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locutus1071
locutus1071
Join Date 07/2008
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A suggestion for dynamic ship movement

January 26, 2009 3:39:09 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I figure this might be general feedback, but it applies to the beta as well, since it really struck me as absurde watching starbase assualts:

 

The ships just SIT THERE and fire / take a pounding.  There is no evasion, no indication that the ships are anything but chesspieces or componeents of a formal line (should at least be a wall) of battle.

 

I don't know how many people here have played the Point Defense systems mod for Homeworld 2,  but that team managed to take fleet battles that were very set-piece like Sins is right now and transform combat into dynamic engagements where even BCs, CAs & CVs engaged in combat maneuvers for position.

 

Not only does it make battles far more interesting to watch, it allows for more opportunities for effective fleet command to turn the tide of a battle.

 

Does something like this belong in Sins?  Is it even possible to implement with this game engine?  I think that if the answer to both those question is yes, this game could gain some much-needed flair that would set it on the next level of space RTS glory.  Space is 3D, so there's no need for ships to stay locked in one spot and in one plane during battle.  It certainly doesn't say much for the imagination of our ship captains.

 

Some youtube links to illustrate what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXTQrtq-Da8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGURvEQxAs4

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locutus1071
Annatar11
Join Date 11/2006
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Reply #1 January 26, 2009 3:44:32 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Does something like this belong in Sins? Is it even possible to implement with this game engine? I think that if the answer to both those question is yes, this game could gain some much-needed flair that would set it on the next level of space RTS glory. Space is 3D, so there's no need for ships to stay locked in one spot and in one plane during battle. It certainly doesn't say much for the imagination of our ship captains.

Personally, I'll have to disagree. Homeworld had much fewer ships than Sins can, and there's a difference between seeing 40-50 ships trying to maneuver, and 300. As for "needing" to maneuver - why, when the ships presumably have tracking computers sophisticated enough to not care?

Now aside from my personal thoughts - this is pretty much a dead horse by now. It's been discussed all through the beta, and the developers said no. They are, however, considering adding the ability to mod it more officially (it can be done now, but a bit haphazard).

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locutus1071
locutus1071
Join Date 07/2008
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Reply #2 January 26, 2009 3:53:55 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Ah, Thanks.  I wasn't here for the discussions during the original sins beta, so I wasn't aware that it had been discussed before, I didn't see in on a quick look through the forums.

 

I was just thinking what an easy time we had adding it to HW2, didn't consider the numbers as much.

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locutus1071
Annatar11
Join Date 11/2006
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Reply #3 January 26, 2009 4:04:31 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

You can play around with it now as a mod if you like. Each ship has its own max speed, acceleration, and deceleration values - so the idea is you play around with the acceleration/deceleration so that when the ship wants to come to a stop it can't in time and overshoots, then has to turn around for another pass. Essentially, high acceleration/low deceleration. You might also have to play around with their overall agility so they make turns faster, as right now they make fairly wide arcs.

Of course, this is more fighter-like strafing than true dynamic movement, but still

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locutus1071
Silveressa
Join Date 08/2006
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Reply #4 January 27, 2009 7:53:24 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Without some sort of called shots ability (in HW 2 you could target the engines, weapons systems, docking bays etc... of ships) moving aorund is pointless. Why bother jockeying for a better postion of fire on their engines if shooting their  bow does the exact damage and effect?

Just seeing the ability to target sub systems of cap ships would add more strategic value to combat.

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locutus1071
wbino
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #5 January 27, 2009 9:01:05 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

       I don't have a problem with the caps and frigates duking it out, what I don't like is when ships are on TOP of each other firing away. Almost like that Police Squad with Leslie Nelsien having a shootout from behind garbage cans 3 feet away from each other. 

 

      Is their a way so that ships keep a minimum distance from each other? If so it should be increased, space battles are meant to be LONG range.

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locutus1071
locutus1071
Join Date 07/2008
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Reply #6 January 27, 2009 11:24:24 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Silveressa: The point is that battles look a little more realistic, and secondly, that you are able then to engage non-frontline units.  For example, if the enemy has groups of repair cruisers or command ships behind a wall of CAs, or LRM frigates in the rear, then those ships are forced to either maneuver, or be pounded rather hard.  It would seem to reduce the effectiveness of artillery frigates, but it might make sense for a Vasari fleet commander to send some CLs of FGs over / below the enemy line to get at lighter units.

 

Which is another point I'd like to make, to complement the one wbino makes: being limited to a 2D plane, your options for micro-managing your fleet to gain a better tactical position are SEVERELY limited in large fleet engagements, because the battlespace is so bloody crowded that ships literally can't maneuver around each other.  At some of the ranges I routinely see, I'm surprised boading actions aren't implemented, or you don't start seeing your CA's going on ramming missions.

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locutus1071
MindsEye
Join Date 05/2008
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Reply #7 January 28, 2009 1:36:19 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I wouldnt really like the ships flying all over and across from each other as it would make it hard to select units and it would be hard to see what is going on. Its already to hard(to near impossible sometimes) to select a unit from the side menu. That really needs fixed. It is so annoying.

A simple fix would be to make the top of the menu go up like the bottom does when it adds something instead of moving everything down and up.

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locutus1071
Unknown924
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #8 January 29, 2009 3:13:29 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

As for "needing" to maneuver - why, when the ships presumably have tracking computers sophisticated enough to not care?

Weapon Firing Arcs.  If the weapon can't physicaly aim at where you are, then even 100% hit rate will not help.

Good point on the number of ships involved though - it would make large battles much more confusing.  Having it as a mod option would be very nice, say by giving each ship a flight physics entry, ex movementType = FIGHTER

 

Longer range would be nice but I don't see that happening outside of mods right now.

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locutus1071
Blair Fraser
Join Date 10/2006
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Reply #9 January 29, 2009 3:26:28 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

As Annatar said, we're looking at the option to give frigates "fighter" type physics as a mod option for the Entrenchment release.

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locutus1071
locutus1071
Join Date 07/2008
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Reply #10 January 29, 2009 8:41:27 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Thanks for that Blair, I look forward to seeing the modders run with it.

 

Does anyone have ideas about what, if anything, should be done about the collision-range engagements between fleets we see sometimes?  Or does that more properly belong in a new thread?

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locutus1071
Caydr
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #11 January 30, 2009 5:24:00 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Like unknown924 said, firing arcs are really important.  For instance, if you have a battleship at the edge of its firing range attacking some enemies, most of its firepower is wasted.  You'd be better off with a dreadnaught.  If you move the battleship into the thick of it, its firepower is tripled or quadrupled.  Or so it seems.

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