Testing changes made to Capital Ships » Forum Post by Seleuceia

I had a fleeting idea. Its just an idea so if its silly just forget about it ;] But, the radiance doesn't seem like a particular tanking ship. What if the idea of animosity itself was to be tweaked abit. Rather then drawing the enemy fire of an entire fleet, and forcing it into invulnerability as it does so (so it can contend to the late game) what if rather it forced all targets in range to randomly reselect different targets? So instead of it forcing focus fire and tanking, what if it dealt with enemy fire by -preventing- any sort of focus fire. Plus this ability would compliment the Iconus' gaurdians shield projection no? Perhaps maybe all of your units targeted because of the ability could get a slight shield mitigation boost? so that its effective on other units but to overboard, as other units don't already have capital ships' shield mitigation. Just an idea...

EDIT: PS this mod as a whole is an awesome idea =]

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what if rather it forced all targets in range to randomly reselect different targets?

Not sure if that's possible from a modding perspective, since the randomly selected target would have to be the same each pulse (otherwise the units would change targets every couple of milliseconds, and never actually get to shoot anything). It certainly would break up focus fire, and synergize well with the guardian, but I don't think it's feasible.

I had a fleeting idea. Its just an idea so if its silly just forget about it

Don't be afraid to speak your mind, 3psil0n. Even silly ideas can sometimes lead interesting places.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

To prevent confusion and aid anyone who is messing around with animosity themselves, I'm going to explain how the ability works and what I did to change it...if you don't know how the whole files/programming/modding thing works I hope this will help...just because you don't know how to mod doesn't mean you don't have good insight or good ideas!

Every ability has an Ability file...this file will have the name AbilityAbility'sName.entity...so for example, for animosity the name of this file is AbilityTaunt.entity...

Within this file, one Buff file type can be called (that is to say, a line of code refers to this file)...now, many abilities require several different buffs, so usually the ability calls a buff file which then calls all the other buffs...

In the case of Animosity, AbilityTaunt.entity calls BuffTauntSelf.entity and applies this buff to the Radiance itself...it is in this particular buff file that bonuses affecting the radiance (like hull regen or damage reduction) can be coded...

In the current version of the game, BuffTauntSelf applies the buff BuffTaunt to all enemy ships within a given range of the Radiance...BuffTaunt.entity is the actual file that causes the "Force Attacking" on enemy ships...now, the original game applies BuffTaunt with an instant action...this means the ability is applied once as soon as the ability is activated...the original ability has a max number of targets and can only affect enemy frigates, capital ships, modules (like a gauss defense platform), and starbases...

There were several problems with this model, and I've tried to address all of them...

First, the ability did not affect ships that entered the area of effect after the ability was cast...to fix this, BuffTaunt is now applied as a periodic action (it now occurs every 4s) so that ships will still be effected even if they enter the Radiance's "sphere of influence" after the ability was initially cast...

Second, human players reported that they could simply give a new attack order to their ships after the ability was cast, and their ships would follow it...to fix this, a new buff file BuffTauntFriendly.entity was created...this buff is applied in a similar fashion to BuffTaunt except that it affects friendly, not enemy ships...this new buff uses the same mechanic that illuminators use when they cast the ability Deceptive Illusion...the name of this mechanic is ForceAttackersToRepickTarget...

When this buff is used on a friendly ship, all enemy ships attacking it will be forced to re-pick a target...you can set the percent of likelihood that friendly ship will not be re-targeted...I set this percentage to 100%, which means that any friendly ship in range of the Radiance will force its attackers to pick something else to shoot at...the point of this new buff is to prevent enemy ships from shooting at something other than the Radiance...

If your ships are affected by animosity and you do nothing, they will turn towards the Radiance and start shooting at it...if you instead click on a different target, your ships will momentarily pause but will proceed to attack the Radiance...if you continually click on a target other than the Radiance, your ships won't turn towards the Radiance but they won't shoot at anything either...

There were concerns that a human could click so fast that the ability wouldn't override user actions...but this turns out to not be an issue...what matters is weapon cooldown, and since weapon cooldowns are longer than 4s the current buffs will prevent a user from overriding animosity and shooting at another ship...statistically speaking it may be possible that some shots will still hit the user-selected target, but this amount will be negligible...if a human player wants to waste 20s clicking on the same thing so negligible damage is done to it, I'd say Animosity did it's job...

If the frequency of the buffs becomes much faster than 3 or so seconds, the constant reapplication of the buff will actually "lock up" the ship and prevent it from doing anything...so making buffs faster than a few seconds usually isn't going to do any good....

I would like to point out that the ForceAttackersToRepickTarget will not apply to the Radiance itself (after all that would sort of defeat the purpose)...

Third, there was a concern that a Radiance could move away from an enemy fleet, yet the enemy would still be trying to shoot at it...both BuffTaunt and BuffTauntFriendly have a duration of 5s...since they are reapplied every 4s, ships that leave the "Sphere of Influence" of the Radiance will stop being affected by either buff...

