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Star wars vs star trek

By on March 29, 2011 7:27:34 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Theophantus

Join Date 02/2009
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Is it possible to merge some of the Mods together to create star wars vs star trek? Use the federation from SOA and add them to the Requiem mod? There was a mod that did this for Empire at War FOC. For Sins this would be awesome, to see the Feds against the Empire. A true Sci-fi nerds wet dream. Btw I know nothing about Modding and what it would take to do this. Regards Theo
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August 2, 2011 3:05:47 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

If you invent a "new material" using magitech, then no problem.

If you extrapolate out from currently known materials to theoretically possible imaginable ones, none of them could handle the actual temperatures and stresses for the sort of energies and accelerations shown in Star Wars. 

I'm shooting from the cuff here but the faux neutronium would have to be pretty close to the original scifi device "neutronium"--protonic metal formed by energies equivalent to that generated from the gravitational collapse of stars into neutron stars.

Actual neutronium would be ridiculously dense--a tablespoon being close to the mas of the earth or some such thing (it's too late to try math on this).

So Star Wars ships are just "magic" and we leave it at that...or they use metals of ridiculous levels of strength and heat resistance...or they actually use superdense collapsed matter which brings us back to "ridiculous" again.

Consider the energies of weapons and mass/accelerations of ships you've posted previously.  These weapons often bounce off or are harmlessly absorbed by targeted ships in SW--so that has to be some incredible armor and thermal insulation.  What keeps gun barrels that focus this energy from melting?  How do the ships use a mass-light enough structure to make them practical while still retaining enough strength to lunge to percents of light speed with almost no delay?  What contains the thrust or generates the energy for it that possesses the ability to handle the heat and force?

You mentioned antimatter weapons barely scratching or denting SW armor somewhere back there in posts but to do that it would have to be incredibly dense.  What sort of material absorbs a surface detonation of multiple kilotons and isn't affected by the heat or force and isn't even moved off course?  It would have to be pretty darn dense.

As with ST, we're just gonna have to use "movietanium" to support all this.  "Science" isn't going to do it.

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August 2, 2011 9:26:02 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Whiskey, in case you hadn't noticed, I used real science when I put out my numbers, and torpedoes from Star Trek beat out Star Wars turbolasers cold. Also, there are so many holes in the numbers given on your stardestroyer.net that it can't help but be thrown out. But even if you DID use the numbers from there, they still don't come close.

Also, in Star Trek, a single Galaxy class ship went into a star's corona. There's more energy in there than in a fleet of Star Destroyers, and it stayed there for several hours. A single phaser shot was enough to cause a solar flare, which is but one of several on screen things that back those large numbers.

Rebuttal?

((Edit: Grammar fixes))

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August 2, 2011 9:35:15 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

That's also a lot more energy than Star Trek's own weapons, even with your numbers. So why was it ever in danger again?

Comes back down to internal consistency. I like Star Trek as a show, but that they keep trying to give scientific-sounding explanations for everything grates on my nerves, as it boils down to "Whatever we feel like for now".

 

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August 2, 2011 2:09:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinperium,
Actual neutronium would be ridiculously dense--a tablespoon being close to the mas of the earth or some such thing (it's too late to try math on this).

So Star Wars ships are just "magic" and we leave it at that...or they use metals of ridiculous levels of strength and heat resistance...or they actually use superdense collapsed matter which brings us back to "ridiculous" again.

SW sources indicate that the "neutronium" is SW ship armor is present in small nodules distributed throughout the armor plate. While still rather ridiculous........it does reduce the sheer mass requirements. OTOH, given SW's general advancement status, is it so hard to believe that they have unlocked materials science revolutions that allow them to survive what they do?

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Whiskey, in case you hadn't noticed, I used real science when I put out my numbers, and torpedoes from Star Trek beat out Star Wars turbolasers cold. Also, there are so many holes in the numbers given on your stardestroyer.net that it can't help but be thrown out. But even if you DID use the numbers from there, they still don't come close.

O RLY?

Let's ignore the fact that ST tech manuals are non-canon for a moment, shall we? Okay, here we go-

Maximum firepower from the Acclamator-class troop transport main gunnery is 200 gigatons per quad-turbolaser turret. That's given in the EP2 ICS. The ST:TNG tech manual gives photorps as containing 1.5 kilograms of antimatter. Presumably, there's an equal amount of matter, for a total of 3 kg of warhead.

Even assuming the thermodynamically impossible 100% reaction efficiency of photorps, that's a 64.3 megaton detonation.

How does 64.3 megatons, of which around half will strike the target (omnidirectional blast, and all), beat out a 200 gigaton quad-turbolaser shot (50 gigatons PER BARREL)?

WRT holes in SD.Net's numbers.........PROVE IT. That's part of the debating rules, you know. Either back up your claim that SD.Net's numbers are full of holes and must be discarded, or shut up about it.

......

Though I'm curious, how is it that SD.Net's numbers are beat out by STs? Especially considering the official literature?

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Also, in Star Trek, a single Galaxy class ship went into a star's corona.

I fail to see why this is significant, especially when you have provided no numbers.

Quoting Kitkun,
There's more energy in there than in a fleet of Star Destroyers, and it stayed there for several hours.

Numbers?

Quoting RedneckRapture,
A single phaser shot was enough to cause a solar flare, which is but one of several on screen things that back those large numbers.

Seeing as we haven't got a clue how one would go about doing so, you can't attach numbers to the phaser shot->solar flare incident, making it quite useless.

It doesn't help your case that phasers are generally considered to be chain reaction weapons; DET doesn't work for vaporization because the surrounding materials are completely unaffected. Oh yeah, and the flash-steamed human corpse would flash-steam-cook whoever shot them if at close range.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
which is but one of several on screen things that back those large numbers.

Evidence? More of these rumored "large numbers"? Math?!

Quoting Kitkun,
I like Star Trek as a show, but that they keep trying to give scientific-sounding explanations for everything grates on my nerves, as it boils down to "Whatever we feel like for now".

THIS. This is one of the reasons I rather dislike Star Trek at times.

The other mainly being that I strongly disagree with Rodenberry's pro-humanist, pro-atheist viewpoint in TNG. But it's not really there in TOS, and he was dead by the time of DS9 and Voyager.

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August 2, 2011 2:27:26 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Just going to throw out SFDebris' site as it's an excellent set of reviews of Star Trek.

 

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August 2, 2011 3:01:41 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Whiskey, in case you hadn't noticed, I used real science when I put out my numbers, and torpedoes from Star Trek beat out Star Wars turbolasers cold. Also, there are so many holes in the numbers given on your stardestroyer.net that it can't help but be thrown out. But even if you DID use the numbers from there, they still don't come close.

