Well... lately there have been alot of threads about how much the vasari suck.

and on multiplayer... I have seen quite a few less vasari... and quite a few more tec.

(seriously... that lovely akkan made tec playable again... I love it.)

SO... ima start a thread on how to play vasari... in multiplayer. (if anyone felt like making a equally epic post for advent and tec, I would love to add it... change the name of the thread, and we would have a serious sticky canidate)

Table of contents: 

• Early game
•      Intro
•      That first capital ship
•      Beginning build order
• Surviving till mid game
•      General stratigy
•      More specific stratigy (not done yet)
• Mid game (not started)
• Late game(not started)
• Other helpfull vasari hints (not dont yet)

Early game

Stratigy starts before the game even starts... see who your up against... deside if you even want/need to go vasari. dont go vasari if you dont think its a good idea, or it would be usefull to your team. this really depends on the game size and the number of players... so its up to you to deside what is important.

Now... everyone is readied up and the host hits the start button.

Just like anyother race... the first thing to do... is to figure out where you are. build a few scouts and zoom out.

You want alot of scouts. you want to explore, you want to capture as many neutrals as you possibly can and you want to know what your up against. I will take a bit more about neutrals later... but... get alot of scouts. your first 100 fleet points should generally consist of scouts(10), 2 light frigs (to help with milita... if you feel like getting 4 extra scouts instead, go ahead.) a colonizer and a cap ship.

First capital ship

Alot of people chose the death egg... and the death egg is a great capital ship... and alot of the time your prolly going to end up picking the death egg... but as great as the death egg is... it may not be the best choice in all situations. If you landed your self an econ spot...  the deathegg is a definate good idea... if you landed yourself a defencive spot that you know you cant hold... then once again the death egg is a good idea... but If you think your going to end up in tough battles... you might want to try the kortul or the skirantra...

The kortul has rediculous not-dieing power... great for... not dieing. Jam weapons may seem pathetic compared to bitch slap or flackburst... but it needs less antimatter... and actually stops them from attacking you... (something that flackburst... does not do... and bitchslap kinda accomplishes... but uasually the sc can get one volley in as the halcyon does its thing... with the kortul... you see the strike craft coming and you hit the button and your safe... hopefully safe enough to give your fighters/sentinals some time to make a serious dent in their strike craft.  THe only passive interupt/am sucking ablity in the game is also rather (very) nice.  the sova animation bug is also nice to have.  Its lv 6 may seem weak... but in reality... i can be very powerfull is used right... your fleet does 30% more damage off the bat, and then every enemy ship you pop causes damage to nearby ships... if used right... you can trigger a chain reaction that causes the entire affected enemy fleet to go poof. (works best when fighting LRMS, scouts, or lfs... and other ships that have little hp/armor does not work well against flack/carrier/hcs; ships with alot of hp/armor.)

The skirantra also is a nice starting capital ship... a good amount of strike craft early... the only ablitiy in the game the heals strike craft (not to mention everything else)  its like progenator shield restore... only it cant be interrupted... its not channeling... and heals hull... (although it heals less)  The mircophasing arura is great if you have alot of carriers... not so much if you dont have alot of carriers.  its also not so great of your strike craft are not in range of the ablity.

The other two capitalships dont really make great starting caps... although they can be in very rare situations... if your going to be ganging up on one person... them as a starting cap can be very usefull... subversion to severly slow ship and structure construction on his homeworld (make that feed he is getting useless).... (and a ionbolt-like effect to shmakc thier capital ships about) and while the egg is great at bombing... at lv 6... the vulk is much more effective at lower levels. (and phase missle swarm does more damage than nanites at lv 2 and 3... although the damage is arguably less usefull)

Of course all of this depends on personal preference... your overall stratigy and play style... and the map. so pick what you think is best... but pick it fast, cause you want that capital ship out fighting millitia asap.

Beginning build order... ?

By this time you got your starting cap, your scouts are scouting and you know what your doing (econ, defencive, agressive... exc.)

