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MrTheBest
MrTheBest
Join Date 01/2009
0

Im tired of the Artificial-(non)Intelligence cheating.

February 2, 2011 8:57:58 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

i dont know if you all are, but im tired of cheating AI.

Im tired of seeing HC and Carriers in my first battle, even if I rush the AI.

Im tired of having to SB rush just to force an AI out of a planet they JUST colonized, because if they own a planet they start pulling ships out of their ass until my fleet is picked off ship by ship until I have to retreat.

Im tired of having to build SB just to survive the first wave a comp sends at me.

Im tired of seeing no culture buildings anywhere in an AI planet, build my own culture, then suddenly see they have 3 buildings already spreading culture halfway to my own planet.

Im tired of the goddamn AI being stupid, but winning because they have such a bogus early game advantage.

Now, im not saying I lose all the time, or that its not challenging. Im just tired of having to use the "kill AI" strats, and not strats that I would use in a real game vs semi-intelligent people. I dont need to know how to kill them, because I do. And Im tired of it.

--TL;DR-- I wish Unfair, Cruel, and Vicious AI were actually just smarter, and did not rely on ridiculous advantages. 

/rant

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MrTheBest
Kitkun
Join Date 06/2008
+175
Reply #1 February 2, 2011 9:00:34 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

 

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MrTheBest
GoaFan77
Join Date 10/2008
+629
Reply #2 February 2, 2011 9:48:29 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Inb4dirtysaysplaysinsonline.

Seriously though, since the AI is hard coded, there is not much you can do besides playing against human players now. Its a problem in all games really after you get to a certain point sadly.

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MrTheBest
Kitkun
Join Date 06/2008
+175
Reply #3 February 2, 2011 9:52:16 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,
reply 2
Inb4dirtysaysplaysinsonline.

 

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MrTheBest
Dante551
Join Date 08/2009
+13
Reply #4 February 2, 2011 10:06:03 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

i would but i got sick of pros killing noobs

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MrTheBest
Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
+177
Reply #5 February 2, 2011 10:15:53 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Upsets do happen, you know.

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MrTheBest
Pbhead
Join Date 12/2008
+77
Reply #6 February 2, 2011 10:45:04 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,
reply 2
Inb4dirtysaysplaysinsonline.

 

dammit i was going to say that.

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MrTheBest
dresda
Join Date 04/2009
+6
Reply #7 February 2, 2011 10:58:32 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ,
quoting post

i dont know if you all are, but im tired of cheating AI.

Im tired of seeing HC and Carriers in my first battle, even if I rush the AI.

Im tired of having to SB rush just to force an AI out of a planet they JUST colonized, because if they own a planet they start pulling ships out of their ass until my fleet is picked off ship by ship until I have to retreat.

Im tired of having to build SB just to survive the first wave a comp sends at me.

Im tired of seeinge no culture buildings anywhere in an AI planet, build my own culture, then suddenly see they have 3 buildings already spreading culture halfway to my own planet.

Im tired of the goddamn AI being stupid, but winning because they have such a bogus early game advantage.

Now, im not saying I lose all the time, or that its not challenging. Im just tired of having to use the "kill AI" strats, and not strats that I would use in a real game vs semi-intelligent people. I dont need to know how to kill them, because I do. And Im tired of it.

--TL;DR-- I wish Unfair, Cruel, and Vicious AI were actually just smarter, and did not rely on ridiculous advantages. 

/rant

Unfortunately this is all due to AI restrictions.  If you can build a smart AI then by all means do so.  It's tougher than you think to make a smart AI

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MrTheBest
Pbhead
Join Date 12/2008
+77
Reply #8 February 3, 2011 12:41:56 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Darvin3,
reply 5
Upsets do happen, you know.

 

I do think some ai improvments are in the works, but they wont be superfantastic. (will most likely still suicide on starbases)

That patch is due what... well, 4 weeks ago they said in 3 weeks so... any day now.  I think they are waiting for people to send in some mesh file error something or others.

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MrTheBest
WHIPperSNAPper2008
Join Date 03/2008
+126
Reply #9 February 3, 2011 12:55:29 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,
reply 2
Inb4dirtysaysplaysinsonline.

Seriously though, since the AI is hard coded, there is not much you can do besides playing against human players now. Its a problem in all games really after you get to a certain point sadly.

It sounds like he's having a lot of problems.  Either he's playing against Unfair, Vicious, or Cruel AIs or he might not be cut out for online multiplayer against human opponents (at least not yet), lol.