Quoting Whiskey144,
How does 64.3 megatons, of which around half will strike the target (omnidirectional blast, and all), beat out a 200 gigaton quad-turbolaser shot (50 gigatons PER BARREL)?

These numbers don't lie, but RedneckRapture ignores them, just one more example of my previous statement on Star Trek vs. Star Wars debates.

Quoting Zeta1127,
Some people are such devoted fanboys to one universe or the other that they can't even respect the other universe.

As Whiskey said, prove to us that stardestroyer.net is wrong.

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August 2, 2011 3:22:58 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Theophantus,
The mods coming along nicely thanks everyone. I've got 9 capital ships in per race now. Thanks to Sinperium I've got the basics sorted and understand the principles of modding sins a lot better. My question is how do I take ship meshes and textures out of X3 Terran Conflict and import them into Sins. I have the XSI tool.

I would ask the 7DS chaps, some of the Atlantian Ships are from X3. Also does this mean that you are planning an X3 race(s)?

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August 2, 2011 3:49:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@Whiskey

Small amounts of neutronium seeded throughout superlarge structures still equal large amounts --I'm sure a tablespoon is in there and we're back to "the earth's mass" again.  That's no moon.

I completely believe that in future--if we survive--mankind (or Jedi/Sith kind) will discover and invent new materials.

But elements in our universe are predictable and follow a mathematical structure.  Their existence can be mathematically calculated and their properties as well.  Nothing we can imagine comes close to the things SW needs.

Remember, our current metals were produced by first generation supermassive star collapses--that's what it took to create the metals we know and can theorize now.  Star Wars would have to discover energies superior to those provided by these stars to create new classes of matter.

The one exception would be through the creation of meta materials--which is taking existing materials and blending or restructuring them.  This shows a lot of promise in many areas but because meta materials start with existing matter they aren't going to miraculously be transmutable to materials that can ignore the heat of stars, scoff at matter-antimatter reactions and be impervious to kinetic energies generated by percent light-speed impacts with other masses.

You can reach to dark matter and the like but it is thought presently (if it exists at all) to be very light in mass relative to normal matter.

It has to be assumed that artificial gravity compensators exist in SW because the crews would be smears on the wall if they didn't.  You can assume the structures are reinforced by "conductable emanations" from these and then Star Wars ships can be less mass--except that"impervious-to-all-but-ridiculous-levels-of-energy" thing rears it's head again at their hull strength.

The real weak point of the SW energies and hulls--despite their harmonized constancy in the canon after the movies--is that metals and energy just don't work the way they are shown.

Gazillajoule blasts hit a hull and wink out with nary a scratch but a downed alliance fighter can blast and shake the entire structure.  Small internal explosions blast this same hull plating into space while still leaving internal structures partly in place.  Any explosion breaking from behind this plating would vaporize everything behind the plate.

This is the area that is just like Star Trek--we just have to "believe".

The big difference is there have been 617 Star Trek universe episodes made over generations by different directors and studios.  In addition, there are 11 more movies also varying as the episodes.  of course they lack scientific consistency and I posit that Star Wars does too, it just has had less material to demonstrate its inconsistencies.

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August 2, 2011 4:03:13 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinperium,
I posit that Star Wars does too, it just has had less material to demonstrate its inconsistencies.

I would actually posit that SW inconsistencies are less, due primarily to the fact that SW has an actual continuity hierarchy.

ST, OTOH, lacks such a thing, with it primarily being "ST continuity=TV/movies".

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August 2, 2011 4:44:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@ Velisx, thanks i might get some sense over there.

 

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August 2, 2011 6:01:53 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Whiskey144,


WRT holes in SD.Net's numbers.........PROVE IT. That's part of the debating rules, you know. Either back up your claim that SD.Net's numbers are full of holes and must be discarded, or shut up about it.

Since the numbers in question here are turbolaser numbers, I'll point out two very big holes in his numbers. One, he does not know the porosity of the asteroids. Two, he does not know the composition of the asteroids.

In other words, we know many asteroids are porous. That means significantly less energy would be needed to vaporize them. Also, asteroids have many different compositions, thanks to asteroids being made of different metals or rocks and in different proportions. Most asteroids in space are made of carbon (75%). The next highest proportion is made of silicates. Only about 7% are made of nickel or iron, which he bases his numbers on.

In other words, his numbers are bogus.

Quoting Whiskey144,

How does 64.3 megatons, of which around half will strike the target (omnidirectional blast, and all), beat out a 200 gigaton quad-turbolaser shot (50 gigatons PER BARREL)?

I'll repeat my first post since you seem to have missed it.

"In the TNG technical manual, a figure of 1.5kg of antimatter is given as the maximum warhead material of a photon torpedo. (pg. 129) Using standard physics calculations a direct 1:1 explosion would equal to about 64.4 megatons. Warhead materials are however premixed to achieve the level of destructive force of an antimatter pod rupture containing 100 cubic meters of antideuterium. (pg. 69) Antimatter is stored as liquid or slush on starships. (pg. 68) The density of liquid antideuterium is around 160 kg per cubic meter. According to this comparison the high annihilation rate energy release would be comparable to about 690 gigatons. When you calculate it based off how we measure modern megatons (1 megaton=4,184 terajoules) gives us a total of 2,886,960,000 terajoules. The TNG photon torpedo has a yield of only 18.5 isotons. That's 156,051,891.892 terajoules per isoton. A modern yield photon torpedo does 25 isotons, resulting in 3,901,297,297.3 terajoules on target per torpedo. A quantum torpedo does 50+ isotons in damage, which is 7,802,594,594.6+ terajoules on target. A class 6 high yield torpedo does 200 isotons, which is 31,210,378,378.4 terajoules. A Borg multi-kinetic neutronic mine has a yield of 5 million isotons. That is 780,259,459,460,000 terajoules."

In what universe does a 200 gigaton shot outdo a 690 gigaton shot (18.5 isoton photon torp)? Much less a 932.43 gigaton shot (25 isoton photon torp)? Or a 1,864.86+ gigaton shot (50+ isoton quantum torp)? Or a 7,459.46 (200 isoton high yield photon torp)? And photon torpedoes can be fired in volleys of five to ten! That's a combined force of 9,324.3 gigatons.

Unless I'm mistaken, that would mean...*gasp*...one volley of standard torpedoes would equal 46.6215 quad turbolasers, which is 186 turbolasers. And that can come out of a ship no bigger than the Falcon. And that's according to your turbolaser numbers which can't be substantiated.

And aside from that, there are the unconventional warfare abilities that Star Trek has that Star Wars has no shield against. Examples include:

Timeships: One was used in Year of Hell in Voyager. It was out of phase with the normal space time continuum, making it immune to weapons fire, and literally erased its targets from history.

Red Matter: What good is having your planet guarded if a single small ship can race in, drop off a load of red matter, and pop up a black hole that sucks the planet in?