Fourth, there is a concern that multiple Radiances will be able to force attack an enemy fleet indefinitely...since the new buffs now affect SC and have no max number of targets, this is a legitimate concern...to help solve this, Animosity is now interruptable and a channeling ability...what does this mean? Animosity can be stopped by an interrupt like ion bolt, magnetize, phase out hull, disruptive strikes, or detonate antimatter...since it's a channeling ability, the Radiance cannot move or be given any other orders while Animosity is used...if you do give the Radiance new orders while Animosity is being used, it will immediately cancel the ability...this is the same mechanic on both domina subjugator abilities, repulsion, and shield regeneration (there are others as well)...

The affect of making this a channeling ability is that the Radiance cannot move through an entire enemy fleet, forcing all the ships to turn away from their current target (and then repeat with a 2nd radiance, and a 3rd)...if the radiance is sieging a planet, it will have to stop in order to use this ability...if multiple radiances are together, ships can move outside the range of animosity and resume attacking whatever since the radiance cannot move while using this ability...

Please note that animosity in no way prevents you from giving affected ships move orders or from using abilities...it only affects the ships if they sit there and do nothing or if they are ordered to attack (which includes auto-attack)...

The ability isn't perfect but all of these changes hopefully have made it a lot better and at least do what it is supposed to do...

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Not sure if that's possible from a modding perspective, since the randomly selected target would have to be the same each pulse (otherwise the units would change targets every couple of milliseconds, and never actually get to shoot anything). It certainly would break up focus fire, and synergize well with the guardian, but I don't think it's feasible.

This is essentially already implemented...see above post (posted two posts too late )...ForceAttackersToRepickTargets seems to do this nicely...any ship other than the radiance itself will cause its attackers to repick targets, and there is a 100% chance they won't pick the same target....if the player doesn't let his ships shoot the radiance, then they will shoot at nothing...

I had a fleeting idea. Its just an idea so if its silly just forget about it ;]

As Darvin said, don't hesitate to give out new ideas...this thread is meant to encourage creativity....

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and there is a 100% chance they won't pick the same target...

... Uh, I said that it'd have to pick the same target every time. The problem is that if it gets a different target every couple milliseconds, it's just wobbling around rather than shooting because every time it starts to turn to face a different target, it gets a new attack order.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

My apologies...forgot to include this change in the recent update...

V0.311

Capital Ship Changes

-Radiance

--Animosity
---Frequency of BuffTauntFriendly increased from once every 4s to once very 2s

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

... Uh, I said that it'd have to pick the same target every time. The problem is that if it gets a different target every couple milliseconds, it's just wobbling around rather than shooting because every time it starts to turn to face a different target, it gets a new attack order.

I understand the difference...and in theory there is one....but in practice the mechanic seems to work...

The most recent update (v0.311) seems to work...the only way you get ships to shoot something other than the Radiance is if they are moving in the direction of a different target...Capital ships are also an exception since they have multiple banks of weapons (I'd imagine starbases as well)...you might find a way to get SC to shoot something else but it would require some pretty special micro I'd imagine...

I'd appreciate confirmation on this, but the Animosity seems to work as intended...

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Making it a channeling ability will help dramatically I'm sure... Fine tuning to perfection will come with further testing. I'm gonna try this against my friend in a MP game tomorrow, see how it works I will see if i can stage a 3 kol vs. 3 Radiance and/or a 3 Radiance vs. 3 Kortul to see how it Animosity stands up. It would be a shame if its regeneration ability overpowered power surge's, well i assume so anyways.

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Pbhead

Join Date 12/2008

+77

channeling and interupt... intresting.

something i was definately thinking about... at least one now has ways to combat this ability. will have to play around with it.

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It seems important that there be methods to combat an ability, yes. Otherwise it would seem reasonable to 'complain.'

What Animosity needed was to work within its 1.19 parameters, and to help the Radiance to tank the resultant damage. At the third level, the Radiance should be near to indestructible, though it would lose it shields against a heavy attack, leaving it vulnerable subsequently- especially to strikecraft which would be unaffected by the ability.

What is the difference between what you have done and TEC Adaptive Invulnerable Fleets (interruptible) which makes an entire fleet invulnerable to damage for 20s at level 1? How about Vasari Repair Storm (interruptible) which likewise makes the entire fleet invulnerable to any kind of damage for 20s at level 1? Wasn't this supposed to be a balance mod?

Animosity should not affect strikecraft, and needs its target cap and limited range. To use it has to involve skill. It especially should not buff the friendly fleet to make them invulnerable.

The lead modder for this project should not be making errors of this magnitude. I would like to recommend the mod but noone likes to be taunted. Also, there are more valuable contributions I can make than to be placed in the position of having to pour cold water on the idea of invulnerable Radiances. I considered that beginning with the capital ships was the wrong approach when this was started and I've become more convinced, even if there are some improvements and not all the changes are as wrong as Animosity. The Dunov was tested, the ship worked, it does not need a L1 improvement of 50 shields for 5s.

Meanwhile, we have got nowhere with other stuff that needs work- like pirates, technologies, the relationship victory, the list is long. It needs more than one modder.

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Pbhead

Join Date 12/2008

+77

If i read the change log correctly, the donov shield restore was reduced back down to 250/500/750... +the 50/second... which adds up to the 500/750/1000 it was before.

This, in some ways, is a nerf, as if you had 2 donovs, and they cast at the same time at the same target, you would only get a single +50/second.

