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Star wars vs star trek

By on March 29, 2011 7:27:34 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Theophantus

Join Date 02/2009
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Is it possible to merge some of the Mods together to create star wars vs star trek? Use the federation from SOA and add them to the Requiem mod? There was a mod that did this for Empire at War FOC. For Sins this would be awesome, to see the Feds against the Empire. A true Sci-fi nerds wet dream. Btw I know nothing about Modding and what it would take to do this. Regards Theo
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March 29, 2011 7:34:28 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Is it Possible? Yes

Is it Recommended? Depends on how the mod is done. You would need to remove the original races because due to the way the game uses memory you might overrun the game.

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March 29, 2011 7:48:25 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ,
Is it possible to merge some of the Mods together to create star wars vs star trek? Use the federation from SOA and add them to the Requiem mod? There was a mod that did this for Empire at War FOC. For Sins this would be awesome, to see the Feds against the Empire. A true Sci-fi nerds wet dream. Btw I know nothing about Modding and what it would take to do this. Regards Theo

Okay, I see, well, a whole boatload of problems with this:

1. Vision. To put it bluntly, what kind of mod are we looking for? Something that accurately portrays what would happen if the Galactic Empire took on the UFP (i.e. curbstomped UFP), or something more along the lines of "mah Star Destroyers r blowin' up ur Galaxy-class starships, hurr durr". Not to bash the second one at all, BTW.

If the first, then you're going to run into the slight problem that all the scientific analysis of both series indicates tha a lone Star Destroyer could solo the entirety of the Alpha Quadrant. High gigatonnage guns>technobabble.

If the second, then you'll run into the problem that, as-is, the different SW and ST mods are all balanced differently. The full-on no-holds-barred SW mod, "Sins of a Galactic Empire" (SOGE) has SD's with very high durability; lots of shield points, and a lot of firepower. The Requiem mod, OTOH, has the SW factions balanced with the Sins factions. And the ST mod, Sacrifice of Angels, is balanced within itself.

2. Balance. I've already noted this one.

3. The big thing about mod-merging is you have to be very, very, careful with how you do it. The primary reason is something that more knowledgeable codemonkeys than I could explain; it comes down to how the Sins engine handles unit entities. For example, the SOGE mod is a full-on total conversion; there's not a scrap of SoaSE-origin content in there. There might be abilities derived from stock abilities, but that's about it.

The SoA2 mod is similar; it's only got ST content, no stock. Requiem is different; it has less SW content, but you have stock Sins ships. Further, there's the scale of the models. ST models are probably in line, whilst the SOGE SW models are actually smaller than the stock models, in order to better accomodate the scale of the larger gravity wells and scope. Requiem, once again in contrast, has models taken from SOGE that have been upscaled, and are in proper scale in relation to the stock Sins models.

A generally secondary point of consideration is that of legal matters. This is mostly an issue with those entities that maintain very strict control over their IP's (I'm looking at you, GW). In this case, you're fine; Lucasfilm and Paramount don't seem to care about fan-produced content, so long as it is producing no profit that is not in some way contributing to themselves (Lucasfilm and Paramount).

4. "Canonicity". This fancy word is something that some of the more die-hard fans will bring up; basically, do we allow fan-made, non-"canon" ships? It's basically a case of, "do we include only those classes described in the source material, or do we also include fan-made ships?" In the case of SW, the world is fleshed out enormously, and doesn't actually require the implementation of fan-made vessels.

In the case of ST, the SoA2 mod has implemented several fan-made classes; this is in part due to the somewhat limited information that has been produced by official sources in reference to some of the ST powers.

5. "Fanboyism". In a nutshell, there are some people who are so dead-set into one point of view (irrespective of whether or not it's wrong), that they simply clamor and scream that if the mod doesn't end up the way they think that a GEvsUFP mod should, then the mod is worse than a steaming pile of fecal waste.