Founders: These shapeshifters would be able to impersonate anyone or anything with only the, now rare, force users in Star Wars able to detect them. Excellent for sabotaging or just taking ships over.

Transporters: The ability to beam to anywhere on a planet, or beam armed torpedoes onto warships, would be a definite advantage, as would beaming out important things such as power cores.

Self Replicating Mines: Each as strong as a photon torpedo of the time, that is to say, 25 isotons. Destroy one and it's neighbors replicate another in its place almost immediately. They also are programmed to swarm detonate and can cloak!

Star Trek Cloaking Devices: Undetectable even to Star Trek Sensors in their later stages, and some models even allow you to pass through matter entirely. Excellent for hit and runs. Advanced Romulan models allow you to stay cloaked while firing your weapons.

 

 

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August 2, 2011 9:33:30 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RedneckRapture,
"In the TNG technical manual, a figure of 1.5kg of antimatter is given as the maximum warhead material of a photon torpedo. (pg. 129) Using standard physics calculations a direct 1:1 explosion would equal to about 64.4 megatons. Warhead materials are however premixed to achieve the level of destructive force of an antimatter pod rupture containing 100 cubic meters of antideuterium. (pg. 69) Antimatter is stored as liquid or slush on starships. (pg. 68) The density of liquid antideuterium is around 160 kg per cubic meter. According to this comparison the high annihilation rate energy release would be comparable to about 690 gigatons. When you calculate it based off how we measure modern megatons (1 megaton=4,184 terajoules) gives us a total of 2,886,960,000 terajoules. The TNG photon torpedo has a yield of only 18.5 isotons. That's 156,051,891.892 terajoules per isoton. A modern yield photon torpedo does 25 isotons, resulting in 3,901,297,297.3 terajoules on target per torpedo. A quantum torpedo does 50+ isotons in damage, which is 7,802,594,594.6+ terajoules on target. A class 6 high yield torpedo does 200 isotons, which is 31,210,378,378.4 terajoules. A Borg multi-kinetic neutronic mine has a yield of 5 million isotons. That is 780,259,459,460,000 terajoules."

Define modern. Show your math more clearly; it's barely legible in the Wall-o-Text you gave. Use proper units; an "isoton" is a quantified as either 1 ton TNT equivalent (IRL), or is a meaningless term of measurement that gives a simplistic measure between photorps and q-torps.

Provide evidence of the TNG photorps being "only 18.5 isotons", as opposed to 25 isotons.  Provide evidence that the 18.5 "isoton" photorp equals 690 gigatons. Provide visual analysis of ST footage providing such high numbers in a consistent manner.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
And that's according to your turbolaser numbers which can't be substantiated.

I don't need to substantiate the 200 gigaton quad turbolaser figure, as it's in the ICS books, which are canon.

SW canon is very clear.......and the movies never contradict the ICSes, as the ICS books are derived from the films.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Timeships: One was used in Year of Hell in Voyager. It was out of phase with the normal space time continuum, making it immune to weapons fire, and literally erased its targets from history.

Provide evidence that 24th century Federation has access to "Timeships". Provide evidence that other contemporary powers which do would be willing to aid the Federation.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Red Matter: What good is having your planet guarded if a single small ship can race in, drop off a load of red matter, and pop up a black hole that sucks the planet in?

Provide evidence that Red Matter is not part of an alternate continuity Star Trek, as the newest ST movie from which Red Matter is taken is highly inconsistent with the shows. Provide evidence that Red Matter is a cheaply and easily producible weaponized material. Provide evidence that Federation starships can, in a timely manner, reach each and every single Imperial world to deploy Red Matter. Provide evidence that Red Matter would penetrate Imperial planetary shields.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Founders: These shapeshifters would be able to impersonate anyone or anything with only the, now rare, force users in Star Wars able to detect them. Excellent for sabotaging or just taking ships over.

Provide evidence that the Founders would aid the Federation. Provide evidence that Imperial bioscanners would not detect the difference between a genuine Imperial officer and a changeling. Provide evidence that the Founders would have the technical knowledge to sabotage an Imperial warship.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Transporters: The ability to beam to anywhere on a planet, or beam armed torpedoes onto warships, would be a definite advantage, as would beaming out important things such as power cores.

Provide evidence that transporters are able to penetrate the high-density, exotic-material SW ship armor. Provide evidence that transporters can beam through Imperial shield systems. Provide evidence that Federation sensor systems can penetrate the exotic-material/high-density SW ship armors.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Self Replicating Mines: Each as strong as a photon torpedo of the time, that is to say, 25 isotons. Destroy one and it's neighbors replicate another in its place almost immediately. They also are programmed to swarm detonate and can cloak!

Provide evidence that these are usable in an offensive campaign. Provide evidence that they would be useful in any other situation except a defensive one. Provide evidence that Imperial sensors would not detect the mines. Provide evidence that the bull-rush tactic, wherein one rushes the minefield and ignores losses (as X amount of mine detonations creates a hole in the field, but anything less than that will not).

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Star Trek Cloaking Devices: Undetectable even to Star Trek Sensors in their later stages, and some models even allow you to pass through matter entirely. Excellent for hit and runs. Advanced Romulan models allow you to stay cloaked while firing your weapons.

Provide evidence that ST cloaks are available in large numbers to the Federation. Provide evidence that the Romulans would provide aid to the Federation. Provide evidence that Imperial sensors would be fooled by cloaking devices available to the Federation. Provide evidence that being able to pass through matter entirely, while being unable to engage and/or drive off an enemy ship is a useful aspect. Provide evidence that Federation vessels have the endurance and FTL speed to rapidly cover Imperial territory in hit and run raids.

...........

Seems like you've made a lot of claims, very few of which will be able to be backed up.

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August 2, 2011 10:21:31 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Let's see here, the torps, figures were stated in cannon, and given the number of gigatons stated, which were gotten from memory alpha, it's easy enough to do. Even an elementary school student can put those numbers into a calculator and figure it out. Simply multiply the numbers given.

A bomb with 90 isotons of enriched ultiritium had the explosion radius of 800 kilometers. Such a bomb was used to blow up a facility in Cardassian space in DS9. Also, in Scorpion, the Borg wanted to modify a class 6 high yield topedo to deal out the same force as a multi-kinetic neutrino mine, 5 million isotons, and its force would be enough to effect an entire solar system, the shockwave distributing nanites out to five light years. Enough proof there.

For your turbolaser numbers, I was refering to the numbers given on sd.net. Next time I will be more specific.

Timeship in Year of Hell was acting in defense of its people's empire. If the Galactic Empire threatened them, it would start deleting. Also, the Timeship Relativity goes back and forth in time at will. Then there's the Temporal Cold War in Enterprise. So time travel is widely used in Star Trek.

The Red Matter was originally used IN the original continuity, the black hole sent Spock into the past. Remember, to stop that whole supernova?

