their high and mighty video games cannot possibly be sold and traded by us lowly consumers? Society is not and should not be based on maximizing the profit margins of corporations. Consumers have rights too, and corporations can't just do whatever the fuck they want because they don't like losing money.

As an aside, you can purchase a single license for Sins if you want the updates.

Except I already bought a license. It came with the game.

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December 18, 2008 12:03:31 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Except I already bought a license. It came with the game.
Actually, if you bought second hand, you bought the game (as it stands) and the media it came on.
Preventing people from purchasing used copies of the game in order to maximize profit is greed, and there is no way you can argue against that
I can, but it'd be a waste of time. 

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December 18, 2008 12:05:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Except I already bought a license. It came with the game.

No, you bought the physical disc that contained the game data.

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December 18, 2008 12:16:41 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Zubaz,

Profit does not equal greed.  Selling product is what pays for making and support more games.  Second-hand sales don't profit the developer . . why should they lose money for no gain?

Mmm. I am in retail and people FRQUENTLY return to my establishment with our products for service (at no charge I might add) that do not purchased directly from me. I take care of them with a smile and hope they come back to purchase something from me. I hope they remembered how they felt about the service and how they were treated.

If I just looked at them and stated your line, I would rapidly lose potential customers with my 'whats in it for me' attitude.  

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December 18, 2008 12:27:30 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

If the disc is not required to play the game I could theoretically install and update the game for myself, and then "sell" the game to a friend and he could install and update the game and then "sell" the game to yet a third party and the cycle continues.  Are you going to tell me that this is an excellent business model to ensure that the game deveolpers receive payment for their work?  Again I must point out that nothing is preventing you from playing the game "as is" from the disk that you have purchased.  Many warranties do not transfer to second owners of a variety of products.  Additional support in the form of patches is not available to a purchaser of a used game for the fact that it can never be verified that you in fact did purchase it and didn't just get a cd key from a friend or by other means.  If you could install the game and patch it, and then sell it to another there would be no need of a CD key in the first place. 

This issue is nothing new in the history of PC games.  Move on and buy another copy and get your money back from your friend if playing the most recent patch is so important.  Many EULA's are not transferrable to a second party.  This isn't some new scheme to hurt you as the consumer.   If there was no cd-key required to update you can be sure that this game would have had far less sales which makes it more difficult for the developer to make patches and expansions and sequels further down the line.  Stardock and Ironclad are not trying to cheat you out of your used purchase.  You can play 1.05 to your hearts content.  Some used games won't let you play them at all so perhaps you should consider yourself as fortunate. 

You have all the rights you need to run the software contained on the disk.  You bought the media but not the license.   There is no instance of DRM software which prevents you from installing the fully functioning program on every PC you run into.  The question is, how bad do you want v1.12?  Bad enough to buy a license for the game? 

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December 18, 2008 2:49:22 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Annatar11,
No, you bought the physical disc that contained the game data.

So the license key in the manual was just for decoration? SoaSE's retail copies don't actually even ship with real keys, you have to buy them separately? Ok, that's pretty cool I guess.


Quoting Simmyaz,
If the disc is not required to play the game I could theoretically install and update the game for myself, and then "sell" the game to a friend and he could install and update the game and then "sell" the game to yet a third party and the cycle continues.  Are you going to tell me that this is an excellent business model to ensure that the game deveolpers receive payment for their work?

It's called "copy protection." The rest of the industry has been using it since the eighties. Perhaps this revolutionary technology has simply eluded the developers.

 

Again I must point out that nothing is preventing you from playing the game "as is" from the disk that you have purchased.

And I must point out that you're a corporate shill. You have no real arguments to support your position except the notion that corporations = infallible.

This issue is nothing new in the history of PC games.

I have been playing PC games since the eighties and this is the first time since Valve's games that I've encountered this issue (MMORPGs and such are excluded). But just because Valve has done something retarded doesn't mean others should follow their example.

 

Move on and buy another copy and get your money back from your friend if playing the most recent patch is so important.