I feel that the way shield restore is now is fine.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

What is the difference between what you have done and TEC Adaptive Invulnerable Fleets (interruptible) which makes an entire fleet invulnerable to damage for 20s at level 1? How about Vasari Repair Storm (interruptible) which likewise makes the entire fleet invulnerable to any kind of damage for 20s at level 1?

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about...Armistice and Repair Cloud??? Those abilities are nothing like Animosity and are certainly not overpowered...

Wasn't this supposed to be a balance mod?

Yes it is...the purpose of this mod is to balance the game by making as few conceptual changes as possible...only 2 abilities have really been changed at the conceptual level and re-purposed (Jarrasul's colonize and clairvoyance) and animosity will be the third if it has a tanking buff...

What Animosity needed was to work within its 1.19 parameters, and to help the Radiance to tank the resultant damage.

How can you suggest working within the 1.19 parameters yet also advocate making this a tanking ability? The Devs never intended Animosity to be a tanking ability...the original ability doesn't even have any tanking qualities...

I have put a lot of time into making this ability actually work as intended so that it will require as little deviance from the original ability as possible at the conceptual level...the ability finally successfully draws away enemy fire which in itself is a major improvement over the original ability...drawing away enemy fire is the point of the ability, not tanking...since so many people have suggested adding a secondary buff, I am trying to incorporate one...a "tanking" ability seems to be our best bet, but the tanking effect cannot be as powerful as other tanking abilities...

Animosity should not affect strikecraft, and needs its target cap and limited range.

The range is 3000/4000/5000, the exact same values of the current game...

The purpose of animosity is to draw fire from your other ships...bombers are the single most powerful threat to capital ships...omitting them from the effects of Animosity renders this ability pointless in the mid and late game...

A target cap (especially if it affects SC) is also pointless...this ship can't move while it uses the ability and the maximum range is only 5000m...even the illuminator has a range greater than that, and good luck trying to affect all the enemies LRMs if they're TEC...even with infinite targets one radiance will have a very difficult time affecting even most of an enemies fleet...if you add a target cap this ability will be worthless just like it is in the current game...

To use it has to involve skill.

It does involve skill...the limited range and the fact that the radiance is stationary while it uses the ability very much requires skill and puts heavy limitations on this ability...

It especially should not buff the friendly fleet to make them invulnerable.

It doesn't make the friendly fleet invulnerable...I don't know where you got this from...if you are referring to the ForceAttackersToRepickTarget, that command is what makes this ability actually work...it does not make any ships invulnerable, and the range on that is under the same limitations as the other buff of animosity...

The Dunov was tested, the ship worked, it does not need a L1 improvement of 50 shields for 5s.

Previous versions of this mod increased the shields restored from 250/500/750 to 500/750/1000...these are the numbers that were tested and found acceptable...the most recent version of the mod restores 250/500/750 shields instantly and then 50/s...the total values remain unchanged...the purpose of the the 50/s is to make this ability just as good at helping capital ships but more useful at helping frigates under fire....it was a good suggestion made by someone else with good reasoning behind it....

Meanwhile, we have got nowhere with other stuff that needs work- like pirates, technologies, the relationship victory, the list is long. It needs more than one modder.

This thread is 7 pages long...the initial thread is currently at least half that length...that is 10 pages at least about just this one topic...I've spent a lot of time on this forum, making changes, fixing errors, ensuring the ability was at least implemented right, testing it in SP, and a few MP games as well...

Its not that these other areas aren't important...it's that the whole process takes time...

There is no rule or law or divine intervention preventing you or anyone from making a mod...there is nothing preventing you or anyone from starting a new thread to address these issues...if this pace isn't fast enough for you then start your own thread and own mod...

The lead modder for this project should not be making errors of this magnitude.

I get it...no really, I do...you don't think I'm qualified, you don't like the changes, and you don't think I should be having any say in this mod...sorry I am not DT Seleuceia...

How long have people complained about the last patch? How long have people complained in general about the game being unbalanced? "Pirates are OP!!!" "Indifference engine sucks!!!" "Repulsion is ridiculous!!" "Not another Vasari whore with scramble bombers!!!!" etc etc

I'm trying to do something to fix this situation...I'm sorry you don't like what I'm doing...no one will force you to play this mod and no one will prevent you from making and playing with whatever changes you see fit...

Anyone can put their suggestions here...anyone can download the files I have made...anyone could take those files and change them as they see fit. Guess what? Anyone could do this if they wanted to, including you....

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

This, in some ways, is a nerf, as if you had 2 donovs, and they cast at the same time at the same target, you would only get a single +50/second.

Ooo...good catch...didn't think about this...do you think stacking should be allowed with this ability??

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Ooo...good catch...didn't think about this...do you think stacking should be allowed with this ability?

I think you should revert the shield back to what you had it before and then add another buff that gives this shield regen to an AOE around the Shield Restore target. Like 20 Shield per second for 5 seconds in an area of 1500 around the target.

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This was one of my discarded ideas...

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The Dunov change is just somewhat superfluous rather than as bad as Animosity, though I can't agree with the principle either- what we want is for focus fire to be directed away from capitals, not to have to focus on capitals to get any result from your fire, so improving the ability to work on frigates is wrong.

The TEC and Vasari abilities are examples of possible abilities that would be entirely overpowered, especially at level 1. I hope that you would agree.

So.. LRF outside the range of Animosity- which I'm happy to have restored to the original level- will be able to target ships friendly to the Radiance that are inside the range of Animosity? The ships near the Radiance will be invulnerable to strikecraft?

