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Brief Note to the Atheist

By on September 14, 2011 2:22:11 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

stevendedalus

Join Date 11/2003
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I don’t have a problem with atheists — each to his own comfort level — nonetheless, it is ridiculous for one of that inclination to get rattled to the extent that others of belief are denied their comfort. Atheism by definition is free from religion. Theists are free to believe as they see fit; atheists should look upon these  " misguided" as pathetic but have the right to the "wrong" path. If, however, atheist take on the passion of "religion" in their belief that there is no God, they in reality are in the business of propagating their non-faith as feverishly as the old Marxist line. In this respect they are as trapped in "belief" as the rest of us pathetic  old fools. They should therefore lobby for a limited currency series that states "In "God we do not trust," or a postage stamp that shows a black hole with the inscription "Godless."  

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September 16, 2011 2:25:38 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Their "non-faith" is a faith.  Since the existence of God is unproven and the non-existence is also non-proven, they have to accept on faith there is none.  That others believe there is appears to be a threat to their core beliefs, so they become as bad as a proselytizing religious person.

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September 17, 2011 2:55:39 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting Dr Guy,
Their "non-faith" is a faith. Since the existence of God is unproven and the non-existence is also non-proven, they have to accept on faith there is none.

Claiming that atheists “cannot prove that God does not exist” often relies upon the misunderstanding that atheists claim “God does not exist” and should prove this. In reality, atheists merely fail to accept the theists' claim “God exists” and, hence, the initial burden of proof lies with the believer. If the believer is unable to provide good reason to accept the existence of their god, it is unreasonable to expect the atheist to construct a disproof of it — or even care much about the claim in the first place.

 

From: Atheism is Based on Faith?
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September 17, 2011 5:57:45 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Atheism by definition is free from religion.

Atheism doesn't concern itself with religion but rather the rejection of a belief in deities. Religion is merely the packaging of worship and is therefore superfluous to atheism.

atheists should look upon these  " misguided" as pathetic

Why should atheists do that? What purpose does condescension serve? To have no belief in dieties does not require judging those that do. I don't need to hate nor deride chocolate in order to like vanilla.

If, however, atheist take on the passion of "religion" in their belief that there is no God, they in reality are in the business of propagating their non-faith as feverishly as the old Marxist line.

What you are describing here is, at the core, egoism/narcissim not atheism. You could replace the subject of atheism with any other subject and draw similiar conclusions.

The need to feverishly propagate ones own position is egotistical. If you have a problem with that then your problem is with egoism. But all you're saying is that you believe some atheists are egotistical/narcissitic. I agree. Some are. But that says nothing about the merit of the aetheist position itself.  

So in that case atheism is merely the vehicle of the ego.

They should therefore lobby for a limited currency series that states "In "God we do not trust," or a postage stamp that shows a black hole with the inscription "Godless." 

Why would an atheist spend their time rejecting something they dont believe in? As by definition they dont believe in it so what is there to reject? If you are finding yourself arguing with "atheists who are religious in their disbelief" then you'd do better to realise that you are not arguing with an atheist per se but rather you are enagaging an ego defending a positionality.

In that sense neither you nor they can ever "win" and you're much better off disengaging.

For even if you were to logically obliterate them their ego would likely rebound in the even worse form of the persecuted victim mentality. If they destroyed your argument, you lose. And if neither gets their point across then all you've done is feed the ego attention which is all it often wants anyway.

Enagaging "feverish" types is literally a waste of time. 

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September 23, 2011 10:41:45 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting ForkedNives,
Atheism doesn't concern itself with religion but rather the rejection of a belief in deities. Religion is merely the packaging of worship and is therefore superfluous to atheism.

Rejection of a belief is merely the belief that it does not exist.  Atheists may spin it (and they feel a need to since they are distancing themselves from religion), but the fact remains.  Their religion is the belief that god does not exist.  it is not founded on any solid facts, just beliefs.

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September 28, 2011 5:22:06 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Rejection of a belief is merely the belief that it does not exist.

 

I disagree. Absence of a belief is not the same as a contrarian belief just as dark is not the opposite of light but the absence of light.

Atheists may spin it (and they feel a need to since they are distancing themselves from religion), but the fact remains.

I think the spin comes from the religious person who attempts to create the illusion of a diametrical position in order to use relativistic terminology like "the fact remains" when in fact there is no fact.

Their religion is the belief that god does not exist.  it is not founded on any solid facts, just beliefs.