Vasari ships take a long time to build... depending on what is going on, a second frig factory is not a bad idea... and since you get lrms at tier 1 and starbases at tier 2... you can get away with only a few labs (for a bit...)... expecially if you have feed, or you have so many neutrals you dont know what to do with all the resources.

As vasari... you should prolly get the first fleet supply very soon... because alot of your first 100 fleet supply is off scouting not helping defend... and so you need that extra fleet supply for defence/attack/more neutral grabbing. 

DO NOT GO FOR TRADE PORTS. at least not yet... even in econ spot... they are very pricey that early and you will fall behind.  If your going to build civic labs... build no more than 2... some very very nice researchs for vasari are the resource upgrades, expecially because they stack with your neutrals. earth-like pop upg is not a bad idea either and ice and volc colonziation as they are required (you dont need volc colonizing if there isnt a volc around... (duh).) your in a defencive spot... dont do this... no civic labs for you. ever. at least not for a long while. if your in an agressor spot only do this if you feel confident/have lotza neutrals/feed.

look at your planets... if there are a few planets with a zillion outgoing phase lanes... seriously consider putting 3 refinaries on them... you get them at tier 2... and in such locations they are more effective than trade ports. (if your econ, of course... dont try it if your busy fighting)

The beginning build order is very dependent on the map and your position.  play smart, pay attention... scout and react to your opponnet.

Surviving till mid game

      This is generally the hardest part of playing vasari... and this is the part everyone seems to complain about.... and its hard... expecially a good 1/3 of all the games you play will be allready be over... and you have lost... and this is unavoidable... no matter how well or bad you do... if your team is collapsing... someone lagged out... your captain picked the news and the other team got all the smurfs... or maybe you all got map screwed... So sometimes defeat is unavoidable... but here hopefully you get a few hints on how to make sure that when your team ends up losing on the fight to mid game it wont be your fault.

General kinda stuff.

     The hardest part of being vasari is that... quite simply, your ships are expencive... and dont deliver the same bang for the buck the other factions get... at least untill you do some mid-late game research... which is of course... a nice little way away.  This means you need to either outproduce the enemy... or you need to out play the enemy... or you need to play dirty.  (or a bit of each)

Outproducing an enemy is hard.. but.. your chose vasari for a reason, remember? You picked vasari because there are not many other vasari... if your going to rush them and keep them down make sure you have a resource advanatage... which means neutrals. I cant really stress neutrals too much. they really really help... and if your going to try and crush him... your going to need them... a second thing your going to need is infomation... you should have 10-15 scouts... more than almost anyone else... most of those are playing neutral tag... but everyonec in a while (most of the time) you should be pulling a few close by and see what your enemy is doing... If you see 3 temples of hostility... you should know how to react. if you see civic labs... you should know how to react... but heres the thing... you got 250 fleet supply and it needs to be filled and you need to fill it before he fills his...because you only got about 200 fleet supply to play with for attacking. (scouts, remember?)... now, go forth and do some damage.

Outplaying the enemy is even harder... (unless your crazy good)... if you dont have a neutral advantage (say... he got a 3 rock plasma connected to his hw or something) your going to need skills... watch his fleet... if his fleet goes after a planet that is between you, and it has a large millita... his cap ship might jsut be taking damage... jump in at the right time and you have yourself a antimatter and shield depleted capitalship ripe for picking.  Not going to happen? maybe hes going after you... leave your fleet on the opposite side of the grav well... he has to treck all the way over to you... figure out what ship he is attacking... have it run back a grav well where you have a repair bay... your ships are weak per supply... but your ships are the hardest to kill. Use that to your advantage. 

Honestly... if your going to take this route... you have to know the skill level of your opponent... and you have to be above that.

I cant really tell you how to play dirty... sometimes it means taking risks... sometimes it means doing something that seems odd... and kinda funny. (ever tried kiting a fleet that consists of 1 maurader with distort gravity and a bunch of carriers?... even his light figs will have trouble keeping up.)  Look at some of that lowlying fruit... maybe a phase missle platform with jamming nanites... 10 min (or so) without antimatter regen... on his captial ship is something preety mean to do.  be sneaking with a few colony frigs. use your imagination... and scout... and react.  (a building starbase is kinda meh if he has a bunch of carriers close by.. but fun if he scout spammed.... in other words... dont pull out a trick that prolly wont work. 