Why have you made the Radiance invulnerable at all? Also, Advent quite simply do not need a further area of effect weapon against strikecraft. The one they have is quite sufficient.

What is the level progression on this then? Range 3000/4000/5000 and an improvement on the health gained, which is somewhat irrelevant as you have made the Radiance invulnerable at level 1?

The question is rather, has anyone else got any say in this mod at all? Look at your long list of changes, try to identify whose suggestions they are. You don't propose and discuss changes then make them, you make them first. If it is just your mod, fine.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

The Dunov change is just somewhat superfluous rather than as bad as Animosity, though I can't agree with the principle either- what we want is for focus fire to be directed away from capitals, not to have to focus on capitals to get any result from your fire, so improving the ability to work on frigates is wrong.

The ability is improved for capital ships as well and the dunov can use it on itself...I'd say that's a fairly decent buff...

So.. LRF outside the range of Animosity- which I'm happy to have restored to the original level- will be able to target ships friendly to the Radiance that are inside the range of Animosity? The ships near the Radiance will be invulnerable to strikecraft?

I'm not certain I understand what you are getting at but I think I do...someone (I think Pbhead?) brought up the point that the buff BuffTauntFriendly that uses ForceAttackersToRepickTarget may cause an enemy ship outside the affect of animosity to still be unable to shoot a ship within the sphere of influence of animosity...in theory this is correct, but in practice I'm not sure yet...if it's a problem I'll work on fixing it (likely will involve lowering the range of just this buff)...depending on the strength of the secondary buff of this ability, it really may not be an issue (simply part of the advantage in using this ability)...another thing I'm considering is raising the antimatter cost of animosity...right now the ship pretty much never runs out of antimatter...even if this ability is OP, if you can only use it 3 times before you run out of antimatter then suddenly may no longer be OP...

Why have you made the Radiance invulnerable at all?

Lets pretend that there is a "magic number" for hull regen...let's just say 3...so, if you set the hull regen on damage taken to 3, everytime the radiance is shot it will take no damage...therefore, raising this value from 3 to 3.5/4/4.5 would give you an idea of what a net repair of .5/1/1.5 would do...now, since we don't know the magic number, I decided to make the ship essentially invulnerable...this is in essense like having a hull regen of x+.5/x+1/x+1.5 where x would be the "magic number"...I am hoping that this current version will help us determine what values of net hull repair are good so that once the "magic number" is found, implementing the desired effects will be real easy...

Unfortunately, no one seems to be posting anything about those numbers...in fact, all people are posting is "that ability sucks"...well, maybe it does but we are never going to get good numbers if we don't at least test some...the numbers are reasonable, one radiance can be killed, it is possible...it's just hard (right now too hard at level 3) but we need something to test...I picked the numbers for testing purposes with the hope I might get some feedback or *gasp* someone might try their own numbers and post some results...

What is the level progression on this then? Range 3000/4000/5000 and an improvement on the health gained, which is somewhat irrelevant as you have made the Radiance invulnerable at level 1?

Not irrelevant at all...the hull regen heals the hull...this means the Radiance is harder to kill during those 40s it isn't using animosity because it just got a nice hull regen...making this value to high means that early game fleets won't be able to do enough damage in those 40s...make the hull regen too low and late game the ship will die very quickly like any cap without a tanking ability...

Current progressions for this ability are range and hull regen...if the secondary buff is changed, whatever replaces it will also progress...

The question is rather, has anyone else got any say in this mod at all? Look at your long list of changes, try to identify whose suggestions they are.

If I make any mistakes with this list, my apologies but I'm doing it all from memory (really don't feel like reading all 10 pages)..

Scramble Bombers - All numbers here were calculated by Darvin (and work beautifully by the way)

Heavy SC - Buff was made by me, no objections that I can remember, and some posts supporting it

Missile batteries - Buff made by me as well...goal with both Sova abilities was to make it more competitive with the other two carriers in the late game...I think Mr. G was upset that the Sova was buffed, but that was more because he thought other ships were higher priorities and Mr. G doesn't like me...only objection I can remember...

Jarrasul Colonize - Spawning extra constructors was entirely Darvin's idea

Finest Hour - change to antimatter regen was suggested by HerrPinguin...the increased hull regen that compensates for this might have been his idea also, not sure...

GRG - Antimatter cost I believe was Darvin's suggestion...values are very close to HerrPinguin's numbers...weapon cooldown IIRC was Darvin's idea...we never settled on a specific number but he did make a good argument that 20% was too low (value is currently 33%)

Flak Burst - These numbers were vetted by several different people...I know that Darvin and HerrPinguin had a lot of input on this...cooldown times might even be HerrPinguin's numbers...

Adaptive forcefield - Don't know who said it first but making this ability passive was on a lot of people's minds..

Animosity - Hull regen IIRC was DesConnor's idea...a lot of people contributed to tweaking the mechanics of this...HerrPinguin was the first to come up with the idea of making it Interruptable/Channeling (I think it got overlooked then though)...using the ForceAttackersToRepickTarget mechanic was my idea...