Generally, this will be from rapid trekkies, who think that the UFP could steamroll the Empire, despite the military, economic, and industrial advantages enjoyed by the latter.

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March 30, 2011 12:19:14 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@Whiskey144, i knew it wasn't that simple a question! Great reply btw.

How about this for a star Wars vs Star trek Mod:

1.Vision-"mah Star Destroyers r blowin' up ur Galaxy-class starships, hurr durr".

2.Balance- with the Sins factions.

3.Mod Merging-Like Requiem, take the Star trek models and upscale them in relation to the stock Sins models.

4."Canonicity".- use the SoA2 federation ships.(for non profit purposes and permission from the SoA2 team of course!)

5. "Fanboyism".- Everyone knows the Federation would win!

To sum up the Mod:

"Slightly non-canon, balanced against the stock ships in the vein of the Requiem Mod"

 

Regards,

Theo

 

 

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March 30, 2011 12:33:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Theophantus,
@Whiskey144, i knew it wasn't that simple a question! Great reply btw.

How about this for a star Wars vs Star trek Mod:

1.Vision-"mah Star Destroyers r blowin' up ur Galaxy-class starships, hurr durr".

2.Balance- with the Sins factions.

3.Mod Merging-Like Requiem, take the Star trek models and upscale them in relation to the stock Sins models.

4."Canonicity".- use the SoA2 federation ships.(for non profit purposes and permission from the SoA2 team of course!)

5. "Fanboyism".- Everyone knows the Federation would win!

To sum up the Mod:

"Slightly non-canon, balanced against the stock ships in the vein of the Requiem Mod"

 

Regards,

Theo

 

 

The only thing I can take issue with is the "Federation victory". Which sadly is impossible. But, the Federation does have an advantage: its insignificance compared to the Empire, thus making it unlikely that it would ever be invaded in the first place.

But if it was invaded then it wouldn't be much of a fight. Raw firepower>technobabble.

Other than that, certainly interesting idea.

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March 30, 2011 1:12:39 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

My science fiction universe can beat up your science fiction universe! I love crossover discussions. They never cease to entertain.

 

In all seriousness, if you ignore the ram limit, so long as two projects have their resources named intelligently there would probably be very little pain getting them to play nice together in most areas. You would need to do manual copy pasta in certain files that act as master files e.g. the sound effects entity and music and such. Problems would occur if the devs are using very generic names for stuff that the other mod is also using, e.g. if you have an explosion particle just called "explosion" and the other mod has that as well.

Balancing is really, really easy once you understand how things work. As Whiskey said, before you begin balancing you must make a decision if you want a lore balance or a mechanical balance. In my mod I aimed for a more of a mechanical balance, certain races are so absurdly powerful that without the numbers or plotline to support them in sins the other races wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of surviving more than, literally, a few seconds upon the game starting. Sins is quite limited when it comes to ships, so say you wanted to give Federation ships a maneuverability advantage over Empire ships, well you can't really do that because dynamic AI makes things a total mess should you choose to use it and there are no turrets/firing arcs to speak of.

If anyone whines because you decided to make the mod moderately enjoyable for an otherwise underpowered race, well they obviously don't know anything about game design and are better off in an entirely different crowd altogether.

Now, to speak of the ram limit. I have no idea if the patch fixed anything in regards to it, but expect it to be a major headache in something like this. AFAIK, the star trek mod is always riding the limit's ass. Throwing in one or more races from SW with their own textures will likely be the iron slab to shatter the camel's back.

Is it possible? Sure it is. Is it probable given the current builds of the mods? Not without a fair bit of work I imagine.

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March 30, 2011 1:30:28 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well for the most part Requiem new assets are in there own files (with a couple of exceptions), so that shouldn't be an issue. The problem is as Whiskey mentioned that Requiem assumes all the Vanilla Sins files are present. That means the game has to load a lot more files than just for the Empire/Rebellion, and if SoA was already on the edge that will certainly overwhelm the game.

