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smv1978
smv1978
Join Date 05/2008
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complaints about strikecraft

February 16, 2009 11:28:58 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think everyone really needs to step back and seriously think about the current condition with strikecraft.

Are they overpowered? i would agree. but not really very much. spam your own fighters, and then when all his are gone, run your ships over his carriers. And if he runs, so what? you'll have hordes of fighters ready again because they *gasp* rebuilt instantly, right? If the other guy is REALLY into his carriers, build 50 flak frigates, bunch 'em up, jump 'em in first, and march across the grav well, then jump in your main fleet. He got several hundred supply of carriers past your frontline? what were you j***king off? you should be able to see them 2 jumps away from your front line AND if he does skip past he will be without antimatter, assuming you have starbases deployed. If he stops to destroy them, well, now he's been stalled.

Part of the problem of nerfing strike craft is that, one, they really are quite powerful in numbers, just like real air forces,  and also that they are a major component of the advent's arsenal.I would agree this supposed instant build is insane, but i've not really seen it on my advent carriers. the only things that do so are the mines, and they cost tons to deploy anyway.

i would also agree that flak could use a damage boost, however, i do not think there is an issue with their accuracy; space is an open place, and i imagine that trying to track 8-12 high speed targets on multiple vectors would be a trying task for any frigate crew. I do however think that maybe they should be a little better at filling the sky (space) with lead/plasma/missiles/whatever.That is the whole point of flak; SC are weak, but fast, so just blow up the whole sky.

Just my $.02

Update!

I just checked the stats on some of my advent ships in a late game savei had. Everyhthing full upgraded,

my drone hosts have 50% greater health & 33% greater shields then my crusaders. the drone hosts also have 6 more antimatter than my level 10 progenitor (wtf?)

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smv1978
CreditSuisse
Join Date 10/2006
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Reply #1 February 16, 2009 11:39:08 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Everything you said here is what I said.  

ABOVE all before I continue, I just want to tell the developers to read all the threads about Carrier/Strike Craft spam in the general forum. There ARE A LOT of threads on it. 

Thay said, I don't advocate nerf Strike Craft to shit, they still need to be around to hard counter LF spam and do moderate dmg overall, just not the insanity that is happening right now every single night.

My other major proposal is generally buffing Capital Ships as well as giving them "some sort" of Flak turrets (doesn't have to be that good) and buffing them in general for all factions so they don't die in 15 seconds to focus fire spam. I think letting the only non-spammable ships in the game be able to at least stand their ground is a good idea.  

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smv1978
Levelheaded
Join Date 12/2007
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Reply #2 February 18, 2009 6:17:29 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Caps should have the privilege to get up to 90% mitigation

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smv1978
Tridus
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #3 February 18, 2009 7:50:06 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I don't think there would be so many complaints about Carriers if Flak were more effective then they are now. Right now you need huge swarms of Flak to put any real dent in strikecraft, and Flak don't do that well against anything else.

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smv1978
burnout1620
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #4 February 18, 2009 3:13:42 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Levelheaded,
reply 2
Caps should have the privilege to get up to 90% mitigation

While we're at it, why stop at level 10?

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smv1978
»Dragoon«
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #5 February 18, 2009 3:31:23 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think Strikecraft are at perfect balance right now. What need balanced are the Carriers and the cost to replace lost strikecrafts.

For carriers their HP and Shields can stay the same but they should be slower so ships have easier time to catch them.

Or the game should provide an ability for each faction to slow them down. It should not be higher than tech lvl 2 if it has to be researched.

Additionally the antimatter cost for replacing lost strikecraft should be risen so losses has longer consequences.

Really neat would be if the antimatter cost are affect by culture. So in enemy territory it takes you longer to replace them ,but around your own area of influence you can quickly replace your losses.

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smv1978
ravok2789
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #6 February 18, 2009 3:36:28 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

strike craft ARE over powered

why?

