Now, Kharma...let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly...

Current, shield projection on the Iconus Guardian means that some of the damage suffered by nearby ships is shared by the iconus...are you saying apply this concept to the radiance so that it takes damage when nearby ships are attacked?

An interesting idea...a very interesting idea...it would have to affect hull, not just shields though in order to work...

I agree...

Very important points...the Radiance needs to be killable...if it is killable, it is less likely any ability will become overpowered...the issue with adding a secondary buff to animosity is that it makes the Radiance harder to kill...that may be reasonable to some extent, but I think we should make sure the primary affect of animosity isn't too powerful before we proceed with a secondary buff...

In order to have something to test we need specific changes...

I'm going to test with the original range/AM cost/duration/cooldown but with Zombie's fix (only change made with the most recent version of the mod) and increased max # of targets...

I'm going to start with 24/48/72 for frigates and 40/80/120 individual SC...anyone who wants to is obviously encouraged to test this with whatever numbers they choose...it would be really nice to get a fined tuned set of numbers for this ability...

I didn't say that we should make it a tank, only that it should have another role.  Sleek doesn't mean one-trick-pony.

I'm thinking that this should probably be a protective ability that can be used to either preserve the Radiance or another capital ship.  Those kinds of abilities are definitely needed in this game.

Im agreeing with you I wasn't suggesting anything one-trick.  What was suggested by Agent of Kharma does accomplish something -else-, it would reduce the damage done to capital ships, and in a sense preserve the Radiance.  Especially considering the threat posed by LRFs. 

And regarding the tank thing, im just saying reducing incoming damage or reducing accuracy would be more logical (imo) then regenerating hull when being hit...

^Wasn't the only reason animosity was scrapped was over fears of multiple Radiances?

Fits with the theme, but not the play style. If the Radiance is doomed (or even a strong chance) to die no matter what when using this ability, no one will ever build a Radiance anyways. In the fact the only reason anyone would build a capitalship with a built in extra chance of dying would be if they could blow it up Argonev style, but that really isn't an option. I think if managed properly the Radiance shouldn't die unless it was a very large late game fleet. But if you screw up (your subverters get disabled, your mothership gets targeted by a Kortul during the cooldown time and can't cast shield regeneration fast enough) its game over. Again the only real issue is multiple Radiances, which I fear can only be controlled with a target cap.

I've been continuing my game to test animosity, and here are my thoughts so far...

Right now my fleet is using about 800 fleet supply (I have 5 upgrades which puts me at 1090 fleet supply)...Right now I have 3 caps and 10 Aerias (350 supply), 6 Iconus Guardians (42 supply), and 56 combat ships (Destras, illuminators, defense vessels)...if you count all the ships in my main fleet with weapons it comes out to 65 (56 combat + 6 guardians +3 caps)...right now I'm using over 40% of the maximum fleet supply and 1 Radiance with level 3 animosity could affect my entire fleet...if I were to extrapolate my 65 ships to 2000 fleet supply we'd be looking at about 160 ships...two Radiances could just about cover that whole fleet...

So, I don't think a max target count above 72 is ever going to be necessary, and with my experience the range (surprisingly) is working out just fine...it requires some work and micro management to use, but it's still easy enough to do that it's worth using the ability...however I am playing on normal speed so take that as you will...

I might add that in my previous analysis, when I predicted the number of frigates in use I forgot about light carriers, so my numbers were much higher than they should have been...

I am still undecided on continuing to let this ability affect SC...like magnetize it is heavily tilted against the Vasari since they have much less SC per squadron than Advent or Tec...

Next version of this mod is likely to see the following changes:

Cleansing brilliance cooldown decreased from 120s to 90s...column radius decreased from 1000 to 750...

Animosity gives damage reduction of 20%/40%/80% (actually reduces damage by approximately 15%/30%/45%)...

Max # of targets reduced from 24/48/72 to 16/32/48 (for frigates)...

Feedback appreciated...

I concur...the most reason version of the mod has 4 downloads...every time I've changed versions, I don't remember seeing a download count of more than 5...