If that somehow does not though, the hardest part will actually be the string and window/brush files, since unlike textures, meshes and entities the game is hardcoded to read these files and can't be separated into smaller individual parts. While we've labeled our entries in a different format, that is still a lot of find, copy paste work.

Honestly you may be better off begging 7DS to add the federation if it isn't in there already, as I assume they've developed a good system for adding races from different mods by now.

Quoting IskatuMesk,
Now, to speak of the ram limit. I have no idea if the patch fixed anything in regards to it, but expect it to be a major headache in something like this. AFAIK, the star trek mod is always riding the limit's ass. Throwing in one or more races from SW with their own textures will likely be the iron slab to shatter the camel's back.

The patch did improve this somewhat (at least for Vanilla and Requiem, I haven't played the Star Trek mod). I don't know if you succeeded in getting yours updated, but its certainly worth updating for.

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March 30, 2011 1:36:29 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I've updated but I wasn't monitoring the ram usage of my project so I don't know how much of a difference it made.

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March 30, 2011 2:15:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,
If that somehow does not though, the hardest part will actually be the string and window/brush files, since unlike textures, meshes and entities the game is hardcoded to read these files and can't be separated into smaller individual parts. While we've labeled our entries in a different format, that is still a lot of find, copy paste work.

Actually brush files have a manifest so it's possible to put your mod specific entries in their own brush files which I do for my mods.

files that need attention when merging mods

  • AsteroidDef.asteroidDef (planet mods)
  • Explosions.explosiondata (Bailknight's graphic mod for instance)
  • GalaxyScenarioDef.galaxyScenarioDef
  • Gameplay.constants
  • Player[Race].entity (Diplomacy relationships)
  • SoundDialogue.sounddata
  • SoundEffects.sounddata
  • SoundMusic.sounddata
  • others (there a quite a few other files that aren't usually changed)
  • window files (as referenced by GoaFan77)
  • string files (as referenced by GoaFan77)
  • Common entity files modified between mods (this is could result in all kinds of problems...).

manifest driven files:

  • entity
  • brush
  • galaxy
  • playerPictures
  • playerThemes
  • skybox

Quoting GoaFan77,
Honestly you may be better off begging 7DS to add the federation if it isn't in there already, as I assume they've developed a good system for adding races from different mods by now.

I can't speak to how 7ds has managed there's, but I can say my system works really well for merging multiple races together.

I use templates to isolate my race specific features making maintenance much easier. In other words I never modify the common sounddata, galaxyscenariodef, str, etc directly.

Currently I have templates for:

Ant tasks utilized: AddPlanetItemsTemplateGroup, MergeGalaxyScenarioDef, MergeData

  • playerPictures
  • playerThemes
  • GalaxyScenarioDef
    • Planet Items Templates
    • Planet Item Types
    • Player Types
    • Valid Picture Groups
    • Valid Theme Groups
  • English.str
    • Only contains strings specific to the race and is merged with whatever base English.str I choose (i.e. Entrenchment, Diplomacy, SinsPlus)
  • SoundDialogue.sounddata
  • SoundEffects.sounddata
  • SoundMusic.sounddata

Specialized templates for

Ant tasks utilized: StringInfoGenerator, BrushGenerator

  • brushes: csv delimited file with pre-coordinated brush locations making editing of brush files easier.
    • 1,1,ABILITY_ROGUE_DIEHARD,5,1,33,47
  • string info template: bar delimited file making editing of string entries easier.
    • CapitalShip|Nephilim||Battleship|Archangel Battleship|A heavily armed and armored battleship, it leads the Nephlim army into battle
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March 30, 2011 5:36:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Whiskey144,



The only thing I can take issue with is the "Federation victory". Which sadly is impossible. But, the Federation does have an advantage: its insignificance compared to the Empire, thus making it unlikely that it would ever be invaded in the first place.

