Researching Techs » Forum Post by Frogboy

Quoting Frogboy,

I don't know if this counts as tech randomization but we are planning to have a pool of techs that are are inserted into games based on whether they make their probability roll.

I.e. certain techs would show up in some games but not in others. Not core techs but ones that spice things up in different directions.

This is game is going to be soo cool, thanks again for the update!

I agree with Denryu, I hope it works with spells too.

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In this UI, the player has researched the ability to research 3 things at once (no penalty).

It seems to me like it should be the other way around. There should be penalties for focusing on only one research item. It makes sense from a logical perspective - adding more people to a project has diminishing returns. If a nation put all of its resources into researching a single thing then yes, it would go faster, but there would be a lot of waste.

I also like it from a gameplay perspective, as it penalizes people for going full bore down one tech path at the cost of completely ignoring other aspects of research. It can be done in an emergency to get a critical tech, but the more prudent thing in the long term would be to keep multiple research projects going on at once.

certain techs would show up in some games but not in others.

Awesome!

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Quoting Cauldyth,

reply 2

In this UI, the player has researched the ability to research 3 things at once (no penalty).
It seems to me like it should be the other way around. There should be penalties for focusing on only one research item. It makes sense from a logical perspective - adding more people to a project has diminishing returns. If a nation put all of its resources into researching a single thing then yes, it would go faster, but there would be a lot of waste.

I also like it from a gameplay perspective, as it penalizes people for going full bore down one tech path at the cost of completely ignoring other aspects of research. It can be done in an emergency to get a critical tech, but the more prudent thing in the long term would be to keep multiple research projects going on at once.

Seconded

Edit: Primarily as it would nudge it slightly closer to the system broadly agreed upon in this thread: http://forums.elementalgame.com/329572/page/4/#replies i.e. the more specific and focused your research (potentially in an effort to min max) the greater cost you pay for that focus.. and as a result you get some really interesting decisions to make

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Hey frog, this keeps looking better and better. I am really looking forward to more and more info as we approach the beta. I will likely be ordering this very soon. (MOM was my 2nd favorite game of all time.)

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Looks and sounds great, I'm really looking forward to checking this out. In terms of "future tech 1" type techs, I never did like those in Civilization IV. I would have rather had the tech tree just end, but that is my own personal preference.

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I don't know if this counts as tech randomization but we are planning to have a pool of techs that are are inserted into games based on whether they make their probability roll.

I.e. certain techs would show up in some games but not in others. Not core techs but ones that spice things up in different directions.

Sounds good from a gameplay standpoint, but for modders (like myself) I hope that there is a cheat to make them all appear: debugging when you have to continually reload and tempt the RNG does NOT sound like fun.

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I def love never ending tech, as I feel bad when all the infrastructure I put into teching is made useless. And I love a good turtle...

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I think I'm going to have to mod in hot air balloon tech as one of the rare possibilities. Might as well throw clockwork and steampunk in there while I'm at it.

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Quoting Scoutdog,

reply 6

Sounds good from a gameplay standpoint, but for modders (like myself) I hope that there is a cheat to make them all appear: debugging when you have to continually reload and tempt the RNG does NOT sound like fun.

From the sound of it, you could always just make a tech tagged as a core technology until you're done debugging.

Although I wouldn't mind a game option to force all techs to be in the game.

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I think Landi already asked this but I'm curious to know how the tech randomization will actually work. Will these randomized techs be available to every faction in a given game? Or will randomized techs differ from faction to faction in a given game? I think the latter would be cool. It would defnitely make each faction more unique.

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Quoting pigeonpigeon,

reply 9

Quoting Scoutdog, reply 6Sounds good from a gameplay standpoint, but for modders (like myself) I hope that there is a cheat to make them all appear: debugging when you have to continually reload and tempt the RNG does NOT sound like fun.
From the sound of it, you could always just make a tech tagged as a core technology until you're done debugging.

Although I wouldn't mind a game option to force all techs to be in the game.

Having an option like that would be pretty much a must. In the end we should be able to play the game the way we like it, so having an option to force each and every tech in should be standard I think. If it does not get included then it will be modded in anyway.

Also why on earth would any one keep reloading in order to find a certain tech? Can you not just go with whatever the RNG provides? Is that not the point?

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Also why on earth would any one keep reloading in order to find a certain tech? Can you not just go with whatever the RNG provides? Is that not the point?

Modding. Kinda need to make sure your new tech actually works.

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I think Landi already asked this but I'm curious to know how the tech randomization will actually work. Will these randomized techs be available to every faction in a given game? Or will randomized techs differ from faction to faction in a given game? I think the latter would be cool. It would defnitely make each faction more unique.

I think that Brad implied it could work either way, considering that we will have faction-specific tech trees: it seems like the RNG starts with a tree that has all of the techs in it, then removes some that are not marked as "always include". Whether the techs it "prunes" are faction-specific or not is up to chance. Given the paucity of information, however, this is only my best guess.