I think something like this would help give any mod some...officiality...here's the problem, why hasn't it already happened?  Why is was there no community mod before?  I don't know...there obviously are a lot of ideas and some people had put a lot of thought into the matter before this thread even started...I know many people have modded the game and play their own versions anyway...

I was hoping that if I actually started something...actually had something people could download, that at the very least other threads would pop up...some people want to fix pirates, BOOM, there's a thread...some people want to rework refineries and BOOM, there's a thread...

Unfortunately that didn't happen...

I'm going to go over everything in this mod with a fine tooth comb, see if any small tweaks need to be made...

Right now, here is what I'm probably going to do with the Radiance:

Animosity...max target count will probably be set to 16/32/48...SC will probably not be affected (a tough decision but SC are only going to be weakened in the future and other FFing choices weakened, so this choice pretty much guarantees it won't become overpowered)...ability will provide a damage reduction of 20%/40%/80%...

As tempting as it is to buff energy absorption's armor, with the damage reduction to animosity I'm probably going to revert to the buff to antimatter conversion...

Cleansing brilliance is going to have a 90s cooldown and column radius of 750...

As for other potential changes.....

The Jarrasul's colonize ability may have its duration decreased slightly...720s is a long time to have a planetary bonus....

EMP, Magnetize, Vertigo, and Vengeance all may have their AM costs looked at...all of them right now have incrementing costs (ex: 50/55/60)...since they are support ships, this may be okay...or, it might be a bad idea and constant costs are the way to go...feedback appreciated....

Once this part of the mod is finalized, I'll upload it to this website (still don't know how to do that for certain or where the best place to upload this is) and start a thread in the mod section with a link to this mod...from their, I'll post links to future components of this mod....

If an organized community effort to do...well, really anything, comes about, awesome...and if not, oh well, I'm going to try and continue as long as I can...

Just speaking for myself, I'm not sure that the community mod addresses my particular concerns.  I'm okay with that - it obviously can't be everything to all people, but....

I think because there is a perception, possibly correct, that the online players would not bother to download and use it.

The most recent version of this mod (v0.40) is now being released...it is not necessarily the final version but it is very close...

Most of the changes made since v0.32 regard the Radiance and have been discussed in the above posts...the only other changes have been minimal (Jarrasul's colonize duration decreased and EMP antimatter costs decreased)...also, a new string file has been added with ability descriptions taking into account the changes implemented (Animosity, GRG, Clairvoyance, Guidance, Jarrasul's Colonize, Incendiary Shells)...

Right now we are at the point where we go over everything with a fine tooth comb...

Project Equilibrium - Change Log

v0.40 -- Released 7/23/2010

Text changes

-Ability descriptions now reflect the implemented changes

Capital Ship Changes

-Kol

--Gauss Rail Gun
---Antimatter cost decreased from 75 to 40
---Damage increased from 325/650/975 to 600/900/1200
---Now decreases target's weapon cooldown by 33%
---Duration increased from 10s to 10/15/20

--Flak Burst
---Range increased from 2400/3000/3600 to 3000/3600/4200
---Cooldown decreased from 12/10/8 to 10/9/8
---Damage increased from 30/45/60 to 40/50/60

--Adaptive Forcefield
---Changed to passive ability

--Finest Hour
---Antimatter regeneration decreased from 5 per second to 3 per second
---Hull regeneration increased from 10 per second to 15 per second

-Radiance

--Animosity
---BuffTaunt now reapplies itself 1000 times a second
---Max number of targets increased from 8/16/32 to 16/32/48
---Now gives 20%/40%/80% damage reduction

--Energy Absorption
---Percent of damage converted to antimatter increased from 5%/10%/15% to 10%/20%/30%

--Cleansing Brilliance
---Cooldown decreased from 120s to 90s
---Duration decreased from 8s to 6s
---Damage per second increased from 250 to 500
---Radius of column decreased from 1000m to 750m
---Destroying target no longer ends ability

-Sova

--Missile Batteries
---Cooldown decreased from 35s to 35/30/25

--Heavy Strikecraft
---Physical damage bonus increased from 12%/24%/36% to 15%/30%/45%
---Armor bonus increased from 2/3.5/5 to 2/4/6