But if it was invaded then it wouldn't be much of a fight. Raw firepower>technobabble.

Other than that, certainly interesting idea.

"Raw firepower > technobabble." I don't think so. I think the situation would be like the conquistadors vs. the Aztecs. While the Aztecs greatly outnumbered the Conquistadors, the latter had better technology. Yes, the Empire has a vast civilization but it was defeated by a group of ragtag rebels in a couple battles, so I think you're greatly underestimating how the Empire would do against a technologically superior (at least in my opinion) military force.

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March 30, 2011 7:17:43 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
Thanks for the replies guys. @zombie-are you saying that it can be done and that you could actually do it? Do you need any help?
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March 30, 2011 7:33:30 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting hungry_animals,
"Raw firepower > technobabble." I don't think so. I think the situation would be like the conquistadors vs. the Aztecs. While the Aztecs greatly outnumbered the Conquistadors, the latter had better technology. Yes, the Empire has a vast civilization but it was defeated by a group of ragtag rebels in a couple battles, so I think you're greatly underestimating how the Empire would do against a technologically superior (at least in my opinion) military force.

I'm going to be very gentle with this.

1. The Galactic Empire has FTL systems capable of crossing the galaxy within a couple of days, at most. The USS Voyager would have taken 75 years to cover 70,000 light years, which is around half the diameter of a galaxy.

2. The Acclamater-I class troop transport, carried multiple turbolasers that each fired a shot of 200 gigatons of yield. This has been given in the Star Wars:Episode 2 Incredible Cross Sections (SW2ICS). The most generous values for Trek firepower are given in the ST:TNG technical manual, which says that photon torpedoes contain 1.5 kg of antimatter. It seems logical that there would be an equal amount of matter, which would give a yield of 64.3 megatons.

Keep in mind that the Acclamator, which is a troop transport, outguns any Federation starship by a significant margin.

3. Looks aren't everything, you know. Just because Trek ships have a "sleek, modern" feel/look, does not mean that they are more advanced. Also keep in mind the inherent problem with the Federation's AM reactors, which increase reactivity. This is a bad thing, because any competent engineer would design it with minimal reactivity and multiple failsafes. A Fed AM reactor can only be shut-down through ejection, which must be manually activitated.

4. The defeat of the Empire at the hands of the Rebel Alliance was due to numerous factors, and also keep in mind that the Rebels had access to the same technologies that the Empire has. So the Alliance lacked ships, but they did not lack for firepower or durability on a ship-to-ship basis.

Note that the defeat of the Empire at Endor hinged on several, very key factors. First, Palpatine's arrogance played an extremely large role in the defeat; he ordered for the Imperial fleet to launch fighters and disperse their fire on the rebel fleet. The unsupported Imperial fighters were then massacred, and the various Rebel capitals received minimal damage on an individual basis.

In contrast, Ackbar realized that the Executor was the biggest threat, and so had all his ships focus on it. This facilitated the suicide run on the Executor's bridge by the A-Wing. Keep in mind, the bridge shields had been weakened considerably by the bombardment of Ackbar's fleet. Further, the Executor would have recovered, had it not been trapped in the gravity well that the immense mass of the Death Star 2 created. Thus, the Executor crashed into the DS2.

Further, had Palpatine not been obsessed with converting Luke to the Dark Side, the Rebels wouldn't have been able to take out the shield protecting the DS2, and Rogue Squadron and the Millenium Falcon wouldn't have been able to make their attack run on the exposed reactor of the DS2. Keep in mind, however, that DS2's reactor was only exposed because it wasn't finished.

5. It's not Aztecs (GE) vs Conquistadors (UFP). It's Modern US Army (GE) vs a Roman Legion (UFP), only even more heavily biased for the Empire. The Empire has:

25,000 ISDs, as well as many hundreds of thousands to millions of smaller warships.

