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trigorin
trigorin
Join Date 03/2008
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About slowdowns in Diplomacy (Trinity)

May 13, 2010 7:24:24 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

It seems to be a real problem that the game (Trinity) hardly can handle a lot of hard AIs in the middle or the late game well. I'm not alone with this problem, there are a lot of posts about similar experiences.

I'm recently playing a long match on a medium sized map (cca. 50 planets) with 5 hard AIs. Now I'm in the medium-late state of the game, but the big fights start to slowdown very significantly. It's not amusing watching and sometimes becomes difficult managing them in this form.

This symptom seems to be completely independent from graphics settings, I get same results whether I play with highest or lowest settings. I think that hard AI routines should get more CPU power, although I have a 3.0 GHz Dual Core CPU.

As I know, this game doesn't support multicore processors regarding the AI routines. However texture loadings are assigned to a different core.

What is the real cause not to improve this part of the software since the release of the original game?

So, here is my standpoint: if it was the only condition to get the mentioned improvement I would pay again 10$ for an "expansion" which adds multicore support to the game because I think it would worth it.

However this game requires a new patch, too. It may have some memory or other kind of resource leak. The more I play the game the bigger slowdown I get. And when I save the game in the middle of a big fight with low FPS, after quitting the game restarting it and reloading the saved game the picture is much more better. Only for a not too long period, of course. This is a typical sign of resource leaks.

trigorin

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trigorin
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Reply #1 May 13, 2010 7:37:47 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

its a shame that they dont developed the game for multicore, but iam pretty sure that isnt easy to convert the total code to multicore.

 

I never have seen a game like sins (f.e. warcraft3 , c&c) where the game dont slow down with so many units. Its just not possible to get it runninng with just one core.

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trigorin
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Reply #2 May 13, 2010 7:49:25 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oh, I found a connecting thread to this topic: https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/301716.

A quotation from it:

"Any additional threading goodness may appear in an expansion pack, as that stuff is not for patches (it would require a good amount of testing to make sure it was working properly)."

So, as I've stated before here I am, I would pay fot it.

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trigorin
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Reply #3 May 13, 2010 8:08:59 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ,
quoting post
However this game requires a new patch, too. It may have some memory or other kind of resource leak. The more I play the game the bigger slowdown I get. And when I save the game in the middle of a big fight with low FPS, after quitting the game restarting it and reloading the saved game the picture is much more better. Only for a not too long period, of course. This is a typical sign of resource leaks.

trigorin

 

It's not only a sign of resource leaks, it's also a sign that your RAM is filling up and then it needs to shuffle and use VRAM a lot more.  In fact it's more likely to be that given that you see the problem again relatively quickly after restarting.

 

Sins needs to be made a 64 bit app really.

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trigorin
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Reply #4 May 13, 2010 8:31:12 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

It's not only a sign of resource leaks, it's also a sign that your RAM is filling up and then it needs to shuffle and use VRAM a lot more.  In fact it's more likely to be that given that you see the problem again relatively quickly after restarting.

 

Sins needs to be made a 64 bit app really.

 

I sometimes check the Task Manager, and the Sins process seems to eat more and more RAM as it progresses. But in most cases it stops at cca. 1.6 GB. Otherwise I have 4 GB RAM.

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trigorin
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Reply #5 May 13, 2010 9:02:17 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I never have seen a game like sins (f.e. warcraft3 , c&c) where the game dont slow down with so many units. Its just not possible to get it runninng with just one core.
That's an illegal comparison.

In warcraft 3 battles are regularly fought with 5-30 units per side and only sometimes a slaughterfest with 50 units per side may occur. SoaSE is in fact designed to feature huge 150+ unit fleets all bangin' at each other and very often more than two at once.

WC3 was designed for relatively small RTS-like maps where players are only up to 60 seconds of walking away from each other. Soase was made for huge 100+ planet maps; that why the intelligent adaptive zoom was added, that's what the empire tree is for and so on.

So, WC3 (and any small-scale RTS game) can easily handle the fights it was meant to handle. Just as well, any "true 4X" game can handle the huge maps and fights they were meant to handle (not hard with a turn-based game).
SoaSE was designed to handle huge fights on huge maps with lots of players and it chokes heavily on medium maps with medium amounts of players and medium fleets about. That is the problem.

In fact, I believe it is the one biggest problem of Sins  - that no normal PC is capable of handling the game where it truly shines, where the player can truly embrace the "4X RTS" awesomeness this game could provide on really big maps with lots of players.

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Reply #6 May 13, 2010 1:10:18 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

[MOD] The Sins Optimization Project 

 

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trigorin
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Reply #7 May 14, 2010 7:46:00 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting myfist0,
reply 6
[MOD] The Sins Optimization Project 
 

Okay, your work is very appreciated. However I don't think it could be a solution for the game issues mentioned in the first post. Please don't misunderstand me but I think your real goal can only be lowering the amount of memory required the game preventing the crashes when it exceeds the 2GB limit.