Cleansing Brilliance - HerrPinguiin gave the suggestion of getting rid of one of the finish conditions that end the ability when it destroys its target...the change in DPS and duration was my idea

Magnetize - current max number of SC that can be destroyed are HerrPinguin's numbers...I believe it was also him that gave the idea of using the max number of SC destroyed as a finish condition so infinite targets could be affected...antimatter cost change was made by me but it may need to be changed to a constant number...

Shield Restore - The current shield regenerate over time mechanic I think was syneptus's idea but I can't remember for certain...I have no idea who said allow this ability to be used on the ship itself first, but I know a lot of people wanted that change...

EMP -cooldown times are Darvin's numbers...antimatter cost was my change...range increase was also my change

Vertigo - Antimatter cost was based off of Darvin's suggestion...the exact number chosen for the range buff was mine but I think the concept was suggested by someone else

Vengeance - Antimatter cost based off of Darvin's suggestion...I can't remember who came up with the cooldown and duration changes, it might have been me...

Distort Gravity - the antimatter cost and cooldown were Darvin's numbers...the range increase number is mine but I know that other's (probably Darvin) advocated a range increase in the first place...

Subversion - Antimatter cost is Darvin's number...the duration and the increase to the buff are my numbers...making the ability not stack and no longer requiring the user to target the planet were my changes...

Assault Specialization - All Darvin's numbers

PM Swarm - Max # of targets was Darvin's number...I vouched for the increased range (so it could hit LRFs)...antimatter cost was my call

Clairvoyance - concept of reducing bombing cooldown was Darvin's idea from a while back...

Guidance - Making it passive was my idea, though this may change and the best contender I think is Darvin's idea of antimatter regen...

Missile barrage - Range decrease was my idea

Incendiary Shells - fix that prevents ability from canceling itself was done by me...armor decrease was, well, I don't remember who came up with that, though I think I was the one to pick the numbers...

You don't propose and discuss changes then make them, you make them first.

Not always the case...in fact not usually the case until recently...the problem is there aren't enough results on animosity being reported so everytime I change the ability and test it I simply update it so at least if someone joins in on the testing they'll be using the same files I am...some small changes (mainly a few ranges and antimatter costs) were my call...but you know there is this thing called a change log and people can read it and say "whoa, Seleuceia, that range buff on vertigo is not cool" and in this way concerns can be addressed and re-evaluations done...

The problem is that when the discussion never gets beyond anything other than "animosity sucks" it is rather difficult to get a decent discussion on minor changes...

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Pbhead

Join Date 12/2008

+77

The Dunov is fine as is right now... dont mess with it unless we start seeing that donovs are the new skirantras... I kinda like the fact that 1+1 does not quite equal 2.

the advent have 2 anti-stirke craft weapons... there is the obvious halycon telekenitic bitch slap, but there is also the rapture's vengence. (this is not from the mod, this is in straight sins)

which reminds me... hehe... vengence would stack a little to nicely with animocity...

mk... let me try this...

take off the channeling...

take off the hull regen...

and give it 30/40/50% damage reduction for the cooldown period. (you cant do accuracey or cooldown, or youll get REDICULOUS stacking with vertigo... and... i have no idea how the game would act if accuracy went down to negitive numbers... (lv3 vertigo+roidbelt+flack is down to 30% accuracy... if you reduced accuracy by 50%... ya.)

feel free to bring the cooldown down, or raise the duration, or whatever.

and, give it a target cap of 25/35/50 (not based on a "scaling as fleet sizes go up"... but on a "how much the radiance can take without killing itself"... (although honestly id get a little scared if 50 heavies suddenly turned on my radiance... )

50 ships is enough... at a minimum (assuming your not fighting scouts) 200 fleet supply of ships having thier damage significantly reduced, and focused on stuff they dont really want to be firing at.

And it makes sence too... its like... You, you, and you are now firing at me, because i overpowered you minds and said so... and since I know you guys are firing at me, i can work some engineering/shield/techie magic,and reduce the effectiveness of your weapons.

That said... I suggust rasing adaptive force shield to levels (you know... every time i did math on the tankability of the kol, i never accounted for the sins stacking method) where damage is actually reduced by 15%,25%,35%... which should be 18/33/52% ... maybe turn it back to a triggerable ability and unnerf finest hour maybe?

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Since this will be easiest to address...

That said... I suggust rasing adaptive force shield to levels (you know... every time i did math on the tankability of the kol, i never accounted for the sins stacking method) where damage is actually reduced by 15%,25%,35%... which should be 18/33/52% ... maybe turn it back to a triggerable ability and unnerf finest hour maybe?

I thought about this too...you are very correct that the damage reduction increases less and less per level, but PM block is increasing more and more per level (it is kind of like shield mitigation in that the distance away from 100% is what matters) so I think it might balance out...

As for making it a triggerable ability...I'm not sure which way to go yet...I really like the passive ability and the antimatter being balanced between GRG and flak burst...making all 3 abilities active will require more antimatter cost balancing and I'm not sure if that's the way to go...certainly, if it is made an active ability then Finest Hour will be restored to its original stats...keep in mind that currently finest hour had a buff to hull regen, so it wasn't nerfed completely...

Now for the troublemaker...

mk... let me try this...

take off the channeling...

take off the hull regen...

and give it 30/40/50% damage reduction for the cooldown period. (you cant do accuracey or cooldown, or youll get REDICULOUS stacking with vertigo... and... i have no idea how the game would act if accuracy went down to negitive numbers... (lv3 vertigo+roidbelt+flack is down to 30% accuracy... if you reduced accuracy by 50%... ya.)