Transporters only need a thin opening to gain entry into a ship, and Star Destroyers have large hangars on the bottom of their ships. In addition, since a single torpedo would punch a hole in the Star Destroyer's armor, and their shields are SO EASY to take down, it's a simple thing to do.

Minefield can be deployed around planets taken over and crucial points, and since they replicate in a second, maybe two, bull rushing would mean MASSIVE casualties and a failed attempt.

Cloaking device, time to be captain obvious: Defiant has a cloak. Klingons, who are allies of the Federation, have cloaks on all their ships. Romulans would come to the Federation's aid, like in the Dominion War, they have cloaking devices.

Hit and run raids, unlike with the Empire and Star Wars, Star Trek ships CAN enter warp in a gravity well. Also, the Federation has transwarp technology and quantum slipstream technology, both of which are much faster than hyperspace travel.

(Edit: Grammar)

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August 2, 2011 11:18:14 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Let's see here, the torps, figures were stated in cannon, and given the number of gigatons stated, which were gotten from memory alpha, it's easy enough to do. Even an elementary school student can put those numbers into a calculator and figure it out. Simply multiply the numbers given.

I said define your math more clearly, not parrot it back and insult me by saying an elementary school student could do it. It's very, very difficult to work with big numbers that are submerged in a jumble of idiocy.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
A bomb with 90 isotons of enriched ultiritium had the explosion radius of 800 kilometers. Such a bomb was used to blow up a facility in Cardassian space in DS9. Also, in Scorpion, the Borg wanted to modify a class 6 high yield topedo to deal out the same force as a multi-kinetic neutrino mine, 5 million isotons, and its force would be enough to effect an entire solar system, the shockwave distributing nanites out to five light years. Enough proof there.

Cardassian facility isn't valid; the facility certainly isn't going to be inert, and part of that detonation would certainly be from the station's facilities.

WRT the Borg.......well, you shot yourself in the foot there. They're the Borg, and happen to be leagues ahead of the Federation. You'll also note that scientific stupidity of shockwaves in space, especially the nonsenicalness of a superluminally-propagating shockwave.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
For your turbolaser numbers, I was refering to the numbers given on sd.net. Next time I will be more specific.

They're called assumptions for a reason. I haven't looked over the page in a while, but I'd wager that Mike Wong bases his assumptions on actual cosmological theory.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Timeship in Year of Hell was acting in defense of its people's empire. If the Galactic Empire threatened them, it would start deleting. Also, the Timeship Relativity goes back and forth in time at will. Then there's the Temporal Cold War in Enterprise. So time travel is widely used in Star Trek.

This is about the Empire taking on the Federation, during the 24th century. Not anything else. So this entire paragraph is a distraction from the actual topic.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
The Red Matter was originally used IN the original continuity, the black hole sent Spock into the past. Remember, to stop that whole supernova?

There's the whole issue of the Red Matter movie being set pre-TOS, IIRC, and TOS-onward never used phasers as point defense guns. You'd think that they'd keep with continuity, but nooooo, they have to go and screw with it. Your problem, not mine.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Transporters only need a thin opening to gain entry into a ship, and Star Destroyers have large hangars on the bottom of their ships. In addition, since a single torpedo would punch a hole in the Star Destroyer's armor, and their shields are SO EASY to take down, it's a simple thing to do.

Provide evidence that transporters can penetrate Imperial shielding. Provide evidence that transporters can penetrate Imperial starship armor. Provide evidence that Federation sensors technology will discern the vital/weak locations through Imperial starship armor and/or shielding and/or exotic radiations from the hypermatter reactors.

Provide evidence that single torpedo would defeat Imperial starship armor. Provide evidence that Imperial shields are easily downed.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Minefield can be deployed around planets taken over and crucial points, and since they replicate in a second, maybe two, bull rushing would mean MASSIVE casualties and a failed attempt.

Provide evidence for replication times. Provide evidence that the mines would be easily and rapidly deployable.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Cloaking device, time to be captain obvious: Defiant has a cloak. Klingons, who are allies of the Federation, have cloaks on all their ships. Romulans would come to the Federation's aid, like in the Dominion War, they have cloaking devices.

Provide evidence that the Klingons will aid the Federation besides the nebulous statement of "the Klingons are allies of the Federation". Provide evidence that the Romulans would aid the Federation, besides the nebulous statement of "Romulans would come to the Federation's aid, like in the Dominion War". Provide evidence that the original, cloaked USS Defiant was not destroyed during the Dominion War. Provide evidence that Trek-style cloaking devices will be unseen to Imperial sensor systems.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Hit and run raids, unlike with the Empire and Star Wars, Star Trek ships CAN enter warp in a gravity well. Also, the Federation has transwarp technology and quantum slipstream technology, both of which are much faster than hyperspace travel.

Provide evidence that hyperdrive is incapable of being initiate in a gravity well. Provide evidence that the Federation has working transwarp technology. Provide evidence that the Federation has working quantum slipstream technology. Provide evidence that both aforementioned technologies are highly reliable. Provide evidence that both aforementioned technologies are widely distributed aboard Federation vessels. Provide evidence that both aforementioned technologies are faster than hyperdrive.

............

You know, you've failed to provide anything of substance, and 90% of my demands for evidence (in all likelihood 100%) have not been answered.

You fail at debating.

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August 3, 2011 12:16:44 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

We would be better off keeping personal insults out of this. I apologize for insulting you with the elementary student comment. Back to the argument.

I have provided proof. I'm not going to repeat myself, so for any further proof you require, I will refer you to series and to memory-alpha.org since both state the same things I have put here. For things not in the series, I will explain here.

Red matter was originally used in the main continuum, it created a black hole, which sucked Spock AND Nero back in time. Then JJ Abrams made his own little universe. That's, as you say, our problem.

For cloaking devices in the Federation, I refer you, once more, to the series, in particular to "All Good Things..." where a Federation ship decloaks and engages a Klingon ship. Also there is the attempt at cloaking that Riker was a part of, that was in the TNG series. The Federation HAS been working on cloaking technology. It is sitting in the wings, waiting for the dissolution of the treaty with the Romulans, as is proven by "All Good Things..."

The Klingons are in an alliance and are ALWAYS chafing for honorable battle, do you REALLY believe they would stay out of a war that was so big?

The Romulans act for what is their best interest. A victorious Empire is not in their best interest.

As for hyperspace not happening in a gravity well, calculations are made so when you jump to hyperspace you don't run into gravity wells, gravity well projectors on interdictor cruisers are used to keep people from escaping into hyperspace, and you must be a certain distance from a gravity well (planet, star, whatever) to enter hyperspace. Star Trek, however, has done it several times.