As we saw by Empire Total War, the multi-core support can cause a very big step forward in game performance. And I have to mention that the developers of that game released a free patch providing this improvement.

Now, I repeat my gesture to the developers: I would pay for an expansion fo SoaSE Trinity to get the multi-core support. I hope I'm not alone with this.

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trigorin
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Reply #8 May 14, 2010 8:56:07 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Like everybody, i will be happy to have a sins who is 64 bits and support multicore/multiprocessor ( i have two quad core xeon with 16 gb ram )... but we need to be realistic... in fact, a recompilation for multicore/64 bits can be very fast but since the original code was not optimised for these case, result will be very low, at best some loop using a other core, maybe a few % of speed...

The alternative is to rewrite all the engine code for 64 bits and multicore... task is somehow similar to create a new game... the amount of work is not for a patch or expension, more for a full game sequel like a sins 2, and at full price...

Now, the two last year, dev have make a huge work... not only correct some bug but create patch who tune the game in a way to please gamer or expension who add option wished by the communauty... more, they have listen to modders and give them what they wish when it was possible... it is already a huge amount of work for a very little money income... price of the expension are ridiculous low when compare to a lot of other game... price of DLC are similar to price of sins expension but you receive more that a new armor ( or in sins, more that a new ship )...

Now, about the "sins optimisation project", i will not discard it so fast... ok, they work mainly on reducing the memory use... mean that the amount of data is more little... mean that processor and graphic card will process smaller data in a faster way... mean that some processor resource are now free and can be used by the other task of the game...

About Empire total war ( or napoleon ), we cannot compare to sins... each version is a full priced game... and actual speed is no only due to multicore but to feature who was remove from previous version of the game... if you are a fan, you certainly remember that before, when you attack a city, each city was different, with a bunch of various building, fortification, street layout, etc... now you have only the square/diamond fort... in fact, it is only fun to attack a place without fortification where you have some various layout and the tactical use of various building is very good... this without speak of research tree we become more reduced with each version... what about the fact that Total war are not real time game, only the battle are real time, and it never happen that battle happen in the same time, they happen one after the other... more, if you have a bunch of armies, they can be used only if unit of the first one flee or are destroy...

So, if Stardock make a sins version with only 2 planet type, with only one single simple research tree, a turn based game on the level of map, battle in sequencial mode and not in the same time, you will be happy since it is fast... if it is what you wish, better take a look at a other title from Stardock called gallactic civilisation or maybe to Armada 2526 .. guys who have work on these title have work on the Total war serie, it run like a total war thing but it is not comparable to sins...

Finally, remember that sins is a old game... the recent Trinity is nothing more that some other distributor will call a gold or platinium edition... everything who was made for a game in a single package at very low price...

Final comment : better start a topic about what you wish in a possible Sins II that bitching on original Sins... be patient too, a sins II can ask maybe 2-3 year of work ( one year dev time for the original sins is not the norm )...

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trigorin
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Reply #9 May 14, 2010 9:49:36 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

@Thomusin: You're right, the support of this game is excellent. I really like SoaSE Trinity.

Bu I see a problem: people hardly can exploit the promised abilities of the game (playing larger galaxies with more than 4 opponents getting an epic scenario) because of limititaion of the engine itself.

And I'm not an ETW fan, and I don't want to compare it to NTW because I don't know latter one. But there was a free patch making ETW able to use multiple cores and since this upgrade battles have been much more smoother with a huge amount of units and highest settings, too. However playing with four AIs and maxed armies can become sluggish there, too.

I'm not uncontent with SoaSE, but I feel I must avoid to start a match with large galaxy because of expecting lags and slowdowns and it becomes boring a bit playing always on small-medium sized maps.

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Reply #10 May 14, 2010 11:56:38 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting trigorin,
reply 9
Bu I see a problem: people hardly can exploit the promised abilities of the game (playing larger galaxies with more than 4 opponents getting an epic scenario) because of limititaion of the engine itself.

In fact, the "promised abilities" are linked to what i call the "system requirements" of the game... a computer with the recommended setting will have no problem with the original sins... but since, we have numerous patch and expansion... always using the same recommended setting... problem is that they have not "update" these recommended setting... same problem with the pdf file from the mod tools, never updated and now some info are WRONG...

I'm not uncontent with SoaSE, but I feel I must avoid to start a match with large galaxy because of expecting lags and slowdowns and it becomes boring a bit playing always on small-medium sized maps.