 That First Battle.

Well... general stratagy is all nice and dandy... but really... more specificly you need specific things.

And more specificly... the most important thing that will help to make sure you not die (and make it to mid game) is to win that first battle.

You know what ima talking about... when both your capitalships wander into that gravity well... and.. both of you immediatly completly ignore the millita and fight eachother.  One of you colonizes that planet and starts building a repair bay... the other starts bombing the planet and kills the constructor ship.

This battle has a tendancy to deside which one of you will get the upper hand for a good portion of the game... so to have a better chance of doing well... you should do your best to win this first battle...

So how do you win that first battle? Well... hopefully you have scouted around and you know what might pop up with that capitalship at that planet... and how many... at least a rough estimation. (like... none... a few or hollyzhizznts hes rushing you.)  I cant provide you with exactly how to win that battle... as it could be anything... but it really helps to win it (or... if you know thats not possible... never fight it)... however... i can shed some light on some things.

The dreaded Illum spam

Oh noes! your against an advent player... and he has 3 hostility labs! what will you do!

Illum spamming has 2 weaknesses... First... it takes considerable resources, to get a tier 3 tech... just like that.  Second... it takes a good bit of time to get a tier 3 tech... just like that... and a bit more time to get a few illums off the assembly line.

Now the obvious way to counter illums is to... build units that counter illums... and this works... except... lucky for you... your vasari... and your ships are worse at countering illums than say... tec or advent.  Also... your main counter (fighers in carriers) requires 3 labs... (although a ok counter, sentinals, are avalible at tier 2)... A mix of carriers and flack will work to counter illums... but illums will do a fair job at ripping things apart if you dont mirco your stuff.  THis will work if yoru on the defencive... and he wondered in to a planet you have a repair bay or two at... and his capital ships is -100 antimatter from warping in... but dont try to take the fight to him (unless you are doing really well)... a nice little advantage of carriers (effectivly infinate range) is negated if his beams can fire as soon as you warp in.

A perhaps less obvious way to counter illums (and this is only possible when your closer to your opponent)... is to take advantage of their weakness... and never let them get a critical mass of illums.  You get your LRM at tier 1... eaiser and cheaper than a tier 3... so you can get a number advanatage... and have a few assaliants with your capital ship before the first illum is off the assembly line... that first battle may go well for you... as when the first of the stream of illums enters the grav well... you will allready have a few assalients (and, a stream of your own)... if you got this, you just might have ended up on top... but remember... while he may not have gone to 250 supply you will have needed to by this time (cause.... you hava a bagillion scouts gathering neutrals for you) inorder to keep a (required) stream of reinforcments on the way.

Another something that may just work if your realllly close... and you know hes illum rushing... is rush back harder... if you dont spend any money on any labs or any research... perhaps you can get some tier 0 ships on his astroid before that third temple finishes building... or maybe have enough skrimishers sitting next to his frig factory that you can kill any illums that pop out... this is redicuoulsy specific... and is prolly a bad idea most of the time... but if you have feed  and a second frig factory... and hes really close... and you know he used alot of his starting resoruces on researching illums... it just might work... and then hopefully you can use your neutral advantage to never even let him get off the ground.

while we are talking about scout/LF rushing...

The scout/lf rush

something very popular these days... with the buffed lfs and the uberness of advent scouts... you may have to face this.

the worst part about it is that he prolly has civic labs so if you dont have a neutral advantage... hes going to get an economic advantage.

advent ships also take so little fleet spots... that you will end up outnumbered significantly... almost 2 to 1.... and he will have quite a few more "aprox fleet strenght" hashes than you.... and it will look scarry.. but dont be afraid... you have the strenght to overcome this.

however, I dont... at least not tonight. I will continue this tomorrow (this thread is taking alot longer than i thought it would!