 I consider religion to be more than just a belief. It's a series of practices. Wikipedia describes it well enough for me:

The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system, but religion differs from private belief in that it has a public aspect. Most religions have organized behaviors, including clerical hierarchies, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, congregations of laity, regular meetings or services for the purposes of veneration of a deity or for prayer, holy places (either natural or architectural), and/or scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include sermons, commemoration of the activities of a god or gods, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, music, art, dance, public service, or other aspects of human culture

Source: Wikipedia - Religion

I dont know of any athiest who participates in an Athiestic religion because there is nothing to venerate.

 

FTR: I'm not Christian but nor am i an atheist.

 

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October 4, 2011 12:35:20 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting ForkedNives,
FTR: I'm not Christian but nor am i an atheist.

You took the time to respond in length while my responses were short and ambiguous.  And I agree with you for the most part. Most religions are both a set of beliefs and a set of actions.

However, atheism is a set of beliefs.  it is not the absence of belief.  So it is not the same as dark and light.  Calling it a religion may be a bit much, but it has many of the trappings of a religion. 

for the vast majority of Christians and Atheists, what each decide to believe is less important than how one acts.  But for some in both camps, the beliefs of the other are a threat to their own dogma, and so they react violently (through words or a few cases, actions).

That was my point.

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November 19, 2011 7:41:37 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting Dr Guy,
Their "non-faith" is a faith. Since the existence of God is unproven and the non-existence is also non-proven
I think you are just buying into a false premise here Doc. If nothing is proven to exist … then there is no burden of proof to consider beyond that point. Only an idiot would even attempt to try and disprove something that wasn’t proven to exist in the first place ... Welcome to the illogical world of religion, hahaha … and politics.

 

I agree with ForkedNives here, there is no atheist ideology at play, no atheist agenda, no atheist rituals and no atheistic superstitions.

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November 19, 2011 7:53:39 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting ArturoThomas,
Reply #7   ArturoThomas
... the great JuJu at the bottom of the sea, hahaha, I like that. Logic will not dent their armour and proof is meaningless to people who don't need any proof themselves, hehehe.

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November 22, 2011 7:32:57 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

I just found your article and would like to chime in. 

Atheism by definition is free from religion.[/quote]

I disagree. 

Atheism is a prideful denial of Almighty God. THeir religion is Atheistic Humanism which is basically a set of beliefs and values that puts man as the center, origin and apex of all things. The Atheistic Humanist creates his own world and he is the master of his own self, complete without God. By the mastery of the sciences, industry, and technology, given time, there is nothing, absolutely nothing the AH will not be able to control and he is his own god. 

If, however, atheist take on the passion of "religion" in their belief that there is no God, they in reality are in the business of propagating their non-faith as feverishly as the old Marxist line.

I agree. 

It was the militant Atheistic Humanist who caused that prayer be removed from all public schools as well as the Ten Commandments in public places. It the militant Atheistic Humanist that clamors that the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance and our coinage. It is the militant Atheistic Humanist that wars against Christmas and that all things of Christianity be removed from sight.

..........................

[quote who="ForkedNives" reply="2" id="2997792"]In reality, atheists merely fail to accept the theists' claim “God exists” and, hence, the initial burden of proof lies with the believer.

first, you'll never convnce me that it's simply atheists failure to accept the theist's claim that God exists. Atheism is a deliberate one-sided affair...Atheist's make a decision against God.

Second,  No one believes that the existence of God is capable of verification by methods of science. But God's existence is capable of verification by reason and science doesn't tend to the denial of this in properly instructed and well balanced minds. 

 

 

 

 

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November 23, 2011 2:56:58 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting lulapilgrim,
Atheism is a deliberate one-sided affair...Atheist's make a decision against God.

No it is simply the lack of belief in dieties. It is in no way a religion by itself, however there are religions which are atheistic in nature. It is not a decision against anything because you cannot be against something you don't believe in to start with.

 

Quoting lulapilgrim,
But God's existence is capable of verification by reason

Quite the contrary. Reasoning involves establishing and verifying facts.Gods existence is ascertained through faith not reasoning.

 

Quoting lulapilgrim,
properly instructed and well balanced minds.

You mean brainwashed and/or indoctrinated.

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November 23, 2011 3:12:02 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting lulapilgrim,
t was the militant Atheistic Humanist who caused that prayer be removed from all public schools

Actually it was a Jewish man who took the school prayer issue all the way to the supreme court because his son was taunted by christians because he didn't participate in school prayers.

As to the pledge of allegiance a christian sect called the Jehovah Witnesses was the first group to challenge the pledge in public schools. They consider it to be idolatry.

You love to blame these things on what you perceive as "the other side" when in fact many of these issues came to be because of the zealotry of your own kind.