An economic capacity capable of facilitating the secret construction of the DS2, to a completion of 60% in six months! Keep in mind that the DS2 is, at minimum, 160 kilometers in diameter.

A heavily militarized industrial complex. In other words, combined with the economic capacity, the Empire could churn out warships faster than the Federation could blow them up! And this would allow for a victory by the Empire, even in the miniscule chance that the Federation actually had any possible chance to win.

6. Also, keep in mind that technological superiority only goes so far. I'm not saying that the Federation is more advanced than the Empire (which it isn't). Because even if the Federation's starships were better on an individual basis than the Empire's, the Empire still has far superior strategic mobility with their hyperdrive, and far superior industrial capacity, allowing them to replace warships faster than the Federation is even capable of destroying them.

7. I'm going to say one last thing: I feel sorry for you, that you think that a civilization that has only been a starfaring power for less than four hundred years, and consists of 150 member worlds, could take on a civilization that has existed in various iterations for more than ten thousand years and has more than a million star systems under it's control.

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March 30, 2011 7:34:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Theophantus,
Thanks for the replies guys. @zombie-are you saying that it can be done and that you could actually do it? Do you need any help?

He's certainly saying that it can be done. And he certainly could do it. But I don't think he's offering his assitance for this, as he has his own mod that he's working on.

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March 30, 2011 8:12:34 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Whiskey144,

Quoting Theophantus, reply 10Thanks for the replies guys. @zombie-are you saying that it can be done and that you could actually do it? Do you need any help?
He's certainly saying that it can be done. And he certainly could do it. But I don't think he's offering his assitance for this, as he has his own mod that he's working on.

Whiskey's dead on... It can be done. And I certainly could do it. But I'm not offering and don't really see any point merging two distinct universes together like that let alone the amount of work it would take to reverse engineer what the two mods did and then retrofit it into my process. Sorry if I got your hopes up, was just explaining some of the technical side of merging mods...

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March 30, 2011 8:14:21 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It's more a case of Lucas being a retard than anything.

 

Trek gets a lot of grief for being inconsistent in values, but the Millennium Falcon has an on screen stated top speed of .5 past light speed, while being the fastest ship in the fleet.

 

But, Star Wars fans tend to be overly rabid, and pointing out that all the absurd numbers given later are a vain attempt to not look like a complete fucking retard for making an entire galaxy fit into a few light weeks traveling time as they plod along at horrific speeds whilst blowing up planets for breakfast.

 

Suffice it to say, it never ends well.  Especially when you point out that parsecs are a measurement of distance, not time, then the absurdity really flies.

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March 30, 2011 8:17:16 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Whisky- yes. You are right. Given your analysis, the Federation would lose to the Empire. I simply did not know all of those details. I love both franchises, but I tend to favor Star Trek more because I don't like the "exaggeration factor" of Star Wars. I know Star Trek isn't realistic, but that just makes Star Wars so much less appealing for me because they have "millions of star systems".

But really. You feel sorry for me? Grow up. Your entire post was fine until that childish statement (not including the "I'm going to be gentle with this one" remark). I know this is the internet, but this Sins crowd seems to be more mature than the rest of the forums on here. I thought that was just sad and unnecessary.

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March 30, 2011 8:33:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting hungry_animals,
Whisky- yes. You are right. Given your analysis, the Federation would lose to the Empire. I simply did not know all of those details. I love both franchises, but I tend to favor Star Trek more because I don't like the "exaggeration factor" of Star Wars. I know Star Trek isn't realistic, but that just makes Star Wars so much less appealing for me because they have "millions of star systems".

But really. You feel sorry for me? Grow up. Your entire post was fine until that childish statement (not including the "I'm going to be gentle with this one" remark). I know this is the internet, but this Sins crowd seems to be more mature than the rest of the forums on here. I thought that was just sad and unnecessary.