THERE IS NO COUNTER TO THEM. strike craft cant kill strike craft flak cant kill strike craft nothing kills them they are just there destroying your fleet

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smv1978
chazzie
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #7 February 18, 2009 3:58:18 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I personally agree that the strike craft are to powerful, my only suggestion is that the flak craft/turrets need a slight buff. 

The problem is that changing the balance to much can wreak the game and you end up with redundant units, for example if the vasari had a bomber nerf then their ablity to deal with torp cruisers would suffer.  I also belive that you could risk ruining cap-ship carriers as well.

Its very, very difficult to do balance well - as one other poster had stated in another post, you end up with dead units that require patches to bring back the unit into the game, take a look at the mines in 2.5, there has been loads of posts to have them removed because they are unbalanced, it just takes time to put right.

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smv1978
CreditSuisse
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Reply #8 February 18, 2009 10:29:35 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Ok, ok...

Let's NOT get confused here. We don't want a STRIKE CRAFT NERF, we want a CARRIER nerf. WHY?

1.) The Light Carrier has more hp and shields than a melee HC units (Kiodiaks, etc) and just as fast also much lower on the tech tree. 

2.) Flak can kill SC all day long but its the CARRIER that is replacing any SC it loses in 15 seconds.

3.) The Light Carrier with its unlimited range can jump out the very second it actually gets in any danger, essentially making them un-counterable. With a buff to FLAK (say 10-15% don't over-do it) SC are COUNTERABLE, but the CARRIERs REMAIN UNCOUNTERABLE.

Hate the carrier not the strike craft. The irony is though, the capital ship carrier really really needs a buff since its so craptastic compared to cheaper Light Carrier Spam.  

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smv1978
the_only_normal_1
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #9 February 18, 2009 11:27:02 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Hate the carrier not the strike craft. The irony is though, the capital ship carrier really really needs a buff since its so craptastic compared to cheaper Light Carrier Spam.

That is one thing I have never thought to mention but always find myself thinking in-game -- why do cap-ship carriers suck so badly?

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smv1978
chazzie
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Reply #10 February 19, 2009 3:29:02 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Hate the carrier not the strike craft. The irony is though, the capital ship carrier really really needs a buff since its so craptastic compared to cheaper Light Carrier Spam.

So very true - I thought that from day one.

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smv1978
CreditSuisse
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Reply #11 February 22, 2009 1:42:55 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

That is why they need a buff

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smv1978
Howdidudothat
Join Date 04/2008
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Reply #12 February 23, 2009 8:53:04 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Carriers do not need a nerf.  The flak is now fine, and now the LFs just need a little buff.  That is all.

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smv1978
Wraymond
Join Date 02/2003
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Reply #13 February 23, 2009 2:39:10 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

perhaps if the Capital Carrier was allowed to host more SC they wouldn't need an unfair change in build time. I mean a cap carrier is much larger than SC cruiser.

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burnout1620
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Reply #14 February 23, 2009 4:37:01 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Cap carrier should have its max squads when its constructed, a total of maybe 7 or 8 squads.

As the ship levels up, it should get the usual abilities and hull/armor/shield/AM improvements, but it should also get a slight strikecraft damage improvement as well.

I don't think that is too much of a buff, considering now a low level cap carrier is a waste of 50 supply. Also, one can't really spam cap carriers unless he would want to go with out the other important attributes and abilities of the more powerful combat caps.

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smv1978
Howdidudothat
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Reply #15 February 23, 2009 4:50:32 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Cap carrier should have its max squads when its constructed, a total of maybe 7 or 8 squads.

As the ship levels up, it should get the usual abilities and hull/armor/shield/AM improvements, but it should also get a slight strikecraft damage improvement as well.

If that happened, you could clear neutrals in seconds.  Every skilled player (and noob) would choose the cap carrier as their first cap.  I know I would.  That thing would be a wrecking maching early game, and early game rushes would be uncounterable.