BTW: Did you know the pledge of allegiance was written by a socialist?

 

 

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November 23, 2011 10:40:47 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Smoothseas, If logic, common sense or proof were to be counted on here this discussion would not be taking place. The RCC has to have its enemies to function so they have made the whole world their enemy with their pompous attitudes and unmatched superiority over everyone else on the planet. It might be one thing if Christianity vs. science was the theme … but it is not. The bulk of the problems are religion vs. religion and sect vs. sect as science doesn’t pick sides … it is what it is … the expression of human knowledge as an understanding of the real world … not the imaginary one religious folk pretend to live in. At some point in evolution, I would like to think we will reach a time where superstitions and folklore (traditions) are removed from the equation of life altogether.

As you stated, when a thorough look is made into these presumed religious ‘injustices’, one invariably finds The Church buried to the eyeballs in the controversy which normally involves religious prattle and exhibitions in public venues and especially the public schools.

I am an atheist (probably the one in question?) and am amazed daily with the accusations of how my “atheism” is some kind of faith or pseudo religion of sorts … somehow. Logic bears its own truth via the scientific way (proof) which is what an atheist stands for ... the real world truth. Just because theists have an agenda … it is falsely assumed that everyone must therefore have an agenda too??? And as expected, in order for me to find out whatever my agenda is … I am required to ask the religious folk, hahaha. The world of make believe seems to attract children and zealots alike, humm.

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November 23, 2011 8:53:58 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting BoobzTwo,
The bulk of the problems are religion vs. religion and sect vs. sect

I personally don't think the root of most problems are religion vs. religion etc. I think people (and governments) use religion as a tool to solve their "problems". It is used as a control mechanism. Dictators use it to control their populations, politicians use it to pander votes in order to gain positions of power, Countries use it to wage war in order to gain access or control of other countries natural resources, individuals use it to discredit others, etc.

Quoting BoobzTwo,
At some point in evolution, I would like to think we will reach a time where superstitions and folklore (traditions) are removed from the equation of life altogether.

Unfortunately I don't think that will happen. The ruling class knows history quite well and will not let religion die because they know how effective it is in controlling the general population. They will simply use the herd to rewrite the history and science books to dumb down the population.

 

 

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November 23, 2011 11:04:05 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting Smoothseas,
Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 10
Atheism is a deliberate one-sided affair...Atheist's make a decision against God.

Quoting Smoothseas,
No it is simply the lack of belief in dieties.

And this lack of belief in Almighty God is a decision that is made ..a deliberate decision. 

Men do not have to persuade themselves that there is a God. They have to try to persuade themselves that there is no God. And no one yet who has attained to such a persuasion has been able to find a valid reason for it. Men do not grow into the idea of a God; they endeavor to grow out of it.... this is what I meant  when I said Atheist's make a decision against God.

All of us, every one of us, is either for God or against Him.   

 

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November 23, 2011 11:21:26 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting Smoothseas,
Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 10
But God's existence is capable of verification by reason

 

Smoothseas posts: 
Quite the contrary. Reasoning involves establishing and verifying facts.Gods existence is ascertained through faith not reasoning.

 

Yes, proof of the existence of the One God and our certainity of His existence comes by the natural light of reason. reason is the intellect apprehending truth. Men even children possess reason; animals have none. Reason is one of the things that separate man-kind from animal-kind. 

Believing in God seems to be the natural condition or intuition. That's why I said  people don't have to persuade themselves that there is a One God, rather they have to try to persuade themselves there is no God. That's why I said that men do not grow into the idea of a One God, rather they endeavor to grow out of it. 

 

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November 23, 2011 11:31:41 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting lulapilgrim,
Second,  No one believes that the existence of God is capable of verification by methods of science. But God's existence is capable of verification by reason and science doesn't tend to the denial of this in properly instructed and well balanced minds. 

 

Quoting Smoothseas,
You mean brainwashed and/or indoctrinated.

No, I meant what I said. To understand you must think it through.  

 Reason is the intellect apprehending truth and true science is about apprehending truth, isn't it? 

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November 24, 2011 4:53:15 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting lulapilgrim,
And this lack of belief in Almighty God is a decision that is made ..a deliberate decision.

Some cultures do not include any concept of your god or any other dieties. It is not always a choice between one or the other. It is different for everyone. When the Spanish arrived in South American the natives were not choosing between your god or no god. They were choosing between life and death. Same goes for North America. Many natives were given the choice to believe in your god or die and then their children were taken away from them so they could be indoctrinated. Looks to me personally like there are many choices. Your god, many gods, no gods or some other god.