And I have intentionally left the Borg out of the argument. The Borg would consider the Empire to be 'unworthy of assimilation' and would ignore the Empire, or destroy it very quickly if it was attacked by an Imperial Fleet. That doesn't make for a fun discussion.

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August 3, 2011 1:05:46 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RedneckRapture,
to memory-alpha.org since both state the same things I have put here

Non-canon source.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
I will refer you to series

Dig up your own evidence.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Red matter was originally used in the main continuum, it created a black hole, which sucked Spock AND Nero back in time. Then JJ Abrams made his own little universe. That's, as you say, our problem.

Evidence?

Quoting RedneckRapture,
For cloaking devices in the Federation, I refer you, once more, to the series, in particular to "All Good Things..." where a Federation ship decloaks and engages a Klingon ship. Also there is the attempt at cloaking that Riker was a part of, that was in the TNG series.

Evidence?

You know, like screencaps, the script, things like that.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
The Klingons are in an alliance and are ALWAYS chafing for honorable battle, do you REALLY believe they would stay out of a war that was so big?

The grunts are all for honourable battle. It's the commanders, who are halfway intelligent, who concede practicality before honor. The Federation is generally considered to be capable of wiping the floor with the Klingon Empire.

A foe which crushes the Federation like a bug can not help but make, at the very least, a neutral party of the Klingon Empire.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
The Romulans act for what is their best interest. A victorious Empire is not in their best interest.

How is this the case? The Empire is only engaging the Federation in our "scenario". The Romulans are either a non-entity, or are dealing with the to-be-victorious Empire for better technology that far outpaces the Federation's.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
As for hyperspace not happening in a gravity well, calculations are made so when you jump to hyperspace you don't run into gravity wells, gravity well projectors on interdictor cruisers are used to keep people from escaping into hyperspace, and you must be a certain distance from a gravity well (planet, star, whatever) to enter hyperspace.

This is a safety measure. It is quite possible to initiate hyperjumps from within gravity wells, IIRC, and for hyperjumps to cross gravity wells. It simply requires the safeties to be disabled.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
And I have intentionally left the Borg out of the argument. The Borg would consider the Empire to be 'unworthy of assimilation' and would ignore the Empire, or destroy it very quickly if it was attacked by an Imperial Fleet. That doesn't make for a fun discussion.

Not sure how that works, when the Empire at its height controlled some 50 million star systems.......rather than the several hundred thousand worlds of the Borg. If anything, the sheer industrial might of the Empire would allow it to grind down the Borg.......this is, of course, ignoring the ship-to-ship superiority of the Empire.

Of course, you have yet to provide evidence that the Borg would consider the Empire "unworthy of assimilation", or that the Borg even have the means to assault Imperial territory.

...........

Once again, no substance. No solid evidence. Right now, the burden of proof is on you. That means you have to dig up your own evidence. So don't refer me to episodes; screencap them for evidence, or get ahold of the script for evidence!

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August 3, 2011 1:48:17 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Errr...Whiskey...you "provide evidence" line is not helpful. "Prove what I think is wrong and if you can't then what you think is.".

Your presumption that his assumptions are incorrect are in fact often your own assumptions.

Neither you nor he "know" whether or not a transporter could penetrate Imperial hulls.  You don't know their actual density or composition--it's impossible to know.

You don't know that cloaking devices aren't readily available to the Federation--they are certainly pervasive amongst Klingons, Romulans and many others and its a bit absurd to just dismiss them.  In fact, the whole reason phasic cloaking and "normal" cloaking aren't used by the Federation is becasue it was part of a treaty where the Federation agreed not to equip them--they certainly know how to do so and I imagine the Imperial juggernaut showing up might modify that agreement.

Imperial bioscanners (how its determined all ships have them I have no idea) can't be proclaimed effective on every life form in the ST universe any more than they can be claimed completely ineffective on them.  No one knows.

As to the turbolasers/photon torpedoes--I don't know the source of the figures but assuming they are correct he has a point mathematically.  Flapping arms and proclaiming, "Non Sequitor!" isn't a rebuttal.

My point is that all of your assumptions are accepted by you--whether proven or not and all you disagree with are rejected--whether by proof or assumption.  It comes across that if its SW and no one knows for sure, assumptions can be accepted but if its reversed, they are not acceptable.

A foe which crushes the Federation like a bug can not help but make, at the very least, a neutral party of the Klingon Empire.

...assumption--on both counts.

 And "screencap and show me scripts or it didn't happen!" is just  juvenile.

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August 3, 2011 2:20:36 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinperium,
Errr...Whiskey...you "provide evidence" line is not helpful. "Prove what I think is wrong and if you can't then what you think is.".

From my point of view, the debate is already decided; the Empire squishes the Federation like a bug. Hence my lines of provide evidence.

Quoting Sinperium,
Your presumption that his assumptions are incorrect are in fact often your own assumptions.

Reference the tech manuals; 1.5 kilograms of antimatter, with an equal amount of matter, is a 64.3 megaton blast. This is arrayed against 200 gigatons/turret/shot for a transport.

Hard to disagree with the numbers.

Quoting Sinperium,
Neither you nor he "know" whether or not a transporter could penetrate Imperial hulls.  You don't know their actual density or composition--it's impossible to know.

ST continuity is quite clear; transporters often have issues beaming through high-density or exotic-composition materials. They are also very vulnerable to various radiations, and even have purpose-built jammers. I do not think it unreasonable to assume that the immense spectrum of ECM/EWAR that the Empire uses would jam transporters be sheer coincidence, primarily due to the vulnerability of transporters to 501 different interference sources.

Quoting Sinperium,
You don't know that cloaking devices aren't readily available to the Federation--they are certainly pervasive amongst Klingons, Romulans and many others and its a bit absurd to just dismiss them.  In fact, the whole reason phasic cloaking and "normal" cloaking aren't used by the Federation is becasue it was part of a treaty where the Federation agreed not to equip them--they certainly know how to do so and I imagine the Imperial juggernaut showing up might modify that agreement.

Given the Federation's more peaceful stance, I think it's far more likely that the Federation has very few cloaking devices of any kind; I'll further note that, as far as is presented in the shows, only one (1!) phasic cloak was every constructed. That they know how to equip Romulan cloaks (remember, the USS Defiant used a Romulan cloaking device!) to their ships, and probably have a couple Romulan and/or Klingon examples for study........but for use?

I find it unlikely that they have any; even if they do have some in storage, then said cloaking devices are still not equipped to vessels, and are probably old examples, that will take significant systems integration work.

Quoting Sinperium,
Imperial bioscanners (how its determined all ships have them I have no idea) can't be proclaimed effective on every life form in the ST universe any more than they can be claimed completely ineffective on them.  No one knows.

My point with the bioscanners isn't that they're effective on all ST lifeforms or not; it's that they'll be able to differentiate between "human" and "not-human". That's it. And it's not very hard to do so. This is helped by the fact that somewhere around 99+% of all Imperial naval captains are human.