Why the fuck would I give even one cent to greedy assholes like Stardock et al? I do not want to contribute to the death of PC gaming by supporting those who seek to destroy it. And notice how your arguments keep deteriorating: now it's not even important to be able to patch the game. Yeah man who cares about that shit, let's just stop patching games entirely. Besides, patching takes valuable time so corporations lose money, and if corporations lose money that's Bad because corporate profits are the only thing that matter in this world.

Stardock and Ironclad are not trying to cheat you out of your used purchase.

Uh, yes they are. That is not even debatable. They do not inform the consumer that SoaSE is worthless as a used game. I don't even understand how they can legally get away with it.

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December 18, 2008 2:55:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I smell a communist

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December 18, 2008 3:01:10 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

So the license key in the manual was just for decoration? SoaSE's retail copies don't actually even ship with real keys, you have to buy them separately? Ok, that's pretty cool I guess.

The original purchaser agreed to the terms of the very short and concise EULA, which state that the serial is non-transferrable. Having done that, they knowingly resold the box and disc, while they still have the ability to download and play the game. If anyone's to blame here, it's them, considering that person literally still has the game despite handing over the disc.

If you know the person that had it, you can ask them to hand over the account. If you bought it at a store and the person wasn't honest enough to include the account details when they traded it in (note that EB/GS in particular haven't accepted PC trade-ins in 3+ years), there's not much we can do.

 

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December 18, 2008 3:02:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Uh, yes they are. That is not even debatable. They do not inform the consumer that SoaSE is worthless as a used game. I don't even understand how they can legally get away with it.

 

plz give an example of just 1 produkt WORLD WIDE that retains it's value 100% lol you are a joke, QQ i want the same as ppl that paid x2 of what i did, take a breath and listen to yourself

 

this is not a game made for your enjoyment, it's a game made by a privat company to make a profit, saying you want all services without paying said company a cent is just fail on so many levels that this post will most likely be quoted for lul's for years to come

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December 18, 2008 3:35:34 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Mmm. I am in retail and people FRQUENTLY return to my establishment with our products for service (at no charge I might add) that do not purchased directly from me. I take care of them with a smile and hope they come back to purchase something from me. I hope they remembered how they felt about the service and how they were treated.
  But if someone comes to return a stove they don't get to keep the stove too.  They do with software.  And a stove that they've used shows it's use. . not so with software.  They really are different products and need to be handled differently.

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December 18, 2008 3:36:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

This is fantastic/ I love being right! Let me quote myself

Quoting Mori,
I personally dont think anything anyone could say (no matter how true) would change your mind about what you obviously believe is true. 

you say(and I quote you)

And notice how your arguments keep deteriorating

Let me quote you again to respond to that

what the fuck
whatever the fuck
how the fuck
want to fuck
sure as fuck
That's pretty fucked up
and last but not least....... wait for it......
well and truly fucked

 

Now it might just be me, but I think you have deteriorated so far that you are beyond help. My last bit of advice to you.

Sell your PC, lock your door and then the only one you didnt use GFYS

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December 18, 2008 3:43:39 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oh my god, Mori. You win gold. Bravo! Very well done.

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December 18, 2008 4:00:40 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Your friend had the game

Your friend had access to the EULA contained within

Your friend is the greedy asshole who ripped you off

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December 18, 2008 4:22:43 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

What I don't get is why this lot are complaining about Stardock and co making profit.  OF COURSE THEY WANT TO MAKE PROFIT!  If they didn't they would go bust!  But that doesn't mean they aren't making games for our enjoyment as well.

 

Also what I don't quite grasp is what would make you happy either?  What do you want them to do???  Provide you support for free when they get nothing in return?  Using an analogy to a used PC or car etc is irrelevant since the person you are buying it from would not be continuing to use it in that case.  Would you rather have Sins DRM (which is effectively nothing) or Spore DRM?  You can't resell Spore without giving up the account.

 

Just because Stardock and Ironclad are a business out to make money does not make them greedy assholes out to take all your money (they're called EA).

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