Quoting lulapilgrim,
Reason is the intellect apprehending truth and true science is about apprehending truth, isn't it?

The belief in the existence of god is plain and simple a leap of faith. One has faith that their church, its clergy, and texts are revealing the truth.

Quoting lulapilgrim,
No one believes that the existence of God is capable of verification by methods of science.

Then why have you defended the inclusion of intelligent deign in science books in other posts within this forum?

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November 26, 2011 12:07:52 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Stevendedalus writes:

If, however, atheist take on the passion of "religion" in their belief that there is no God, they in reality are in the business of propagating their non-faith as feverishly as the old Marxist line. [/quote]

Lula posts:

Quoting Smoothseas,
I agree. 

It was the militant Atheistic Humanist who caused that prayer be removed from all public schools as well as the Ten Commandments in public places. It the militant Atheistic Humanist that clamors that the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance and our coinage. It is the militant Atheistic Humanist that wars against Christmas and that all things of Christianity be removed from sight.

[quote who="Smoothseas" reply="12" id="3028678"]Actually it was a Jewish man who took the school prayer issue all the way to the supreme court because his son was taunted by christians because he didn't participate in school prayers.

Just curious. What's his name and when did that take place?

I was thinking of Madalyn Murray O'Hair, an atheist and also Jewish combined cases of Murray v. Curlett/Abington Township v. Schempp which helped abolish mandatory, unison prayer and Bible verse recitation in the public schools 

The legal and cultural battles over school prayer and related First Amendment issues go back to the Everson v. Board of Education (1947), the McCollum (1948) and Zorach (1952) cases.

In 1962, it was the Engel v. Vitale suit, which prohibited student recitation of a "nondenominational" prayer that led to the Murray v. Curlett case and a companion suit filed by the Schempp family. 

In 1963, the Supreme Court banned Bible readings, and in 1980 ordered public schools to remove the Ten Commandments from view. 

 

 

 

 

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November 26, 2011 3:11:58 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting lulapilgrim,
Just curious. What's his name and when did that take place?

Quoting lulapilgrim,
I was thinking of Madalyn Murray O'Hair

Of course you were. Might as well pull the atheist out of a long list of cases which have led to current law regarding religious prayer in schools. I wouldn't expect otherwise since that what many people and groups have done over the years. The man I was referring to was the lawyer in the Engel vs. Vitale case and his son was one of several litigants in the case.

Look at the list of cases. They involve mostly one religious sect vs. another. The bible reading cases involve disputes often based on the version of the bible used and prayer issues involve one religion vs. another. Some of them have nothing to do with prayer in school however they set precedent involving the separation of church and state cases. Some of these cases involve tax dollars used in the funding of parochial schools. 

 

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November 26, 2011 11:18:41 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting Smoothseas,
Might as well pull the atheist out of a long list of cases which have led to current law regarding religious prayer in schools.

Might as well. Michael Newdow comes next. He's a Jewish atheist that is bent on having the words  "Under God" removed from the pledge of Allegiance in schools. 

Yep, in 1962, we let the Supreme Court kick God and Christian prayer and principles out of school. Put Secular Humanism in its place. ANd what's that done for us?

SAT scores on tests that have been made easier....down. 

Teen Suicide up. 

Illegal drugs up. 

Criminal arrests of teens up. 

School killings of student upon student, student upon teachers up. 

Births to unmarried school girls up.

Abortion up.

Bullying up.

Teacher/student sex abuse up. 

Student depression up. 

The teachers who want to expound on controversial political opinions, teach the kids to sing pro-Obama ditties, provide prayer mats and prayer time for Muslim students, or teach homosexuality is normal, acceptable, even good and if there are any objections made, the comeback is "academic freedom". THat's what schools are for, but not for the Christian religion. 

........................

 

  

 

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November 27, 2011 1:56:33 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting lulapilgrim,
Put Secular Humanism in its place. ANd what's that done for us?

Maybe you should take a look around the world to see what statistics other countries have and then maybe you wouldn't agree with such naive uneducated conclusions as to what causes such problems. As a whole this country is very religious and we have more problems than many societies that are much less religious.

Quoting lulapilgrim,
THat's what schools are for, but not for the Christian religion.

As it should be. In one breath you criticize not only every other religion in the world, but also countries that do teach religions in their schools...... then in the next you wonder why others criticize yours. This country was started because of people like you who wished to impose their religious beliefs on others. 

Quoting lulapilgrim,
Might as well. Michael Newdow comes next.