Yup, the only way to play against opponents that don't get eco buff cheats is to play against other human players.  However, they are capable of using real strategy and tactics and are thus liable to be much tougher than the AI.  He'll find lots of things to gripe about.  "I hate getting rushed!"  "I hate Skinatra Scramble Bomber spam."  "I hate getting starbased."  "I hate starting out in the suicide spot."  Well, learning how to counter all of that or how to deal with it is just part of the game.  Everyone loses games from time to time.  Sometimes it's about figuring out how to help your team and make a contribution even when you're getting beaten.

You do need to have a sense of perseverance and competitive spirit (and perhaps cajones and a sense of macho) to play against other people in online multiplayer, but if you do, it's awesome and so much more satisfying and entertaining than playing against AI.

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MrTheBest
MrTheBest
Join Date 01/2009
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Reply #10 February 3, 2011 5:12:48 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Naw, im not having any problems. I just dont like the lack-of-skill advantage that the upper-level AI get, simply getting things faster than possible. And yeah, im playing vs unfair+. 

AI coding is actually something that mildly interests me, however, and IF i get into a coding career I might try my hand at some AI. But even with the current AI, it would be just as simple as some conditionals with a response, i.e. "larger enemy force in sector, my cap ship is low/destroyed-- response= retreat" or "Number of failed attacks on one planet>9000 -- response= find another planet to attack"

Not gonna lie, they do occasionally show some intelligence, but then you get the herp derps who build their SB on the wrong side of the sector, or send a fleet of only planet bombers to a defended planet.

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MrTheBest
trigorin
Join Date 03/2008
0
Reply #11 February 3, 2011 5:21:47 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

If you're tired of them, don't choose these difficulty levels. The hard AI doesn't cheat but plays very well.

I think, I may be very happy, because I'm not a pro, so I really can enjoy playing this game as well as some other great strategies.

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MrTheBest
WHIPperSNAPper2008
Join Date 03/2008
+126
Reply #12 February 3, 2011 12:52:34 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting MrTheBest,
reply 10
Naw, im not having any problems. I just dont like the lack-of-skill advantage that the upper-level AI get, simply getting things faster than possible. And yeah, im playing vs unfair+.

In that case, at least if you have the Diplomacy expansion, then maybe you're ready to log onto Ironclad Online and try playing in a 4v4 or 5v5 game.  The best times for that seem to be between 3-10 pm U.S. Eastern Time.

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MrTheBest
RaveBomb
Join Date 02/2005
+4
Reply #13 February 3, 2011 2:10:25 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting MrTheBest,
reply 10
AI coding is actually something that mildly interests me, however, and IF i get into a coding career I might try my hand at some AI. But even with the current AI, it would be just as simple as some conditionals with a response, i.e. "larger enemy force in sector, my cap ship is low/destroyed-- response= retreat" or "Number of failed attacks on one planet>9000 -- response= find another planet to attack"

Hard coded conditionals in todays AI is a horiffic idea.

Here are some links to articles that talk about AI for the FPS game, F.E.A.R.   While the AI requirements of a RTS and a FPS are different,  the underlying frameworks is the same.  No scripting, no "simple" conditionals. Instead, allow the computer to query the world, decide what it wants to do, and figure out how to get from the state it's in, to the state it wants to be in.

An overview of how this works    http://aigamedev.com/open/reviews/fear-ai/

That article in turn links to a couple of papers by Jeff Orkin, who I belive did the AI for F.E.A.R.

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MrTheBest
Pupetier
Join Date 10/2009
+27
Reply #14 February 3, 2011 3:11:45 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I people want to write scripts for AI AI will never get smarter and so far as AI goes scripts are pretty much reality...

If they try to create AI according to previous post people need to realize that they must not restart AI from game to game but somehow enable AI to use experience and decisions from previous games... But even then it will take time for AI to grow from infant to child and eventually into wise man....

Until then cheating is the only way AI will be a challenge

 

 

To OP

I don't like to use sb in every gravity well strategy as well

Have you considered to play against multiple hard AIs that are allied at the same time. Hard AI doesn't cheat but at the same time it's quite capable of coordinating attacks.....

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MrTheBest
SageWon
Join Date 07/2008
+45
Reply #15 February 3, 2011 6:12:50 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Hard AI doesn't cheat

No.  The Hard AI also cheats.  Only the Normal & Easy doesn't cheat.

Hard is a 1.5X cheat.  Or 50% more income, metal & crystal.
Unfair      2X   cheat.  Or double
Cruel       4X   cheat.  Or Quadruple
Vicious     6X   cheat.  I'm sure you get the gist.  How Ridiculous!

For proof, just see the third chart down (credits, metal & crystal "gained from planet").  Start a game with each type, quit after a few seconds, look at the charts.