Your goal here is to not die... and survive till mid game... killing your opponet is good... but honestly... it jsut may not happen... in which case you need to focuse on not dieing... and surviving till you have a respectible economy and a few labs... which pulls us into the mid game...

Mid Game

good job... you made it here... unfortunatly I didnt. I will type this up later.

Other general stuff.

Sell your resources to other players! if you find yourself with 2000 crystal... dont sell it to the black market... open on the black market screen and sell it to other players... (remember to bump the prices up to 100%) this way you get FULL PRICE on your resoures (instead of 1/2 price of just hitting the sell button) sure... you have to wait for other players to buy your stuff... and its a balancing act between "I need credits now" and "i have extra resorues"... but play the market a bit... you may find it to be very effective.

Keep an eye on your neutrals... someone might be sneaky and try to take them away from you... dont let them. take a few extra second away from admiring your preety death egg and check on your scouts... build replacements... and if you need to send like 10 to a single grav well and clear it out. neutrals are key. dont forget about them.

Some intresting battle outcomes 

I feel it nice to share some battle outcomes just for fun.

Well... darvin asked about illum rushing... and scout/lf spam... and while I felt the illum was easy to answer... and while i could answer scout/lf rushing... after leaving it hanging... I thought i might want to try some battles and see what the outcomes were.

so...

14 Illums vs 6 carriers.  

 The Vasari player pays 3.14% more in absolute cost via the 4.5 credits per resoruce method. (not including labs)  exact same research and lab requirements. 

The vasari... being a smart vasari started with his carriers as far away from the battle as possible. the advent, being a smart advent moved his illums as close to the carriers as possible to maximize side beams. No further micro.

The Vasari lost 1 carrier... one was severly damaged and 2 had thier shields depleted. No illums survived.

14 Illums vs 6 carriers.

Same battle as before, only this time i microed my carriers to run away right before they died... this way thier fighters would not fight on after they had "died"... I have to micro 2 carriers away... a third was severly damaged. no illums survived.

6 desciples and 6 scouts vs 6 assailants

THe vasari player pays about 30% more. no micro.  Does not include lab or research costs. 2 scouts survive... not the way to counter scout/lf rushing.

20 scouts vs 8 sentinels.

The vasari pays almost 50%! more to build the ships (does not include lab or research costs). the vasari ships were mircored to get close to the scouts. throughout the battle the sentinals on average had only 2 of their 4 banks firing. (eg, thier firepower was about 1/2 of what it could be)  2 sentinals died. all scouts dead.

10 illums vs 12 sentinels.

The vasari player pays a pathetic 2% more (not including lab and research costs... which ofcourse the vasari has the advantage here)  4 sentinels survive... of which one was severly damaged.

 14 disciples vs 8 skrims.

THe vasari player actually pays 2% less. however... the advent do very well... ending with 9 ships

20 illums vs 20 assaiants

The vasari player actually pays 2.5 credits less per unit... however... the advent do very well once again and win with 11 ships left.

(note: these last two battles... i noticed that a small starting advantage ends up with overwelming victory... its like an exponential function... it doesnt take long for it to get really big really fast)

7 disciples and 7 scouts vs 6 skrims

Identical fleet costs. Ima actually kinda suprised at how well the vasari did... as they managed to destroy all the LFs and significantly damage one of the scouts before being destroyed.

10 disciples and 10 scouts vs 12 sentinals

Vasari player pays 30% more, not including lab costs.  Sentinals were placed between the gap that developes due to scouts having longer range than lfs. 6 disiples, and 5 seekers survive... although 1 disipled was severly damaged and one seeker was barely hanging on.  While i was hoping that this would do better than it did... it makes sence considering sentinals are not meant to attack either one of those units... and they focus fire on the units that deal the least damage to them.

I tried carriers... too depressing to post (not really... but I lost everything i typed up about it... they killed the scouts nicely and killed a few disciples)

11 disciples and 11 scouts vs 6  assailants and 6 sentinals

 Vasari had to pay 30% more, not including lab costs. sentinals were microed inbetween the disciple and scout gap. no further micro. 3 disiples and 9 scouts survived.

