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Tech stealing

By on December 15, 2010 3:17:17 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

sareth01

Join Date 08/2008
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So, there are a great many unique tech's out there.  Some could be stolen by some crafty spies.  Having a cloaked spy ship that a scout can see when it gets upgraded with unique sensors would be interesting  Think of a cloaked ship as a scout with no shields and no weapons that moves slowly to maintain its cloak.  This spy ship can infiltrate a lab structure and steal a tech from the lab that the opposing player has already researched.  A spy could also temporarily cause a loss of the "tech" for X amount of seconds/minutes depending upon what tech was lost.  Ship abilities Shouldn't be affected.  Ship production could be though!  LRM spam? heck no my spy stopped that for a full two minutes!  here is a breakdown of the spy tech level of each race.  Advent, tech level 3 military AND civilian.  Terran, tech level 4 military AND civilian.  Vasari Tech level 5 Military and civilian.

Spies could also provide information on enemy research and fleet movements (most advanced tech research required)

My reasoning for the tech's are as follows. 

Advent make the best spies, because they are telepaths.  reading minds makes your spies really kickass.

Terran spies work well because they can pass as advent with some technical upgrades, and could wear a "suit" to look like a vasari.

Vasari spies would the be the hardest to mix with the local lab techs.  Maybe they smell? They need MAJOR reconstructive surgery and deodorant to be socially acceptable.  So spying isn't their forte.  Plus, the vasari once ruled the universe, do you think they would stoop to copying some other races "technology"?

ADDITION:

The stolen technology need not be as potent or as useful as the original, but it would give at least a limited capability to another race.

Vasari phase missiles could be stolen and a ship factory would be manually upgraded(these upgrades could be expensive as well, say 3k+ creds?) via credit cost to implement the new technology.  The advent could then produce phase missile frigates.  Or illuminators could get some phase missiles and get rid of beam weapons.

Likewise a spy could infiltrate an enemy factory(or starbase for that matter) to determine if it has any upgrades on it that would allow it to produce special ships.  The spy could disable these special technologies for a long time at that factory.

Food for thought

Naturally people will worry about watering down the game by making races "seem" too much like others.

This idea is SO flexible that it could do both, increase player options and fun, and RETAIN the inherent advantages that the races enjoy.  Vasari would still be tanks, advent would still be culture kings, and TEC would still be economic champs.  The point is to supplement the fleets with more capabilities so that you can have more fun.

Also, cloak and dagger is fun!

 

 

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December 15, 2010 7:08:32 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Cloaked ships have been experimented on by modders, but afaik, no successful ship has been made so far. Current "cloaking" consists of phasing out the ship much like the Vasari Scout is able to shift itself into Phase Space at will - the problem is that it is still visible to other players even when phased out.

Stealing technology, though it fits with war, may not work out so well in Sins. For instance, the Advent would have no use for stolen phase missile plans - they use exclusively energy weapons.

There already exist abilities made to slow down ship production - off the top of my head, I can remember three, two for the Traders, one for the Vasari. TEC can inhibit ship/structure construction through either the Sova's Embargo or through culturing hostile planets after upgrading Foreign Sabotage. The Vasari's Antorak has Subversion, which works by deploying recon teams to the surface of a planet to harass ship and structure construction and provide gravity well intel.

And for the record, the Vasari have copied technologies before: although they were the first to employ the use of the Phase Jump Inhibitor, they didn't design them - they found them lying around (by some even older race?) and thought they could make use of them, but couldn't reverse-engineer them. They just made exact copies with their expertise in nanotechnology.

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December 15, 2010 7:18:39 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Instead of a cloaked ship, I think a Marine Boarding Craft would be preferable. It could have plenty of hitpoints to protect it during an assault, but also be visible and not completely invincible. The Marines could capture a ship and bring it back to a Military Research Station where the technologies employed in it would be gradually obtained - thus requiring the ship not to be part of a battle and allowing for the player who the ship was stolen from to be able to retake it prior to complete technological assimilation.

 

Also, a Marine Boarding Craft could capture and hold enemy orbital platforms as well as capture planets without having to bombard them from orbit.

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December 15, 2010 3:17:26 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Hmmm...like the concept but it would be difficult to steal tech from other races but still not sure if its impossible. Need to fiddle around a bit.

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December 15, 2010 3:32:29 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

yeah the concept is the point of the post

The balance as to WHAT abilities could be stolen would naturally have to be tested and make sense.

Being able to slow down production via culture is passive(or a very slow slow slow version of active play). Culture is also very easily countered, so its effects a lot of the time don't hinder the enemy to the degree that it should.  This would be ACTIVE play.  This would take the player's attention to implement.  This would be fun.  That's why I wanted to post this idea .

This has been done in the red alert series, which has worked well to add a "spy" cat and mouse game feel as an aspect of play.