Well, then I apologize for my remark. It's just that most of the "Federation>Empire" people I've seen/run across tend to be the rabid "TREK=GOD" type. Not the reasonable kind of thing.

Though, I'm curious, why does "millions of star systems" equate to less appeal for you? It seems logical, does it not, that eventually an interstellar power will grow strong enough to encompass a substantial portion of their territory.

Also keep in mind that the Milky Way consists of some 200 billion stars, which, if Generic Star Empire A controls 1 million stars, they control a measly 0.5% of the galaxy's stellar systems. So it's not too unrealistic, IMO.

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March 30, 2011 8:51:58 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Though, I'm curious, why does "millions of star systems" equate to less appeal for you? It seems logical, does it not, that eventually an interstellar power will grow strong enough to encompass a substantial portion of their territory.

 

Critical mass.  An empire that size would collapse the first time a public official failed to suppress that he caught a cold and was indeed a mere mortal, splintering into thousands of pieces in a conflagration of civil wars that make the entire history of war on Earth look like a joke.  Note the utter lack of growth in the size of nations over the last few thousand years despite vast advancement in the ability to control terrain.  The old Roman empire still has us all licked.

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March 30, 2011 8:52:46 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The SW galaxy is actually 120,000 Lys wide while the MW is 100,000 Lys wide. Though while it is unknown how many stars there are in the MW it is est to be at most 400 billion which is the same amount of stars that the SW galaxy has. 70% of the galactic disk in SW has been thoroughly explored. In ST I don't think we've explored even the entirety of the Alpha quadrant and bits and pieces of the others. The MW has potentially 500 mil habitable planets while the SW galaxy has 180 BILLION habitable star systems. Though we could be underestimating that the MW has only 50 billion planets. Even so the SW galaxy is sparsely populated in most regions despite having a population of 100,000,000,000,000,000 (100 quadrillion). The entirety of the ST galaxy is sparsely populated even by SW standards. It's just simply too young. In a few thousand years no doubt they could stand toe to toe if the SW galaxy stops developing. Or has a muli-millenial dark age.

 

The SW galaxy is HIGHLY decentralized and highly organized. Actually the US is a prime example of where you are wrong. You are thinking in terrestrial terms it doesn't compute.

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March 30, 2011 9:23:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The SW galaxy is HIGHLY decentralized and highly organized. Actually the US is a prime example of where you are wrong. You are thinking in terrestrial terms it doesn't compute.

 

That's hilarious, really.  The US has a dysfunctional government on the verge of collapse because it can't even do something as simple as run a balanced budget.  Terrestrial doesn't even come into the picture, it's sheer numbers.  The bigger an entity gets, the less functional it becomes.  The US, thanks to relative efficiency through decentralization needed to survive at the minuscule level of expansiveness that it has, already had a war of secession over a relatively minor cultural difference.  An intergalactic empire encompassing thousands of different species is pure fiction, the United Federation of Planets included.

 

Decentralization only increases the likelihood of fracture over differences by decreasing uniformity.  It just means that when everything goes to shit a lot later than it would have, particular states(worlds would be the likely government levels in the case of SW) will band together and form their own organizations.  The attempt by supporters of the republic to prevent such actions will be why it ends in a war, just like the Civil war here.

 

Centralized powers can never grow to be of any real size, individuals who can preside over large entities are few and far between, it's why the autocrats rarely have more than one or two functional cities while the rest of their domain lives in squalor.

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March 30, 2011 9:38:31 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

i find it dubious that "a single star destroyer could solo the alpha quadrant", considering that in ds9 a fleet of 20 romulan and cardassian ships were able to obliterate 30% of a planet's crust almost instantaneously. teleportation and instant replication of matter is routinely utilized in the st universe, and practically unheard of in sw. if we move beyond the alpha quadrant, nine relatively small bioships destroyed a planet in seconds, a task reserved for massive dedicated superweapons in sw.