Quoting Sinperium,
As to the turbolasers/photon torpedoes--I don't know the source of the figures but assuming they are correct he has a point mathematically.  Flapping arms and proclaiming, "Non Sequitor!" isn't a rebuttal.

His numbers are broken, because he assumes that the photon torpedo warhead is kept in liquid form........and there is no evidence that that is the case. While I admit that I have used the tech manuals for comparative purposes- it's always been with the (admittedly unspoken) understanding that the TMs are non-canon for Star Trek.

Which, incidentally, means his entire premise is screwed.

Quoting Sinperium,
My point is that all of your assumptions are accepted by you--whether proven or not and all you disagree with are rejected--whether by proof or assumption.  It comes across that if its SW and no one knows for sure, assumptions can be accepted but if its reversed, they are not acceptable.

The history of the SWvsST debate goes back a long while, and the conclusions reached by the majority of the debaters is that, as SWvsST usually means "Empire vs the Federation who wins?", the Empire crushes the Federation in an open conflict.

But that's not even the best part, IMO. The Federation is so galatically insignificant that the Empire would never bother to invade it in the first place. Lulzy, innit.

Quoting Sinperium,
...assumption--on both counts.

But a reasonable one; the Federation is, AFAIK, considered to be militarily superior on a qualitative (ship/ship) measure, to the point that a Federation/Klingon war would leave both parties severely weakened. Any opponent which does the equivalent of "sneeze at Federation, watches mushroom cloud" is going to make the Klingons very, very open to either being a neutral party WRT the war, or to actually side with the opponent (in this case, the Empire).

Quoting Sinperium,
 And "screencap and show me scripts or it didn't happen!" is just  juvenile.

No, it's not. He's making claims. By debating etiquette and rules, he is supposed to provide the supporting evidence. Just referencing an episode isn't supporting evidence, it's hearsay. How am I supposed to know he's telling the truth, unless he provides a source, like analyzed screencaps or the scripts, and a link to the sources for said 'caps and/or scripts.

There's a saying; "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"; while you might say his claims aren't exactly extraordinary, they do require proof of some kind.

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August 3, 2011 8:32:51 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

A fight between the empire and the federation go alot further than merely crunching ship and gear stats in any case.

Unless you want to magically transport the respective factions entire military might to a battle arena you have to take into consideration the universe they each exist in and their respective problems. The empire beeing a hyge tyrant need to have a military presence to subdue the worlds under its controll, they are also currently engaged in hostilities against the rebellion/alliance, they need to keep most of their armade tied up  with what its currently dooing or they will have a full scale uprising on their hands. That for one cannot be ignored. The empire has no allies, they just have themselves and a 900 thousand unruly worlds that would like nothing better than to regain their freedom. The federation on the other hand exists in a universe with other powers close at hand, they are in an alliance with the klingons, and the klingons would most likely be pulled into the war. A war would not start with the empire steamrolling the federation, it would have a first encounter, and then it could go alot of ways, some involving diplomacy, some skirmishing, and some a buildup of forces. In any case it would not be a mortal combat fight with each character respresenting the massed military presence of each faction.  You also need to take into considerations the romulans, because there is a very strong chanse that they would realize that the empire means to controll any world -dont need great intell to come to that conclusion, and that once the federation and klingons fall they will be next.  

Also the fight will most likely be in federation space simply because of the fact that the empire would be the aggressive part with the federatition taking a defensive role. (atleast in the start)

After reading abouth 50 star wars novels, watching all the movies/cartoons and watching all star trek shows out i must say imo that it seems quite clear that the federation has more advanced technology, they just need a screwdriver and a few hours to do almost anything lol. In star wars they have to make do with what they have, they dont have a macgyver sadly. But they do have a vast military with great monstrous ships and the will to use them.

Who would win, impossibly to say. None of you are military analysts specialicing in predicting outcomes, and even not the very best military analyst would attempt to predict anything in this case given that we hardly know anything abouth the respective factions science level. For us its just magitech. We may be able to guess what one thing would mean for another and how it would pan out but we dont know, its a huge void filled with some lights here and there. Good luck navigating through it. So why dont you just agree that the outcome would be impossibly to predict accuratly, sure whiskey can say that he think the empire has a better chanse and zeta and redneck can believe that the federation has a higher chanse but that should be it.

 

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August 3, 2011 8:53:05 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I never said the Federation even had a chance, based on Whiskey's numbers, I see very little hope of a Federation victory. As much as I like the Federation, they just don't have the technology or manpower to fight the Empire.

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August 3, 2011 10:20:39 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Malanthor,

You're echoing what most Star Wars fans think. I like Star Wars, it's very entertaining, just as Star Trek is, but Star Trek figures things out. Star Wars hasn't advanced its technology noticeably for a couple of thousand years.

Zeta, Star Trek is much more advanced than Star Wars. The technology, energy, and capabilities shown far outstrip Star Wars, which acts as if it were a space version of World War 2. If it where a fight between TOS and Star Wars, it'd be up in the air. But against TNG (Modern) Trek, no contest, Federation hands down. As for Whiskey's numbers, I'll be addressing that to him directly.

Whiskey, I would ask this of you: Can YOU prove, on screen, that turbolasers have the power you claim? Can you prove that their hulls are as strong as you claim? From what I've seen, there's plenty of evidence showing they are not as powerful as claimed, and their hulls, since they take damage from those shots, obviously aren't that strong as well.

I will not be on for a few days due to final exams. When I get back, I will find and read your responses, so it won't be till Friday.

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August 3, 2011 11:44:21 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

This thread is hilarious. Did not read it in its entirety, only first few pages and then last 2, but it seems that Whiskey is hellbent about proving StarWars universe being "superior" than StarTrek universe. Or is it about Galactic Empire being superior to ST´s Federation? Cause the thread name says SW vs ST, not GW vs Feds. Anyway its quite funny, youre trying to argument each other using "math", when clearly tech in both universes is technobabble and BS, moreso in SW than ST, i suppose.

I think by claiming SW would beat ST (or vice-versa), youre just claiming that your universe of choice is more ridiculous than the other, when it comes to the "science" background.

Anyway, these pointless arguments clearly entertain you, so whatever floats your boat. I would be lying, if i said, it was not fun to read, but i would still prefer, if you tried to explain, why you prefer either universe, there is shitload of reasons why people love or hate them and i would be curious about yours. 

Personally i am Trek person, probably cause of the fact, it was always mainly about various spaceships and races for me, with SW you have your good Rebels/Jedis against  evil Imperials/Siths with all their X-Wings, StarDestroyers and DeathStars....