Honestly, taking off any secondary buff right now is very tempting since it is being an absolute pain in the butt...

You make a very good point about the accuracy and cooldown stacking...so I'm convinced that would be a bad idea...

and, give it a target cap of 25/35/50 (not based on a "scaling as fleet sizes go up"... but on a "how much the radiance can take without killing itself"... (although honestly id get a little scared if 50 heavies suddenly turned on my radiance... )

This is the part I have a problem with...there are two reasons I'm against a target cap...one, it is affecting SC so a target cap would be impossible to balance...two, the range and other things are rather limiting on this ability...I think people are seriously overestimating the power of this ability...microing with the Radiance and using this ability is going to be very difficult...I'm going to be posting an update later that makes some changes to Animosity, and with it I'll give a good explanation on this ability's current limitations...

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I think if you reduce amounts by percentages and not by percentage points, then amounts will never go negative; a 50% reduction of accuracy (or whatever) after a 70% decrease from a previous debuff would not equal -20% of the original value. Say accuracy is 100% normally and you take 70% accuracy off from the first debuff (asteroids and whatnot) so you're down to 30%. Half (50%) of that new accuracy value would be 15% of the original. Half of that would be 7.5% and so on.

However, a 50 percentage point drop from something that is already at 35%, then you're in negative percent territory. Don't do that.

I tried out the animosity/vengeance (level 1 for both) micro-combo in SP against an Unfair Vasari with 1 L4 desolator, 9 skirmishers and 7 assailants and my L4 Radiance had seventeen HP when the vulkoras was destroyed (I also had an unupgraded starbase, 1 repair platform, and my Rapture was L3, and was largely untouched while the 10 disciples did get destroyed).

While I personally favor a target cap (possibly ignoring strikecraft, they're just so fast), I felt I had to share that. I am, however, just one single-player.

Side note: On a previous game, I did like how the Revelation performed. Guidance is good as passive and I used the bombing buff to quickly dispatch a few planets. I also like the passivity of Adaptive Force Field on the Kol, but I'm not married to it. I think I just like the idea of most caps having 1 ok passive ability, if not 3 really good ones (not counting their L6, which should be pretty awesome).

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Keep playing with the different versions.... that is the easiest way to find what will work!

Once that balance is found, you all will know it

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Pbhead

Join Date 12/2008

+77

ah, right... strike craft... forgot about those... and your absolutly right about the target cap being impossible with strike craft in play...

easy answer, of course is remove strike craft from being effective...

second, harder answer, is give a completely different effect to strike craft... (eg... one effect that does the 50 ship limit, that only effects ships, and another, identical ability that only effects strike craft and has unlimited cap...

of course, we have issues when wondering about if strike craft effects are really nessasary. Personally, i like the easy answer a bit better.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

second, harder answer, is give a completely different effect to strike craft... (eg... one effect that does the 50 ship limit, that only effects ships, and another, identical ability that only effects strike craft and has unlimited cap...

Could be implemented and if a target limit is used (yet SC are affected) this suggestion would definitely be the best way to go...

Before I go any further on animosity, I want to make sure everyone really understands the limitations on this ship...

Imagine this scenario...

You engage an enemy fleet with your Radiance, and you use Animosity...now, there will be two groups of ships: 1) those within range of Animosity and 2) those out of range of Animosity...there are also two buffs: 1) BuffTaunt and 2) BuffTauntFriendly...BuffTaunt affects enemy ships while BuffTauntFriendly affects friendly ships...

For each of the enemy ships, you can combine the two pairs of possibilities and see that there are four situations...

1) An enemy ship in range of animosity is trying to shoot one of your ships also in range of animosity...therefore, the enemy ship is under the affect of BuffTaunt and the friendly ship being targeted is under the affect of BuffTauntFriendly...

In this situation, the enemy ship will turn towards the Radiance and shoot at it unless the enemy user constantly clicks on the current target...doing so will prevent the ship from turning towards the Radiance but it won't shoot at its current target either (BuffTauntFriendly seems to interfere with that)...this is the situation where animosity works best...

2) An enemy ship in range of animosity is trying to shoot one of your ships that is not in range of animosity...therefore, the enemy ship is under the affect of BuffTaunt while the friendly ship being targeted is not under the affect of BuffTauntFriendly...

In this situation, the enemy ship will turn turn towards the Radiance and shoot at it unless the enemy user constantly clicks on the current target...doing so will prevent the ship from turning and it will continue to shoot at its current target...this situation does allow the enemy to continue firing on their intended target but only if they continually click on it...

3) An enemy ship not in range of animosity is trying to shoot one of your ships that is in range of animosity...therefore, BuffTauntFriendly will cause the enemy ship to re-target (almost certainly will be the Radiance) unless the enemy user constantly clicks on the current target or selects a new target outside the range of Animosity...

If the user does not constantly click on the current target, the enemy ship will re-target (usually the Radiance, but may be something outside the range of Animosity)...

However, unlike situation 2, one click on a target outside the range of animosity will suffice to change targets...your enemy will not have to be constantly clicking in order to re-target something else outside the range of Animosity since his ships are not affected by BuffTaunt (their target was just affected by BuffTauntFriendly)...