-Skirantra

--Scramble Bombers
---Duration decreased from 120s to 60s
---Antimatter cost changed from 50 to 45/50/55
---Cooldown time decreased from 35s to 24s

-Jarrasul

--Colonize
---Planet now temporarily has an extra 1/2/3 constructors
---No longer provides a structure build rate bonus
---Duration changed from 240/480/720 to 600s

-Dunov

--Shield Restore
---May now cast ability on self
---Now restores 50 shields per second for 5s in addition to current buff

--EMP
---Range increased from 4500m to 4500/5000/5500
---Antimatter cost changed from 100/90/80 to 80/85/90
---Cooldown decreased from 50/45/40 to 30/25/20

--Magnetize
---Antimatter cost increased from 80 to 80/85/90
---Max number of targets increased from 8/12/16 to 1000000 (essentially infinite)
---Max number of strikecraft that can be destroyed increased from 8/12/16 to 16/24/32

-Rapture

--Vertigo
---Range of casting ability increased from 4500m to 6000m (range of buff unchanged)
---Antimatter cost decreased from 70 to 50/55/60

--Vengeance
---Antimatter cost decreased from 70 to 50/55/60
---Cooldown changed from 30/35/45 to 30/35/40
---Duration increased from 20/30/40 to 30/35/40

--Domination
---Cooldown deacreased from 60s to 45s

-Antorak

--Distort Gravity
---Antimatter cost decreased from 65 to 40
---Cooldown decreased from 45s to 30s
---Ranged increased from 5000m to 8000m

--Subversion
---Ability no longer requires user to target planet
---Ability no longer stacks
---Antimatter cost decreased from 100 to 50
---Cooldown increased from 75s to 120s
---Structure and ship build time penalty increased from 50%/100%/150% to 100%/200%/300%
---Duration increased from 300/450/600 to 360/480/600

-Marza

--Incendiary Shells
---Fixed bug where debuff was cancelled by successive shots
---Now temporarily decreases target's armor by .5/1/1.5

--Missile Barrage
---Range decreased from 10000m to 8000m

-Revelation

--Guidance
---Is now a passive ability
---Range is 8000m
---Reduces antimatter cost and ability cooldown for all friendly forces by 10%/20%/30%

--Clairvoyance
---Duration increased from 90/120/150 to 90/180/270
---Now reduces bombing cooldown by 10%/20%/30% for all friendly units at the targeted planet
---Buff will still affect ships entering gravity well after ability has been activated

--Provoke Hysteria
---Cooldown decreased from 180s to 120s
---Percent of planet population killed per second increased from .75% to 1%

-Vulkoras

--Phase Missile Swarm
---Range increased from 5000 to 6000/7000/8000
---Max number of targets increased from 3/5/7 to 24
---Antimatter cost changed from 90 to 80/90/100

--Assault Specialization
---Bonus damage against structures increased from 60/120/180 to 120/240/360

It is in the spirit of the original ability (taunt), i.e. the radiance takes damage instead of the fleet taking damage.

As far as survivability, all capships need more survivability, not just the radiance.  I sort of consider that a separate issue.  Having said that, I guess you could also make my animosity idea buff shield mitigation or something as well.

This is related to what I intended to start, but I think arbitrary HP increases would be too ineffective. From a modding point of view the damagemodifiers are the only way to go for issues like this, but the thing is it is a very delicate file. A 5% change one way or the other can completely make or break an entire unit type, which is why I was hoping to at least get this worked out first before starting on it. Thus it is going to require an ridiculous amount of testing and a good chunk of math.

Pirates on the other hand, while less important to balance, would be able to be completed with far fewer testers and in much quicker time. However if interest in this is fading, in might be wiser to do the hardest things first.

I like all of the changes.

I agree with you about Cleansing Brilliance.. I wondered if the 3,000 dmg might be too high for 90s, but it's still much lower than something like GRG (and with a higher AM cost per dmg than GRG).  And as I detailed before, it compares very well with the Disintegration ability that also has a 90s cooldown.  (Disintegration does less damage to a single target, but it strikes armor directly for half that damage and it regens a lot of hull, shields, and AM for the Vulkoras).