StarTrek factions are much more interesting and "grey" to me, having various characteristics and motives to their actions.., and having far more interesting ship models> ,Constitution, Excelsior, Miranda, Akira, Defiant, Sovereign, Nebula, Intrepid, Romulan DDeridex, Klingon BoP,Vorcha,NeghVar, Cardassian Hideki and Galor, JemHadar Bugship and Battlecruiser, Borg cube, etc... thats just few of the most famous ones, that IMHO shit on any SW model. 

The inconsistency within ST technobabble might be annoying to me as well. but i was always more sensitive toward the inconsistency in stellar cartography or to visual errors in CGI/redresses of the same model.

Saying all that, i certainly love StarWars and hold them in high regard, no matter the composition of the ISD hull or yield of the turbolasers...but i think those 617 episodes of Trek create more appealing universe to me than few, although brilliant, SW movies.

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August 3, 2011 12:31:03 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The whole point was i only asked one simple question.

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August 3, 2011 12:49:29 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Star Wars hasn't advanced its technology noticeably for a couple of thousand years.

I see people say this, and it makes me sigh, because it is wrong. There have been significant advancements in Star Wars, from the miniaturization of shielding systems and hyperdrives to the recharge time of turbolasers (see the Hapans in comparison to the NR/Imperial Remnant for a difference in such) to superior shielding. This doesn't even take into account ship manufacture, production, and design and civilian technology advancements. In the KotOR era, shielded fighters with hyperspace abilities were a pipe dream at best (the Ebon Hawk was a freighter, before you ask) and ships like the Venator and Victory Star Destroyers appearing at that time would have been akin to being a combination of the Executor line and the Eclipse as they would be virtually unbeatable.

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August 3, 2011 1:10:34 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Malanthor,
A fight between the empire and the federation go alot further than merely crunching ship and gear stats in any case.

This is true.......to a point. There comes a point where the technological gulf between two powers is simply so great that it cannot be compensated for in any way possible.

Quoting Malanthor,
The empire beeing a hyge tyrant need to have a military presence to subdue the worlds under its controll, they are also currently engaged in hostilities against the rebellion/alliance, they need to keep most of their armade tied up  with what its currently dooing or they will have a full scale uprising on their hands. That for one cannot be ignored. The empire has no allies, they just have themselves and a 900 thousand unruly worlds that would like nothing better than to regain their freedom.

The majority of Imperial worlds are quite content to be part of the Empire, due to Palpatine's enormous propaganda machinations. This is in no small part due to the predominance of the human species within the Star Wars galaxy, and generally the oppressed of the Empire tend to be aliens..............and you very rarely hear about civil demonstrations trying to end anti-alien sentiment. In fact, you never here about such.

Quoting Malanthor,
The federation on the other hand exists in a universe with other powers close at hand, they are in an alliance with the klingons, and the klingons would most likely be pulled into the war. A war would not start with the empire steamrolling the federation, it would have a first encounter, and then it could go alot of ways, some involving diplomacy, some skirmishing, and some a buildup of forces.

Most of those other powers are expansionist, militarist and imperialist in nature. Assuming the Federation gets the first contact, and then everything comes out.............I foresee some very pissed off Klingons; the Empire's industrial and superluminal transit advantages would make the Klingon/Romulan competition for territory radically different, should one side (like the Klingons) gain Imperial technology.

Though actually getting such technology..............is unlikely.

Quoting Malanthor,
In any case it would not be a mortal combat fight with each character respresenting the massed military presence of each faction.

Of course it won't be- for the Empire. The Federation's relative size/population density ratio, with their widely scattered colony worlds, allows a relatively small ISD task force to simply pick apart Federation territory.

Quoting Malanthor,
You also need to take into considerations the romulans, because there is a very strong chanse that they would realize that the empire means to controll any world -dont need great intell to come to that conclusion, and that once the federation and klingons fall they will be next.  

It's actually rather up-in-the-air on that; the Romulans seek to advance their own interests, and a method of doing so might be to ally with the Empire, particularly for access to their advanced technologies.

Quoting Malanthor,
Also the fight will most likely be in federation space simply because of the fact that the empire would be the aggressive part with the federatition taking a defensive role. (atleast in the start)

The ability of the Federation to counterattack into Imperial territory depends on the vs crossing; that is, is it a wormhole (presumably somewhere in Federation territory)? is it an intergalactic Imperial expedition? Is it a hyperspace travel accident?

For the last, then there's unlikely to be more than a handful of ships, and, ergo, more likely to be a lot more bargaining on the part of the Imperials; they can't get reinforcements and resupply is a very iffy thing. The second option would likely have brought ten times (or more!) the crew amounts of the vessels deployed, for both replacing killed crewers and for the likely construction of new vessels via a mobile shipyard that would presumably be deployed with the expedition (repairs are important!).

In any case, for the latter two, there's no hope of Federation reprisals against Imperial territory; it's either too far or a totally unknown area. For the first...........given the low population density of Federation territory relative to the number of member worlds and colonies, it could be a very, very long time before they find the wormhole. Which means the Empire (assuming the Imperials find it first; not totally unreasonable IMO) will have had time to fortify it.

Quoting Malanthor,
i must say imo that it seems quite clear that the federation has more advanced technology, they just need a screwdriver and a few hours to do almost anything lol. In star wars they have to make do with what they have, they dont have a macgyver sadly.

I put this down to the fact that the technology that SW has to work with is far more situationally flexible. Trek tech can do a lot of stuff, but either it's schizo-roled or it does one thing pretty well. The difference really lies in the relative static of SW technology being the probably result of reaching a technological peak.

Quoting Malanthor,
None of you are military analysts specialicing in predicting outcomes, and even not the very best military analyst would attempt to predict anything in this case given that we hardly know anything abouth the respective factions science level.

You don't need to be a military analyst. Generally speaking, you examine past behaviours of each power to build up a "psych profile", if you will, of that star-nation. From their, you take industrial capacity, economic capability, naval power, and superluminal, firepower, and durability capabilities into account.

Wrapping that all up, well, it indicates that the Empire is an economic and industrial supergiant compared to the Federation, has far superior FTL capability, as well as superior firepower and durability.

Quoting Malanthor,
For us its just magitech.

It's called "black box" analysis, AFAIK. You treat the magitech as a black box; energy goes in, funky stuff happens, energy goes out for thermodynamic balance. Both series' FTL drives are like this; you put energy into it, you go FTL, and then you stop after you stop putting energy into it.

Quoting Malanthor,
So why dont you just agree that the outcome would be impossibly to predict accuratly, sure whiskey can say that he think the empire has a better chanse and zeta and redneck can believe that the federation has a higher chanse but that should be it.

First off, see this:

Quoting Zeta1127,
I never said the Federation even had a chance, based on Whiskey's numbers, I see very little hope of a Federation victory. As much as I like the Federation, they just don't have the technology or manpower to fight the Empire.