An economic capacity capable of facilitating the secret construction of the DS2, to a completion of 60% in six months!

where did you get this? according to wiki, the complete locations reference book says it took two to four years.

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March 31, 2011 12:57:36 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting psychoak,
Critical mass.  An empire that size would collapse the first time a public official failed to suppress that he caught a cold and was indeed a mere mortal, splintering into thousands of pieces in a conflagration of civil wars that make the entire history of war on Earth look like a joke.  Note the utter lack of growth in the size of nations over the last few thousand years despite vast advancement in the ability to control terrain.  The old Roman empire still has us all licked.

Quoting NovaCameron,
The SW galaxy is actually 120,000 Lys wide while the MW is 100,000 Lys wide. Though while it is unknown how many stars there are in the MW it is est to be at most 400 billion which is the same amount of stars that the SW galaxy has. 70% of the galactic disk in SW has been thoroughly explored. In ST I don't think we've explored even the entirety of the Alpha quadrant and bits and pieces of the others. The MW has potentially 500 mil habitable planets while the SW galaxy has 180 BILLION habitable star systems. Though we could be underestimating that the MW has only 50 billion planets. Even so the SW galaxy is sparsely populated in most regions despite having a population of 100,000,000,000,000,000 (100 quadrillion). The entirety of the ST galaxy is sparsely populated even by SW standards. It's just simply too young. In a few thousand years no doubt they could stand toe to toe if the SW galaxy stops developing. Or has a muli-millenial dark age.

The SW galaxy is HIGHLY decentralized and highly organized. Actually the US is a prime example of where you are wrong. You are thinking in terrestrial terms it doesn't compute.

Quoting psychoak,
That's hilarious, really.  The US has a dysfunctional government on the verge of collapse because it can't even do something as simple as run a balanced budget.  Terrestrial doesn't even come into the picture, it's sheer numbers.  The bigger an entity gets, the less functional it becomes.  The US, thanks to relative efficiency through decentralization needed to survive at the minuscule level of expansiveness that it has, already had a war of secession over a relatively minor cultural difference.  An intergalactic empire encompassing thousands of different species is pure fiction, the United Federation of Planets included.

Decentralization only increases the likelihood of fracture over differences by decreasing uniformity.  It just means that when everything goes to shit a lot later than it would have, particular states(worlds would be the likely government levels in the case of SW) will band together and form their own organizations.  The attempt by supporters of the republic to prevent such actions will be why it ends in a war, just like the Civil war here.

Centralized powers can never grow to be of any real size, individuals who can preside over large entities are few and far between, it's why the autocrats rarely have more than one or two functional cities while the rest of their domain lives in squalor.

I'm going to simply point out that if you suspend disbelief for superluminal travel, then you can easily suspend disbelief for an interstellar polity that encompasses a million star systems. That was really the gist of my point, not how "realistic" something would be.

I'll also point out that creating parallel, identical chains-of-command (minus the top ruler-guy/-gal) increases efficiency, and, in this case, decentralization=good.

Quoting a110,
i find it dubious that "a single star destroyer could solo the alpha quadrant", considering that in ds9 a fleet of 20 romulan and cardassian ships were able to obliterate 30% of a planet's crust almost instantaneously. teleportation and instant replication of matter is routinely utilized in the st universe, and practically unheard of in sw. if we move beyond the alpha quadrant, nine relatively small bioships destroyed a planet in seconds, a task reserved for massive dedicated superweapons in sw.

Okay, here's the deal:

1. ISDs are confirmed, through numerous, canon sources, to be capable of melting the upper crust of a planet. To what depth isn't really specified, but it seems logical that it would be a couple of meters at least. And this is for a lone ISD.

2. The episode you refer to is "The Die is Cast", frequently abbreviated "TDiC". The problem is that the visuals do not support the dialogue. There's nothing even remotely resembling the destruction of 30% of the planets crust that's shown on-screen.