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MrTheBest
Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
+177
Reply #16 February 3, 2011 9:39:30 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

No.  The Hard AI also cheats.

In practice, its own ineptitude and management largely negates its resource bonus, so it doesn't "feel" like it's cheating.

Vicious is pretty nasty; at x6 income, it can basically research every technology, fill every logistic and tactical slot, max out startbases, and still keep all its factories producing frigates at all times.  For all intents and purposes, infinite cash.  I actually don't think it would be POSSIBLE to create a much more challenging AI just by raising its resource cheat.

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MrTheBest
Ryat
Join Date 06/2006
+429
Reply #17 February 3, 2011 11:31:35 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Not too mention the fact that Cruel and Viscous also get research bonuses.

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MrTheBest
MrTheBest
Join Date 01/2009
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Reply #18 February 4, 2011 3:06:18 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RaveBomb,
reply 13


Hard coded conditionals in todays AI is a horiffic idea.

Here are some links to articles that talk about AI for the FPS game, F.E.A.R.   While the AI requirements of a RTS and a FPS are different,  the underlying frameworks is the same.  No scripting, no "simple" conditionals. Instead, allow the computer to query the world, decide what it wants to do, and figure out how to get from the state it's in, to the state it wants to be in.

An overview of how this works    http://aigamedev.com/open/reviews/fear-ai/

That article in turn links to a couple of papers by Jeff Orkin, who I belive did the AI for F.E.A.R.

Yeah, I actually have some deep respect for the FEAR AI. Whoever did that game's AI did it right, imo. The only other (fps) AI out there that competes is the Halo:Reach Elite's AI, or so ive heard, but that was years later.

I will give props to SoaSE AI makers, cause the AI does present challenges at times, but after  awhile i would think there could be some "simple" tweaks identified to let them make better decisions. Maybe instead of hard coding conditionals, do increasing percentages, i.e. "as enemyFleet:myFleet ratio increases, increase probability of retreat, check every 10 seconds" so that they dont just pass a number threshold and retreat, but gives the illusion of making 'choices' as a battle turns against them. Or complicating the current conditionals, letting them take into account more variables when making a choice to do something. I dont know how they did their AI so I obviously cant make real suggestions, but hey, I can try. And hope.

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MrTheBest
a110
Join Date 06/2010
+6
Reply #19 February 4, 2011 6:19:44 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

it's sad that sins in itself is such a good game, but it has 1)a weak and repetitive ai and 2) a miniscule multiplayer playerbase that's hardly accessible to new players

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MrTheBest
WHIPperSNAPper2008
Join Date 03/2008
+126
Reply #20 February 4, 2011 8:20:50 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

As an example of just how retarded the AI is, last night a Vasari AI (of a player who had dropped from the game) tried to build a starbase (alone, without any support ships to help it at all) in a gravity well where I had a carrier-based fleet with about 50 bombers.  Of course, it died immediately at a (wasted) cost of about 2700 credits and about 350 metal and 325 crystal.

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MrTheBest
Pupetier
Join Date 10/2009
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Reply #21 February 4, 2011 8:33:28 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well in contrast to what you are saying dirty I have seen some human players do the same thing or even worse. Yes AI is stupid but in this case its just reflecting human opponents.

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MrTheBest
WHIPperSNAPper2008
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #22 February 5, 2011 4:12:33 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Greg30007,
reply 21
Well in contrast to what you are saying dirty I have seen some human players do the same thing or even worse. Yes AI is stupid but in this case its just reflecting human opponents.

Yessirree Bob!  There are still some new players online for other newer players to match up against.

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MrTheBest
-Ue_Carbon
Join Date 07/2008
+117
Reply #23 February 5, 2011 9:34:34 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

If your not interested in doing the whole people play thing. You could set limits on yourself when you play against the AI. Like no SB the entire game, or only 1 Cap. etc etc etc. Think it as challenge mode. I find it fun just to limit myself like that. My favorite is only 15 Carrier Crusier limit, its even more...fun...when you increase the fleet points to 3x. Hehehe...

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MrTheBest
Pupetier
Join Date 10/2009
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Reply #24 February 5, 2011 10:36:01 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I do the same as -UE_Carbon does when I play against AI. My goal is to beat cruel AI without building a single SB...... and vicious with allowed to build only 1 SB.... 

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MrTheBest
ShotmanMaslo
Join Date 11/2007
+7
Reply #25 February 7, 2011 11:13:39 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

GalCiv II AI is good. They should get the Stardock AI developers together with Ironclad. Or try to evolve simulated neural network for Sins - emergent intelligence FTW! 

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