4) An enemy ship not in range of animosity shooting at one of your ships also not in range of animosity will be unaffected...

What does this mean? Animosity can only guarantee the enemy will shoot the Radiance if both the target and the enemy ship are in range of animosity (and that's really only a half-guarantee)...if only the enemy ship is in range of animosity, the enemy can continue shooting the target with constant clicking...if only the friendly ship is in range of animosity, the enemy can continue shooting the target with constant clicking or with one click can select a new target outside the range of Animosity...

I have just changed the buffs so that any ship leaving the range of Animosity (friendly or not) will stop being affected by the buffs...in addition, the range on this ability currently cannot affect LRFs unless the Radiance moves towards them before activating the ability...also, the Radiance cannot move while using this ability since it is a channeling ability...

So, before you go looking to nerf this thing with max target caps and not letting it affect SC, keep in mind that there are already huge limitations on this ability...even if there was a ridiculously overpowered hull regen while this ability is active, the enemy user is capable of preventing all ships from shooting the Radiance with constant clicking on something else (those in range of Animosity simply won't shoot anything at all)...in fact, unless both the enemy ships and the target are within the range of Animosity, the enemy user will still be able to target anything he wishes and successfully shoot it (though it may require constant clicking for 20s)...AND since the radiance can't move the enemy can easily just move his ships out of range (which is a pitiful 5000m at most)...now this ability will disorganize FFing or at the very least break up the enemies micro for 20s, but it is by no means making anything invulnerable...

If the hull regen is seen as over powered that is one thing (and needs to be changed anyway), but the aspect of Force Attacking is not even close to overpowered...it can be too easily countered or avoided...so seriously, stop trying to nerf an ability that is already weak...if this ship doesn't at least affect all the targets within its pitiful range or disrupt SC FFing, then it serves absolutely no purpose....it lasts only 20s and it can be countered simply be moving your ships or clicking on your target constantly (not to mention ion bolt or any other interrupter)...this ability needs to have infinite targets and affect SC in order to disorganize the enemy's FFing somewhat (key word being SOMEWHAT)...if you take those things away this ability will be as bad as it is in the current game...

Now, the hull regen thing is probably not going to work out...the only way to balance it precisely is if the invulnerability with damage reduction is added...and that really isn't a great idea...so....

mk... let me try this...

take off the channeling...

take off the hull regen...

and give it 30/40/50% damage reduction for the cooldown period.

Hull regen has gotten very few test results and lots of complaints...so lets just try good ol' damage reduction...its not creative but hey at least it works...

Currently adaptive forcefield provides 15%/25%/35% damage reduction...this actually will reduce damage by 13%/20%/26%...since this ability is passive and offers a secondary tanking ability (PM protection) I think the Radiance should average at least these numbers if not more....

So, let's shoot for reducing actual damage by the same amount as adaptive forcefield...in order to average an actual damage reduction of 13%/20%/26%, an ability active only 1/3 of the time would need to reduce actual damage by 39%/60%/78%...convert those numbers to damage reduction values, and that is 64%/150%/355%...

Therefore, I'm proposing that Animosity grant 65%/150%/350% damage reduction instead of the current hull regen bonus...these numbers will average to the same actual damage reduced by adaptive forcefield...if you all would like more even numbers I'm sympathetic with that and I'm sure it can be done...

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Quoting Seleuceia,

reply 167

I'm not certain I understand what you are getting at but I think I do...someone (I think Pbhead?) brought up the point that the buff BuffTauntFriendly that uses ForceAttackersToRepickTarget may cause an enemy ship outside the affect of animosity to still be unable to shoot a ship within the sphere of influence of animosity...in theory this is correct, but in practice I'm not sure yet...if it's a problem I'll work on fixing it (likely will involve lowering the range of just this buff)...depending on the strength of the secondary buff of this ability, it really may not be an issue (simply part of the advantage in using this ability)...another thing I'm considering is raising the antimatter cost of animosity...right now the ship pretty much never runs out of antimatter...even if this ability is OP, if you can only use it 3 times before you run out of antimatter then suddenly may no longer be OP...

Actually I think I was the one who expressed some concern about the targetrepick function giving Animosity an umbrella of invulnerability to nearby ships (maybe Pbhead did too?)..

...Because that's obviously much more powerful than *just* drawing the fire from an infinite number of ships within its (now) wide radius.. And that's all on top of its infinitely scaling hull regen, which should effectively act as a full hull regen when it's being targeted by a lot of ships in the late game.

I also think the 1000% mitigation seems excessive and unnecessary, particularly because that gives it 20s of invulnerability to both its hull and shields. In some ways this new version could be even more powerful than if you'd just stuck with the ondamage hull regen and bumped those numbers up to 10 or 20. That, at least, would allow the enemy to wear down the Radiance's shields. And yes, I also suggested making it interruptible and/or channeling, but I ultimately argued that it was too exploitable/overpowered with the infinite target count.. and that was even before you added the 1000% mitigation.