20 scouts and 20 disciples vs 6 carriers and 6 assailanets

This is depressing... as this was my second highest hope for defeating scout/lf rushing.  The vasari has to pay the almost standard 30% more... once again not including research costs. 15 disciples are left when the last assailant dies. (the carriers were allready dead)

15 scouts and 15 disciples vs 1 colony ship

wow. this is amazing.  The vasari payed 30% less than the advent player (although, not including labs and research)... but... just wow.  while the starbase started built... it survived with 2250 hp.

15 scouts and 15 disciples vs 1 colony ship

huh.  The vasari payed 30% less than the advent player (although, not including labs and research)....  This time the starbase (in a neutral grav well) started building the second the enemy fleet warped in.  11 scouts and 9 disciples remained... but that is very close... if there was a planet in the way of the advent fleet that they had to go around... or the starbase had a 20 second head start it prolly would have gone the way of the starbase... (starbases have alot of regen)

 20 scouts and 20 disciples vs 1 colony ship

The Advent used 87% more resources than the vasari did (aka 187% vs 100%).  While the starbase started built... and the starbase was destroyed... 13 of each remaining. amazing how much 10 more ships can do.  Of course... we must ask ourselves "why didnt I buy a weapon upgrade with all that extra cash i had?

Well... thats enough testing for tonight... conclusion: disciples and scouts are a pain.  while a starbase will work great... there is the slight issue of getting that massive fleet ot suicide itself on it. disciples and scouts get 50% modifier against very heavy armor (starbases, HCs and buildings)... I still have ideas to try... but man, any early vasari fleet seems to just die... and none of this takes into account capital ships.

Advanced case specific stuff

Maurader

SO... for whatever reason you got yourself a maurader. Good for you.  have fun with it. but there is somethings you should know about it.

1. phaseout. this ablity should NOT be left on autocast... it will drain your antimatter crazy fast (like gauss rail gun fast)... and while it can be used offencively or defencively be carefull... if you use it on your own ship... well you managed to get the enemy to agro something else... nice.... and whatever ship was endanger prolly now needs orders... cause you jsut inturupted whatever it was doing before... so if you phase your own ship that was running away... make sure it still is running away.  have your mauarder on a hotkey so you can do what you need to do fast.

offencively it can be a killer in its own sence... phaseout is the ONLY phase-jump inturupting ablity in the game that recharges faster than the 7 seconds it takes for that enemy to jump away.... but you cant attack it durring that time... why dont you send your fleet to where that capitalship was trying to jump too... phase out one last time... and see what happens. 

Oh... and lv 3 phaseout + phase jump inhibitor = fun. much more fun than ionbolt or reverie...

2. distort gravity... hehe... this is a fun one too. but heres the thing... a group of ships only moves as fast as the slowest ship selected... your maurader + whatever isnt going to go very fast if you also selected a ship outside distort gravity range... (note: if you tell them to attack something they wont wait for the slow guy)... and once distort gravity goes off... the ships DONT have to stay in range of the maurader... so feel free to have them spilt up and keep thier hax speed for the next 30 seconds... another nice thing about this ablity is that you no longer fear phase inhibitors... go have fun with that.

3.subversion. his akkan/egg/progen is going to beat you to colonizing that planet... let him... use subvert... he trys to build that repair bay... its going to take him forever... and just for kicks... dont let him finish... and now he has a nice little bit of resources tied up in a 98% finished repair bay, you meany.

4. Stabalize phase space. have a phase node somehwhere else?... jump to his homeplanet. his fleet will follow you to the very back of his empire. now... jump back to the place you actually want to attack... with his fleet hopefully a considerable number of jumps away. once again... have fun with your maurader... and to help it get to lv 6 or so... keep it on the edge of the grav well... seriously... this is the only capital ship that cant be chased... the issue is getting it out of that battle alive... wether that means distory gravity to run faster than him or using its lv 6.