There is way to use multiple core/processor, and go over these 2gb limit... the more that the game have use in my case is 8 cores and 11 gb ram... a lot of the problems are not only related to the game/engine itself but to the underlaying layer who is called OS... these limit are related to 32 windows OS... more specific, to cheap version of windows... these who are the more used... a windows 2000 32 bit server edition is able to access 32GB ram but a windows 7 starter edition only 2gb ram...

Now, for multicore, i have simply add a software layer between the bios and the OS... the little software have a price tag of several thousand euro, run only on server ( i have a server board ) who accept hardware virtual machine... OS choice is Unix/Linux ( a hell of compilation, configuration, tuning and no impulse update) because some bios option are not working with Windows OS...

Point is that all the fault are not on the shoulder of Stardock... they have create a game who was for the more used OS when the project have started... it was windows XP home

And it is why i say that we need to wait a Sins II... not only we will have multicore and 64 bits but some other radical changes too... like a newer, better, faster directx version... like a more recent shader support like the shader 4.0 with unified  shader model found with directx 10 will allow a lot of 3d calculation to be made by the graphic card in place of the processor...

I was there during the beta of the original sins... dev was like now, listening to people... but ram or multicore was not a issue them... problem is that patch and expansion have add a lot material who have push the engine to his limit... by the way, i am pretty sure that it is the reason why the 3th planned expension was canceled, it will have kill the engine...

Best it to use our energy to ask for a sins sequel, a sins II with feature we wish that making a lot of topic about the problem of the actual sins... take a 2PK Citroen car... you can tune it a lot but soon of later, you will reach some limit... in so case, better buy a new car that try to put a Ferrari motor in our old 2PK ( the frame will never support the stress of the high power motor )...

EDIT : The sins game who have reach 11gb ram was on a huge multistar map, with 10 player from 10 different races + pirates, using the biggest mod who was existing at the time... game have take several day for finish... only some slow down when i was with more that 10000 ship in the same gravity wheel ... so, for me, sins have go way over the "promised abilities"...

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trigorin
-Ue_Carbon
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Reply #11 May 14, 2010 1:38:38 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Bu I see a problem: people hardly can exploit the promised abilities of the game (playing larger galaxies with more than 4 opponents getting an epic scenario) because of limititaion of the engine itself.

 

I honestly can beg to differ. I can run epic games just fine. My specs for the computer are not that great either. Just a 2.5 Duo Core. I also play with the Distant Stars Mod which adds even more to the game. And usually when I play by myself I have tweaked it for 3x the fleet points of standard SINS.

The only time I currently experience lag or slow down is when you have 2-3 massive fleets fighting in a grav well.

For reference:

 

I know its hard to read the numbers but the LRF number is something I want to point out. 463. This was MP, and it only gets laggy playing a mod that adds even more system requirements to the game, when someone for shits and giggles built 600 LRF b/c they could.

 

Also let me suggest if you not trim your empire tree, you need to do that. There was a time when I lagged on smaller maps and such, much like your doing. My FPS would drop to 5 or so if I tried to watch a big battle, usually was around 12 though. After tweaking some settings I found that trimming your empire tree to the bare bones required by you to play will give the biggest boost in FPS. Turning of Trade ship Icons is also a must. Highlighting Ship Meshes might save a bit also, but Im still not sure it helps a whole lot.

 

Anyhow, there are countless people who have pushed the engine to its highest points, and get a great game out of it. Others have trouble. I think the latter is b/c of user settings. Like auto-pinning every little thing, etc etc. So while more multicore support would be great, its not something required to enjoy this game as it is. And to be honest, this idea of adding in the more multicore support has been talked about and talked about for years. Nothing come of it. Im sure if there is a SINS 2 it will have it. Till then we can focus on tweaking settings and such to make everyone game more enjoyable.

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trigorin
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Reply #12 May 17, 2010 5:23:38 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

@-Ue_Carbon: I've read a lot of suggestions in topic of improving game performance about trimming empire tree, disabling cargo icons etc. I suspect these tricks doesn't already matter. It must have been related to a DirectX problem (or DirectX - Sins conflict) like slowdowns because of texts on screen. It has been resolved by the latest patch for Trinity which contained a newer version of DirectX.

And my other problem regarding your game play example is that you talked about a MP match, although my bad experiences come from single player scenarios with more than 4 hard AI players which require much more CPU power, I guess.

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Reply #13 May 17, 2010 12:44:25 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Have you done such suggestions? Or have you dismissed them?

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trigorin
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Reply #14 May 18, 2010 5:26:39 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting -Ue_Carbon,
reply 13
Have you done such suggestions? Or have you dismissed them?

Yes, I have done them all in spite of beeing sceptical. Turning off user interface elements couldn't help me.

I was one of the unlucky players who got the issue when the more texts appeared on screen the more dropped down the frame rate. I had a long conversation with support about it, and we realized that including the new DirectX into the latest patch could resolve it.

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