BTW, I would like to point out that I was the first one to point out that carriers would be used a lot more in v1.1:  https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/317041

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smv1978
Deflagratio
Join Date 02/2009
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Reply #16 February 23, 2009 4:56:54 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think with beta 3 the carrier frigates are fine now.  If you spam 200 of anything, you're gonna have a crazy powerful force no matter what, even with Cobalt light frigates (Try it with sabotage reactor!).  Think of it logically, if 1000 bombers are swarming around 1 ship, how long til you think it should be destroyed?  But now with the new build rate penalty, the unfair, free and endless swarm was balanced I think, and the Anti Strike Craft cruisers range increase helped quite a bit.

 

I think a lot of you people are just venting cause someone stormed you with a million carrier cruisers, but like I said, storm them with as much of any other unit and it'll have roughly the same outcome, it's not like Carrier Cruisers are free you know, they still had to secure enough resources and what not to research and spam them, so maybe you should step on the preemptive attacking?

 

AND if it REALLY pissed you off that much, use Galaxy forge to make a map full of Plasma storms.

 

Before people talk about nerfing a unit, talk about ungimping some. Like

All Capital ships: Cost far too much to deploy and are not cost effective until level 6.  They need to take less damage from force fire more so than inflict any more damage.

 

If there's one thing I absolutely love about Sins of a Solar Empire, it's at the end of the day the game comes down to who amasses the most powerful fleet instead of Rock Paper Scissors counters where 1 unit could kill 5000 of another type (Rock Soldier Vs. Tank in EVERY other Rts game) and aside from the capital ship thingy, I think the game is workin fine.

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smv1978
burnout1620
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #17 February 23, 2009 4:56:54 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

oops double post

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smv1978
ravok2789
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #18 February 23, 2009 4:57:09 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Howdidudothat,
reply 15

Cap carrier should have its max squads when its constructed, a total of maybe 7 or 8 squads.

As the ship levels up, it should get the usual abilities and hull/armor/shield/AM improvements, but it should also get a slight strikecraft damage improvement as well.
If that happened, you could clear neutrals in seconds.  Every skilled player (and noob) would choose the cap carrier as their first cap.  I know I would.  That thing would be a wrecking machine early game, and early game rushes would be uncounterable.

not if everyone made them it would just make the lrfs useless

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smv1978
burnout1620
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #19 February 23, 2009 4:57:42 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Howdidudothat,
reply 15
If that happened, you could clear neutrals in seconds.  Every skilled player (and noob) would choose the cap carrier as their first cap.  I know I would.  That thing would be a wrecking maching early game, and early game rushes would be uncounterable.

Good point.

But, the only wells ANY cap can't clear quickly are the terran worlds. Also, it wouldn't take long for players to get flak up early game.

I see your point though. What other way is there to make a cap carrier worth a damn then?

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smv1978
mja5000
Join Date 08/2008
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Reply #20 February 23, 2009 4:58:14 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think people don't realize that if you slow down the CVL, it will be caught by CAs, and that defeats the entire purpose. If a CA can get into range of a CVL, said CVL will die.

yes, CVLs might have more health then a CA, but said CA has more armor, and that is Capital level armor.

 

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smv1978
Howdidudothat
Join Date 04/2008
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Reply #21 February 23, 2009 5:07:04 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I see your point though. What other way is there to make a cap carrier worth a damn then?

Their abilities, DPS, planet seiging, and hull/shield points.

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smv1978
burnout1620
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #22 February 23, 2009 5:55:45 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Howdidudothat,
reply 21

Their abilities, DPS, planet seiging, and hull/shield points.

As far as DPS and hull/shield are concerned don't you think you would have to do the same to the other caps for each race to keep them realtively balanced amongst themselves?

So many players build caps solely for bombardment so that being said it could cause some cap carrier spam maybe?

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ravok2789
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #23 February 23, 2009 6:52:44 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting burnout1620,
reply 22

Quoting Howdidudothat, reply 21
Their abilities, DPS, planet seiging, and hull/shield points.

As far as DPS and hull/shield are concerned don't you think you would have to do the same to the other caps for each race to keep them realtively balanced amongst themselves?

So many players build caps solely for bombardment so that being said it could cause some cap carrier spam maybe?

what you where proposingwould be ABUSED

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