Remember, in versus debating, the objective way is to analyze visuals, as if it was a real-life documentary. We see none of the evidence that would indicate massive destruction of the sort that the dialogue would support. Further, the Cardie/Romulan sensors were being spoofed, as they believed that the Founders were on the planet, and they clearly weren't as mere minutes later, the Cardie/Romulan fleet was ambushed and destroyed.

3. Said "9 relatively small bioships", did not, in fact, combine power. There was a single specialised bioship, and the other eight fed it power. Secondly, once again, visuals do not support what the dialogue purports. Because of the objective way to analyse scifi media for vs debating purposes, it is completely acceptable to assume that the characters are, quite possibly, idiots.

Thirdly, Species 8472 is a one-episode wonder. The aren't a factor in an Empire vs Federation war, in the same way that the Dominion or the Borg are not a factor. This is because these powers are either isolated from Feddie territory, are completely isolated from the "dimension" that the Federation exists in (S8472 comes from some technobabble "fluidic space"), they then have no bearing on a hypothetical conflict between the Empire and Federation.

Quoting a110,
where did you get this? according to wiki, the complete locations reference book says it took two to four years.

IIRC, roughly 90% of SW canon says that DS2 was 60% complete in six months. Even if it took between 24 and 48 months, that's still far above what Trek in general, and the Federation in particular, can manage. Remember, the biggest stations in Federation territory are only a couple of kilometers in length and diameter, and not anywhere near the moon-sized battlestation status occupied by the Death Stars.

The advanced that would be required in the fields of power generation, weapons technology, shield and armor design, propulsion, and materials engineering/science, would be staggering for the Federation.

EDIT: I checked the SW wiki page, and the source given for that particular statement was "Star Wars Gamer 9", from a series of magazines published that were about SW gaming of all kinds. I'll simply say that these publications are almost certainly not canon.

Further, after checking up on several sources, I found that the 60% completion in six months figure comes from the canon source, the "Shadows of the Empire" project.

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March 31, 2011 1:16:26 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

ROFL

You guys are bad about thread-jacking.

The guy asked a simple question.

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March 31, 2011 1:30:13 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

LOL Yup ain't it grand?

 

Well we answered it so let the thread die or shall we continue the never ending battle? lol

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March 31, 2011 1:30:33 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Whiskey144,
Remember, in versus debating, the objective way is to analyze visuals, as if it was a real-life documentary.

I would question the wisdom of having a debate about two franchises that have absolutely no basis in reality what so ever. Does objectivity have any meaning when you are especially comparing two different forms of magic? We may as well start discussing if Merlin or Lord Voldemort is the most powerful wizard of all time. Or if Zeus was could defeat Shiva etc.

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March 31, 2011 2:08:34 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ryat,
ROFL

You guys are bad about thread-jacking.

The guy asked a simple question.

True, but then again I've found that this occassionally happens in threads I post in.

Quoting NovaCameron,
LOL Yup ain't it grand?

 

Well we answered it so let the thread die or shall we continue the never ending battle? lol

I vote we let the thread die.

Quoting GoaFan77,
I would question the wisdom of having a debate about two franchises that have absolutely no basis in reality what so ever. Does objectivity have any meaning when you are especially comparing two different forms of magic? We may as well start discussing if Merlin or Lord Voldemort is the most powerful wizard of all time. Or if Zeus was could defeat Shiva etc.

Well, in the case of SW, ST, and quite a few scifi franchises, they have some kind of quantifiable component. For example, SW has multiple Incredible Cross Sections books, though only SW2ICS actually gave meaningful weapons yield, though the ICS for Revenge of the Sith also gave acceleration in meaningful figures.

The same goes with Trek; there are several "technical manuals" that have RL life figures that describe what goes on.

Further, if you analyse something that's pretty much magitech, you don't have to know how or why it works. Just that it does, and with x, y, and z effects and/or parameters.

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