The thing is, no other ship in the game can give itself invulnerability for 20s.. and keep fighting (compare Phase out Hull or Armistice). No other ship in the game can actually force enemy focus fire (and/or completely disable enemy targeting in a radius). And with the Energy Absorbing armor buff, the Radiance already has one passive defense boost ability. I think we should just buff that (I suggested 1.5/3/4.5), and then focus on using Animosity as an ability that saves allied ships from focus fire. A massive mitigation/temporary invulnerability boost could also be balanced.. somehow.. but that would have to be a more expensive and less frequently used ability, and I think that would diminish the cool side of a working Animosity that actually forces enemies to target the ship.

I also suggested making it a shorter duration ability with powerful regen, (something strong to justify high AM cost, but short/weak enough so that it wasn't OP'd). The on-damage-regen is nice because it scales, but no other unit in the game has infnitely scaling regen so I'm not sure we should be testing it out here with an ability that already has a lot of tactical value. Why not go back to a basic, simple, hull-per-second regen? Who cares if it's not enough to save the Radiance from infinite focus fire..? Does any other ship have the ability to tank infinite focus fire? The Advent have lots of other abilities that can stack/support the Radiance using Animosity, so it's not like it's doomed without the mega buffs.

I think the infinite target count is ok, but then the ability needs to have an (unfortunately) smaller radius and it gets harder to balance as the game scales into bigger numbers. (Again, I have to say, there's no reason why cap ships have to scale proportionally throughout the game.. One Radiance *should* start to feel relatively weaker as the game goes on because later in the game it's eventually possible to field 3-4 of them in the same battle).

I also think a high target count can work, even with strike craft. If it tops out at ~500-1000 then it can still affect a ton of ships... (I'm trying 32/128/512). Personally, I'm in favor of a target cap because this would let us expand the radius for Animosity a lot more and still keep its impact balanced vs the cap. This is clearly a tough ability to balance because an opponent only needs to give their ships move orders to ignore the forced-fire function. Thus the trick, in my view, is making that act alone a big penalty for the enemy. If Animosity has a big radius and/or it can move swiftly among the enemy fleet, then its ability to disrupt targeting orders gives the Advent player a major maneuvering/tactical advantage because the enemy player can be repeatedly forced to move their ships around, all while being pummeled by enemy focus fire.

If you assume that the enemy is going to focus fire on the Radiance anyway, then it makes sense to give it some kind of additional buff/debuff.. A simple hull regen could work. The on-damage regen could be interesting if you set it really high because then it forces the enemy to choose between moving their ships away or completely regening the Radiance's hull (or shields, if you changed it).. But that would require a shorter duration so it acted more as a temporary mega-regen instead of a longer period of complete invulnerability..

I also think my suggested speed/maneuvering buff (modified from the Antorak Marauder's) could work since it's mildly useful out of battle and in battle it helps the Radiance escape or charge in close, all while drawing more fire.

Finally, I'm experimenting with Cleansing Brilliance with a 90s cooldown, but with slightly debuffed dmg and beam radius. I'm comparing CB to the Vulkoras' Disintegration ability, which fires every 90 seconds for 150 AM

Disintegration does 2400 dmg, 1200 of it goes through shields (i.e., straight to the hull). It also heals the Vulkoras for 960 hull and shields (1920 total) and it regens 120 AM in 8 seconds.. almost enough to pay for itself.

CB only does 2000 dmg in the regular 1.19, and only every 120s. CB obviously has the advantage of being able to hit all the targets in its column, but it can be difficult to make that work well.. and the per-target DPS is still lower, especially if you add the value of the regen into the DPS equation. Seleuc's current version of CB helps with a DPS buff, but since we've realized that the Radiance needs a good way to spend AM I think it makes sense to cut the cooldown for CB and let the Radiance use Animosity+Energy Absorption to fuel its death beam.

I changed the DPS to 300, and the duration to 10s. That gives it the same 3,000 dmg per shot as Seleuc's 500/s for 6s. But it makes it a bit easier to interrupt, a bit harder to chain with Malice, and a bit easier for enemy's to flee/avoid the damage.

I also reduced the beam's damage radius to 750 (from 1000) because it looked silly to be destroying ships so far outside the beam.. and I felt that this visual disconnect made it a bit more unpredictable.. and I think the lower cooldown+beam that fires for the full 10 seconds makes up for the lost radius by allowing frequent cuts through enemy frigate/cruiser blobs.

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ZombiesRus5

Join Date 02/2009

+340

I'm not sure your explanation of how this ability will work in multiplayer is quite correct. A simple scenario is I won't just use one Radiance to exploit this ability, I will use at least two overlapping the majority of my fleet. Not to mention the two Radiance overlapping will grant the same repick target and chance to not be optimally targetted to each other. I'm not sure we want to create nearly invincible fleets with a non-ultimate ability.

I believe I have a simpler solution for Taunt that makes it work as intended by the devs at least with my prelimenary testing.

I changed the SetTauntTargetToLastSpawner from an instant action to a periodicAction in the BuffTaunt.entity. Issueing an other attack order is queued but the attack target doesn't change until the effect wears off.

Additionally, I was playing with a punishment for attempting to move away from the Radiance by adding a entity bool modifier to disable the linear engines (i.e. the ship still turns to in the direction of the move order but can't engage linear engines forward/away) until the effect wears off. The enemy can try to disengage from the Radiance if they want, but they would be stuck until the ability wears off.

Seems to all work well when tested and doesn't change the ability to much from it's original intent (even adding the debuff IMO).

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5790092/Temp/BuffTaunt.entity

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