Animosity:

I like the changes, but I think we should still consider including SC as a separate group with its own max targets (that's a very solid approach imo).  You're right that abilities with max targets affect the Vasari more (this is true for frigates as well since Vasari ships use more supply).  Conversely, abilities balanced for infinite targets can be disproportionately powerful vs the Advent because they tend to have weaker ships in higher numbers (consider Flak Burst and Telekinetic Push).

As for the numbers: I like the sound of your previous suggestion (40/80/120) but I haven't tested that so I can't say too much about it..  If you think that's too strong, you could try lower numbers, but anything with a max # of targets will favor the Advent over the Vasari.  I'm actually thinking that an infinite cap for the Strikecraft might be ok too.. After all, SC can very easily fly away so this ability just creates a choice for the oppoent: Should they just let their SC focus on the Radiance for 20s or should they leave it as a no-fly zone.  That makes it kind of like Jam Weapons.. which might seem unfair to Jam weapons except that Jam weapons has the clear advantage of not allowing any dmg from the SC, as well as advantages in duration.

As for AM cost: I think 65/65/65 is probably good.  It may be tough to manage at lower levels, but that's the idea imo. And with the buffs you've given it, it's certainly useful enough to justify 65 AM (the damage mitigation alone makes it worthwhile if the Radiance is under fire).

As for the mitigation: This seems fair enough to me, but I haven't tested it yet. However, I still favor an armor boost for Energy Absorption over any buff to its AM regen.  The buffed AM regen on Energy Absorption just made the abilities too cheap.  The more AM is a limited resource, the easier it is for us to balance abilities by their costs.  So if the big mitigation boost to the Radiance convinces you not to buff Energy Absorption's armor, then I vote for decreasing the migitation on Animosity and moving some of that buff to the armor on EAbsorption.

I'm just not convinced by the argument that the Advent shouldn't have a high armor Bship.  The TEC get phase-missile mitigation for the Kol (the Advent could use it more), and the shield biased Advent seem to really need one (or more) armor boosted ships to make up for their lower hull hitpoints.  Seeing as how the Advent are supposed to be technologically advanced, a sleek and slender Battleship with unusually high armor (owing to either advanced materials or some sort of crazy telekinetic reinforcement) makes sense to me.

The new Clairvoyance change= Awesome.  I love that this lets them project a siege/bombing boost to other worlds.  Any chance that this would boost allied ships as well?  And should it?

Guidance seems like a nice buff. 

I like most of it.. really.

However, I do wish Flak Burst had a smaller radius than Telekinetic push.  Telekinetic push has other advantages of course, but since FB does 20 more damage per shot I liked that Telekinetic push used to have a broader radius.  It's a minor issue, but I just liked that kind of subtle factional differences between similar abilities.  I think a 3000/3400/3800 FB would still be ok.. But I'm not sure it deserves the nerf.

Just to clarify, I wasn't stating that HP increases are the way to go (I don't know if they are or aren't).  I was simply stating that a hit point increase of a few hundred points is something that a DesConnor might go for, but nothing beyond that, while I think more "radical" solutions than "tweaks" are in order.

There are two "camps," if you will.  The "tweak" camp, and the "more than tweak" camp.  A couple hundred hit point increase is a "tweak."

Actually the whole LRF/Bomber issue will be the main thing messing with the damage modifiers will fix. Ship stats (with the possible exception of certain capitalships) should wait until we get that sorted out because these values influence on the game is second only to abilities.

I don't have a problem with this either, the thing is on many abilities it doesn't. On EMP pulse for example, the antimatter increases by 5 every time but the ability only adds 50 damage/antimatter removed every level. Granted the range increases and cooldown decreases every time as well, but I think a slight increase to the effect say 50/105/160 would be better at preventing the diminishing returns effect. Again trivial, and it does encourage the getting all of the abilities unlocked early, but I'm not sure if it is the ideal way to handle the situation.