This would work well with this game.  It fits.

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December 15, 2010 10:26:56 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

From a mechanical perspective this likely wouldn't work.  In most situations, you need to be very lean on tech in this game.  Until you have a mature fleet and economy, it just doesn't make sense to go for the expensive high-level techs, so the vast majority of your technology is going to be level 1 or 2, which probably would never be worth stealing in the first place. 

If anything, we need more content to encourage people to invest in higher-level tech, something that usually only happens once you've already maxed out your economic infrastructure.  This suggestion might actually discourage investing in technology by giving your enemy an inexpensive way to steal your advantage.  I don't think this would be good for the game.

 

This has been done in the red alert series, which has worked well to add a "spy" cat and mouse game feel as an aspect of play.

Personally, I always thought the spy was stupid.  It was basically a crap shoot as to whether your opponent wasn't looking when you were sending him in.  If your oppnonent was paying attention, spies couldn't get into buildings, end of story.

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December 16, 2010 6:06:56 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It worked in GalCiV2 because it's a good fit in a turn based game as expansive as GalCiv2. In SINS I think it would be a gimmick mechanic that would need a gimmick counter like another spy... and then you just turn SINS into Spy vs Spy.

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December 16, 2010 7:59:10 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting XxTaLoNxX,
It worked in GalCiV2 because it's a good fit in a turn based game as expansive as GalCiv2. In SINS I think it would be a gimmick mechanic that would need a gimmick counter like another spy... and then you just turn SINS into Spy vs Spy.

 

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Providing more options allows for more diverse varieties of gameplay.

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December 16, 2010 2:55:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting numerarius5988am,

Quoting XxTaLoNxX, reply 6It worked in GalCiV2 because it's a good fit in a turn based game as expansive as GalCiv2. In SINS I think it would be a gimmick mechanic that would need a gimmick counter like another spy... and then you just turn SINS into Spy vs Spy.
 

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Providing more options allows for more diverse varieties of gameplay.

 

While I agree that more option allows more gameplay and tactics variables, I just don't think Espionage would fit in the current game. What techs are worth stealing? Phase Missiles? Extractor Bonuses? And then if we get tech stealing we will actually see fleets that are consisting of the best units in the game (example=Aeria Drone carriers, Cobalts, LRMs, Kodiaks, Subverters, Iconis) which would actually take away from the uniqueness of the current factions.

 

IF we were to add espionage it would have to be a mechanic that is based on sabotage, information gathering (fleet size + consistancy), and resource theft.

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December 16, 2010 5:37:03 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

If you read the initial post you will see that it says you have to PAY to upgrade your factories.  No such thing as FREE tech.  This would be more expensive as reverse engineering/creating from blueprints takes a bit of investment. 

The counter to a spy would be having a scout upgraded to see past the camouflage that is on auto attack.  The scout would defeat the sheildless, weaponless low HP spy.  The spying WOULD be used later in the game because it would be so easy to protect your empire when it is small.  When you have labs all over the map and are focusing on many other aspects of play a player might slip into your empire unnoticed and grab a tech or limit production or something.  This never was an "all" or nothing idea.  The spy was poorly implemented into red alert, but i was using that game as an example that spying in RTS has been done before.  The quality of the implementation would be up to ironclad, and from what we've seen it would be good!

As for fleets being formed that have only all the best tech, i agree that if not properly BALANCED the game would devolve into a slush that wouldn't be as clear.  Some ships should not be stealable.  Some tech should be stealable like expansion of tactical/logistics slot upgrades on planets.  Trade tech's.  Some things that make each race unique shouldn't be steal able.  It would be up to testers to balance it and i'm sure that people would be listened to in this regard as they have in the past.

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December 30, 2010 8:20:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well, instead of getting tech, what about a damage bonus against that ship type? Not a large one, but say you get up to a maximum of 5% if you capture x amount. That would solve the tech problems, since a lot of the tech doesn't cross factions.

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December 31, 2010 11:37:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Vasari spies would the be the hardest to mix with the local lab techs.  Maybe they smell? They need MAJOR reconstructive surgery and deodorant to be socially acceptable.  So spying isn't their forte.  Plus, the vasari once ruled the universe, do you think they would stoop to copying some other races "technology"?

they could send replicator nanites into enemy buildings to scan the technology

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April 18, 2011 4:51:20 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Okay with all the new rebellion changes the game is going to have to get rebalanced.  I still think vasari wouldn't see an incredible gain to gather much information about other races technology, as they are the kings of technology in this game already

Yes they should have plenty of cheap tricks to be gained from this, just like any race.  I wanted to provide a humorous reason for thier slight deficiency when compared to other races.

Thread resurrected because of all the discussion on technology stealing, and how people are loving it.  Perhaps they can check out the ideas on this thread now that there are more people in the forums.

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