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Anybody notice that glow in the upper left of the "education" tech's area? It looks like the light shinning through the clouds has clipped out of the emblem circle into the black area.

either that or the little compass looking thing and that glow is ' "selection cursor" of some kind, in which case we really need to get something more apparent.

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I like it! I hope the research is far more interesting than it was in GalCiv2.

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Anybody notice that glow in the upper left of the "education" tech's area? It looks like the light shinning through the clouds has clipped out of the emblem circle into the black area.

either that or the little compass looking thing and that glow is ' "selection cursor" of some kind, in which case we really need to get something more apparent.

I see it, and I think it's a "completion counter": as you research more and more into the tech, that glow expands around the ring. Here, it appears that Brad only put about one RP into the tech.

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The "few technologies, but with infinite levels" looks nice in my view. It makes me wonder how trading technologies would work though. Will we be able to trade directly the upper tech level we know, or will we simply give them a boost. Ex : I have Housing level 4, and I want to give it to someone with only Housing level 1. Will he goes straight to level 4, or will he either get a big research bonus until he reaches level 4, or either get midway between both, getting to level 2?

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Def should not get full tech in trading, bad balance for multiplayer games.

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In this UI, the player has researched the ability to research 3 things at once (no penalty). This option gives us a lot more flexibility in terms of letting people make interesting choices on what kind of civilization they want to develop (we’ll explain more on this as we get closer).

This will only be useful if there are bonuses for researching several things at once. In Dominions you can split research as you like but it's mostly less efficient than focusing on one path then the next. In MOO (1), splitting research could be beneficial as it gave you a slightly better research rate, but getting tech1 on turn 10 and tech 2 on turn 20 remained better than getting both techs on turn 19 in 99% of the cases.

I hope Elemental will feature something which really boosts multiple/parallel research, otherwise it will just be a waste of techs and UI space.

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Quoting LDiCesare,

reply 19

This will only be useful if there are bonuses for researching several things at once. In Dominions you can split research as you like but it's mostly less efficient than focusing on one path then the next. In MOO (1), splitting research could be beneficial as it gave you a slightly better research rate, but getting tech1 on turn 10 and tech 2 on turn 20 remained better than getting both techs on turn 19 in 99% of the cases.

I hope Elemental will feature something which really boosts multiple/parallel research, otherwise it will just be a waste of techs and UI space.

Capitalism 2 did something similar with research labs. The more labs you put working on one project, the less benefit each one gives. Lets say the first one gives 10 points, the second one would give 9 if working on the same project, the third would give 8, the next 7, etc (the max was 9). Those numbers aren't real, but they illustrate the system.

If you REALLY wanted to accelerate something you could put all 9 labs at an R&D center to work on it, and in certain cases that made sense. For the most part though you were better off spreading things out more (groups of 3 was pretty typical).

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here's a concern:

what advantage is there in the system right now, where you'd want to split your resereach 3 ways, instead of researching each one at a time and getting the benefit quicker? Is there different types of research?

Something else needs to be said in order for this to make sense to me as it is described right now.

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I was wondering about that myself...... but then, Brad did say that you have to gain the ability to research three techs at once, so maybe it's some sort of over-unity system where it actually takes less time to research techs together than to research them in sequence..... like if in GC2 you could get the ability to put your military, social, and tech sliders ALL at 50%....

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more good news. interesting option to be able to research multiple techs simultaneously. and of course slightly randomised tech trees are also a plus. it really does increasingly look like a very good game.

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I noticed a number of people are basing their assumptions on being able to research three techs simultaneously. It appears that you are not limited to three simultaneous projects. There appear to be scroll buttons above and below the technologies being researched. Additionally, there are “Add” and “Remove” buttons at the bottom of the screen, presumable to add and remove technologies from the active research list.

I think the multiple research system defiantly has its merits, but agree that there needs to be some incentive to a more natural, diversified research plan. Perhaps there could be a benefit for researching technologies in similar “fields” at the same time.

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I have a suggestion that I haven't seen implemented in other games, which is prerequisite units or buildings for research. Well, I've seen prereq buildings, but not units.

In a PBM game I used to play your mages could either study a new level or do stuff in the field. The opportunity cost of advancing your magic was not using the magician himself while you were doing that research. I'd love to see a little of that in the Spell research tree (or Tech as well, if it makes sense). You can't research how to enchant weapons, or brew potions without having trained an alchemist or enchanter and stuffed him to work in the building.

I like the idea of tying people to the research rather than having advancements being more abstractly researched. This actually dovetails to some extent with the concept of heroes, but more like key personnel. Does that blacksmith stay at home and churn out stuff, does he team up with the alchemist to help research how to enchant weapons, or does he go off with the army to give an advantage there (maybe better weapons maintenance or some such).

That might create a usability issue though if you've got too many key personnel to handle, but it was quite a bit of fun in the PBM game to agonize over whether I needed that wizard's power now or to let him study to get even more powerful for later.

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