Of course he does in your book. He is just as much a zealot as you are, just from the other side of the spectrum. His cases generally fail because the constitution states giving no preference to any particular religion over others not religion vs. the lack thereof. The successful cases involved one religion vs. another. You seem to blame so much on the lack of religion even when it is one religious sect against another.

As usual you blame all the problems in the world on everyone else. So convenient and comfortable, yet often so untrue.

 

 

 

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November 30, 2011 11:15:00 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting ,



I don’t have a problem with atheists — each to his own comfort level — nonetheless, it is ridiculous for one of that inclination to get rattled to the extent that others of belief are denied their comfort. Atheism by definition is free from religion. Theists are free to believe as they see fit; atheists should look upon these  " misguided" as pathetic but have the right to the "wrong" path. If, however, atheist take on the passion of "religion" in their belief that there is no God, they in reality are in the business of propagating their non-faith as feverishly as the old Marxist line. In this respect they are as trapped in "belief" as the rest of us pathetic  old fools. They should therefore lobby for a limited currency series that states "In "God we do not trust," or a postage stamp that shows a black hole with the inscription "Godless."
I don’t have a problem with theists either … but I am not going around the world promoting atheism and wouldn’t were it possible because I don’t care either. As one should expect, it is next to impossible to mix magic and science even under the best of conditions … and theism vs. atheism is not the best of conditions for sure. I have never even equivocated that someone else (anyone else) become an atheist, why should I? You are being silly about this nonsense in the last line don’t you think. If it spends it is good enough for me for sure but the stamp would look good in my collection, hahaha. In the real world, anything that opposes the RCC or CCC is by definition atheistic which puts me in with a lot of company … but surely the atheist are in control of something … aren’t they? Just think of all the different atheists who bay at night to other gods … what atheists are you even referring to here anyway prey tell? Are you really concerned with the inscriptions on our stuff, hehehe?

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December 1, 2011 7:11:23 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting lulapilgrim,
Yep, in 1962, we let the Supreme Court kick God and Christian prayer and principles out of school. Put Secular Humanism in its place. ANd what's that done for us?

SAT scores on tests that have been made easier....down. 

Teen Suicide up. 

Illegal drugs up. 

Criminal arrests of teens up. 

School killings of student upon student, student upon teachers up. 

Births to unmarried school girls up.

Abortion up.

Bullying up.

Teacher/student sex abuse up. 

Student depression up. 

Quoting Smoothseas,
Maybe you should take a look around the world to see what statistics other countries have and then maybe you wouldn't agree with such naive uneducated conclusions as to what causes such problems.

I don't have to look around the world to know what happened and what is happening in America as far as public education is concerned. 

Like it or not, agree or not, these are factual conclusions. direct results that followed taking God and Judeo-Christian principles out of schools and instituting Secular and Atheistic Humanism in its place. 

I'm a graduate of a superb public education during the 50s, the last generation whose educational philosophy complied with Judeo-Christian principles, ethics and values. Then, the big problems in school were talking in class, standing out of line, gum chewing, and so on.

Then, parents sent their kids to schools knowing that the school would respect, not challenge, ignore, or usurp their parental rights and authority. Then, discipline was taught and practiced. Then, educators taught patriotism , morals and character along with reading, writing, math and the sciences. We started and ended the day with a prayer. We respected our teachers, and were civil and decent to one another. Then, the primary function of education was teaching facts and subject matter, and schools were not human resource centers. 

I believe the difference between then and now, is because we were given ethical and moral standards. Both history and statistical evidence show that there was no student violence, toward other students and teachers, no police presence required in schools, no drug testing needed, no epidemic of students infected with  venereal diseases. Then, our schools weren't plagued with drug abuse, teen promiscuity, and pregnancies. Then, Students weren't stressed out, depressed or committing suicide. 

But with the cultural and sexual revolution of the early 60s, came the infusion of the principles of Secular and Atheistic Humanism into the curriculum of our schools. Humanistic educators believe the proper role for schools is to change, create or clarify student's values and since God was reduced to irrelevant, the only absolute truth is that there are no absolutes values...all is relative and what seems good to one is morally right and they can choose.  This is especially true in the area of kindergarten through 12th grade classroom sex instruction.   

Today, any objective person can only conclude that the staggeringly high numbers and instances of these pathologies in our student population are causalties of Humanist classroom sex instruction. 

 

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December 1, 2011 7:15:58 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting Smoothseas,
As a whole this country is very religious and we have more problems than many societies that are much less religious.

No, not true. As a whole our country is very irreligious. Our culture says it all. That we are steeped in the culture of death.

 

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