Secondly, it is possible to accurately predict the outcome. Death Star 2 constructed to 60% completion in 6 months vs the 13 year cycle for 4 Galaxy-class starships- and also remember that the DS2 was a fully mobile, hyperdrive-equipped, planet-destroying battlestation.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Star Wars hasn't advanced its technology noticeably for a couple of thousand years.

You do realize that this could be because they've reached a technological plateau, or that perhaps they've discovered all science relevant to such technologies?

Quoting RedneckRapture,
The technology, energy, and capabilities shown far outstrip Star Wars,

Evidence other than a nebulous statement, please.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
Whiskey, I would ask this of you: Can YOU prove, on screen, that turbolasers have the power you claim? Can you prove that their hulls are as strong as you claim? From what I've seen, there's plenty of evidence showing they are not as powerful as claimed, and their hulls, since they take damage from those shots, obviously aren't that strong as well.

I don't need to; the ICS books do that quite well, as does extrapolation from known capabilities referenced in the EU. A lone Imperial-class Star Destroyer is capable of a BDZ operation in the course of a 24-hour period; such an operation leaves the surface of a planet barren.

This requires a minimum of 14,000 megatons of firepower. 14 gigatons, in other words. That's 3 orders of magnitude greater than the maximum theoretical yield of a photon torpedo.

BTW, you still haven't provided evidence that photon torpedo warheads are kept stored as liquid antideuterium- or that it's even antideuterium at all. It could be anti-helium, or anti-hydrogen for all we know.

Also keep in mind that given the durability shown in the movies, and the firepower of the weapons- that they aren't the most durable things against their own weapons is fairly irrelevant to the discussion at hand; the superior firepower that they are capable of directing will tear through the comparatively weaker Feddie hulls, while Fed weapons will generally do no more than scratch the Imperial shield systems.

Quoting RedneckRapture,
I will not be on for a few days due to final exams. When I get back, I will find and read your responses, so it won't be till Friday.

Punk.

Quoting Timmaigh,
but it seems that Whiskey is hellbent about proving StarWars universe being "superior" than StarTrek universe.

No. Neither universe is superior; it's just that in a military conflict the Empire trounces the Federation.

Quoting Timmaigh,
Cause the thread name says SW vs ST, not GW vs Feds

Generally speaking, "SWvsST" is understood to be "Galactic Empire vs the United Federation of Planets" (not GW BTW; that's a British tabletop wargame company). Even the OP understood this, as he explicitly mentions "Federation vs Empire" battles.

Quoting Timmaigh,
Anyway its quite funny, youre trying to argument each other using "math", when clearly tech in both universes is technobabble and BS, moreso in SW than ST, i suppose.

There are technical publications of both series that establish numerical capabilities- it's just that, unfortunately for ST, the Trek tech books aren't accepted within the Trek continuity. I'll further note that ST's technology is far more technobabble than anything Star Wars has brought up; SW never really bothers to explain how the tech works. SW tech is automatically accepted as functioning properly and it's left at that.

Quoting Timmaigh,
I think by claiming SW would beat ST (or vice-versa), youre just claiming that your universe of choice is more ridiculous than the other, when it comes to the "science" background.

Once again, it's not the entire settings taking each other on; it's the Empire and the Federation engaging in a military conflict. Looking at the numbers produced for both series (despite the non-canon status of Trek technical manuals), the Empire squishes the Federation like a bug.

Quoting Timmaigh,
Anyway, these pointless arguments clearly entertain you, so whatever floats your boat.

TBH, as of late SWvsST doesn't particularly entertain me. This debate I've got going with Redneck-boy is fun because right now I'm just spamming him with "show me the evidence/proof" that he is incapable of producing.

Quoting Timmaigh,
I would be lying, if i said, it was not fun to read, but i would still prefer, if you tried to explain, why you prefer either universe, there is shitload of reasons why people love or hate them and i would be curious about yours. 

Preference based on enjoyability; well, I enjoyed the DS9 episodes that I watched, and I loved the entirety of the SW movies, though the prequels I liked more for the effects and the awesome spess battles of the opening of EP3. What irks me most about Trek is that they try to explain the technology by stringing together meaningless phrases of scientific or scientific-sounding words. Generally, these strings of technobabble make absolutely no sense when you actually look at the meanings of the individual terms.

Oh, yeah, and Voyager. The entirety of Voyager irks me.

As for the actual debate- it's a discussion about the military capabilities of each power and how they would fare in a war against each other. Just looking at the numbers given from the (formerly canon) tech manual and the (always canon) ICS books- the Empire makes the Federation go *squish*.

Quoting Timmaigh,
StarTrek factions are much more interesting and "grey" to me, having various characteristics and motives to their actions..,

While I respect your opinion, I also chalk it up to the flavor of each setting; SW has traditionally been about a few people causing galaxy-changing events. The movies are also centered on Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader); they're more-or-less the story of Vader's rise to being a Jedi, his fall to the Dark Side, and his eventual redemption (at least in the eyes of his son, Luke).

In contrast, Trek is pitched as more of a possible future, and most of the powers are based on actual extant or former nations- though TOS Klingons were much better than TNG-onward Klingons; they had a much more interesting society that wasn't all "HONOUR IN BATTLE!!1!"

Quoting Timmaigh,
and having far more interesting ship models

TBH, I hate most of the Trek ship designs. To me, they look very spindly and fragile- I mean, a good hit on a nacelle pylon of the Galaxy-class and it's crippled and left adrift. There's also the greater iconic nature of most SW ships; Star Wars has a far greater cultural permeation than Star Trek, IMO. Among the more "nerdy" portions of the population, it could swing either way, I don't really know enough to say which is more popular.

But for mainstream pop culture, there's a lot more Star Wars that's become pop culture than Star Trek.

Quoting Timmaigh,
The inconsistency within ST technobabble might be annoying to me as well. but i was always more sensitive toward the inconsistency in stellar cartography or to visual errors in CGI/redresses of the same model.

Well, describe some of these inconsistencies and/or visual errors of models. I ask because I'm actually interested in what you have to say on that.

Quoting Timmaigh,
Saying all that, i certainly love StarWars and hold them in high regard, no matter the composition of the ISD hull or yield of the turbolasers...but i think those 617 episodes of Trek create more appealing universe to me than few, although brilliant, SW movies.

I don't really like Star Trek that much as of late; IMO, the picture it paints is just too optimistic. It just seems to lack a lot of depth- but OTOH, SW is far too much about galaxy-shattering/-changing events, especially in a direct manner. I'm actually working on a little project wherein the protagonists actions end up having "galactic" consequences- but it's exactly that, consequences, ripple effects. Most of which are unintended by the protagonists (a little nod to the Butterfly Effect, that).

Large numbers of rubber-forehead aliens are also not very cool. At least make the rubber-forehead aliens act alien.

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