CHANGE LOG (ALPHA 8)

This update completely reworks the combat counter system, capital ships, and combat abilities.  There are a lot of changes, big and small, so this change log will be more conceptual and less about details...

This update is for TEC ONLY...if you are actually playing games with this mod, DO NOT have any Advent or Vasari players...

TECHNOLOGY

Generally speaking, all the military bonuses via technology cap at 25%, with a 10% bonus at the first two tiers and a 5% bonus on the highest tier.  Technologies (such as TEC shields or TEC AM) with only 2 tiers will cap at 20%.  This change is not necessarily permanent and the actual bonuses may be rethought when Advent and Vasari are integrated into the new combat system.

COMBAT

The counter system is entirely different.  As before, you start with LFs (heavy armor, anti-medium weaponry).  At tier 2, you can research HCs (very heavy armor, anti-heavy weaponry), which counter both LFs and flak.  At tier 3, you can research LRFs (medium armor, anti-very heavy weaponry), which counter HCs and are pretty decent against structures.

LFs are primarily used to counter carriers, support ships, and LRFs, though they are also somewhat effective against lightly armored targets...HCs are primarily used to counter LFs and flak...LRFs are primarily used to HCs and are good early-game ships to use against structures...all 3 ships are equally capable against capital ships in terms of damage (though the LRF range is a plus)...

Carriers can be researched at tier 5.  Generally speaking, a single squadron of SC is about 1.5x more powerful than a vanilla squadron...SC in general, however, are not meant to be any more or less powerful than before (though they may be inadvertently).  Note that carriers cost 20 fleet supply, yet still only field 2 squadrons.  Fighters (very light armor, anti-light weaponry) are used to take out bombers.  Bombers (light armor, composite weaponry) are all-purpose units that have the advantage of attacking with impunity.  They are not meant to counter any specific thing, but rather their value lies in their tactical difference from frigates (which almost always put themselves at risk while attacking).  Flak (heavy armor, anti-very light weaponry) is meant to counter fighters, though it is somewhat effective against bombers.

So, bombers are a general, all purpose unit, good against most ships...fighters are used to counter bombers and light armor frigates...flak is used to counter fighters, and to some degree bombers as well...

You will find that all ships now have 1/2 hull, 1/2 shields...additionally, shields regenerate twice as fast...

FRIGATES

Arcova:

• A little more resilient than before, but no longer useful at taking out militia siege frigates
• Timed explosives now completely disables a target for 60s...particularly useful for preventing frigate factories from constructing units...seriously consider assaulting planets with some of these...

Cobalts, Kodiaks, Gardas, and LRMs:

• Nothing special done here aside from the damage table changes...one thing to keep in mind is that LRMs now use 5 fleet supply, not 4...
• Generally speaking, LFs will probably be the dominant ship type.  Changes to make HCs and LRFs more competitive may occur (possibly by being more effective against caps).
• Cluster warheads (LRM) is much more powerful now

Hoshiko:

• These cruisers now repair at 25 hull/s, and repair for 20s...this should make protecting capital ships a bit easier
• Dem bots no longer disables weapons, but rather affects the weapon cooldown by 200% (basically, damage becomes 1/3 of base)

Cielo:

• Embolden is now an AoE that regenerates 5 shields/s and gives a 10% weapon cooldown bonus for a full minute...seriously consider using these ships now.
• Designate target now drains AM per second...remember this ability can be disrupted

Ogrovs and Krosovs

• Not a whole lot different now

Percherons:

• Cost 20 fleet supply, more comparable to Aeria in stats...however, they only field 2 squadrons still
• Much more AM and better AM regen rate

Miscellaneous:

• Constructors regenerate 1 HP/s
• Non combat ships, like support ships, scouts, colony ships, and siege frigates may have different weapon types than before (ex: krosovs have anti-module weapons now)

CAPITAL SHIP

Generally speaking, capital ships are harder to kill (or at least should be), especially when properly supported.  Capital ships no longer gain stat bonuses upon level up (such as increases to HP, AM, etc.) or extra SC squadrons, they only gain an ability point...this means that capital ships are more deadly at lower levels than before, while at higher levels their power lies solely in their abilities, not resiliency/firepower.

The three "normal" abilities now have only 2 levels instead of 3...you should find level 1 abilities to be more potent, while level 3 abilities should be comparable to before....each capital ship now has a new 5th ability called "Specialization"...this ability is different for each ship, and provides a unique passive bonus appropriate for the ship's class (for example, "Combat Specialization" increases the Kol's damage and passive HP regen)...because the 5th ability is in the same slot as the ability selection button, you can't see it on the UI (which is why they are all passive)...however, you'll have no problem selecting this ability like any other as your ship levels up...

Ultimates are available only at lvl 7, will the "normal" abilities (including specialization) are the same as before: tier 1 available at lvl 1, tier 2 at lvl 3, and tier 3 at lvl 5...

Most capital ships do 80 DPS...battleships do 100 DPS while carriers do only 60 DPS...all caps perform the same at bombing planets except siege caps, which are 2/3 better and have better range....all caps start with 1 squadron, except carriers which start with 3...leveling up does not increase the number of squadrons...

You should find that the capital ships and their abilities scale much better to the late game...the intent of this mod is to make all capital ships equally important and all abilities equally valuable...you will find that the specialization abilities are probably marginalized which is okay, what is important is that the other abilities are more competitive...

Kol:

• GRG now does only hull damage...additionally, the target suffers a shield mitigation penalty for 30s
• Flak burst is now an AoE periodic action...all SC in range suffer 5 DPS and a -20% accuracy debuff
• Adaptive forcefield is now passive
• Finest Hour regenerates same amount of hull, but has a higher regen rate for a shorter period of time
• Combat Specialization grants a bonus to the Kol's weapon cooldown and hull repair rate

Sova:

• Embargo is more or less the same, just refitted for 2 levels
• Missile platforms are spawned less often, but each one has a special version of cluster warheads...this ability does not require the technology (like the LRM does), is passive (instead of operating on a 60s cooldown), and does an immense amount of splash damage...should help these things scale better
• Air Command (replaced heavy SC) now grants an AoE buff to friendly SC, which will get an accuracy bonus and chance to dodge...note that targetting uplink did not (and still does not) affect SC
• Rapid manufacturing no longer affects planets...rather, all carriers, caps, SBs, and hangars within range build their SC instantly for a very limited time...cooldown is 200s, so hopefully this isn't too powerful...
• Aerial Specialization is very similar to the heavy SC of old...damage bonus and armor bonus to the Sova's own SC

Akkan

• Colonizing now only gets you the free extractor, no more extraction rate bonus...this is to make colony frigates more competitive and the colony cap less of a no-brainer for 1st cap pick...still useful though, as colony frigates have their own limitations
• Ion bolt is more or less the same, just fitted to 2 levels
• Targetting uplink is more or less the same, just fitted for 2 levels
• Armistice is more or less the same
• Industrial Specialization grants a small ship build rate bonus to the planet the Akkan is at

Dunov

• Shield Restore is now a channeling ability that lasts for 25s...in addition to instant shields, the target gets a small bonus to shield mitigation and shield regen
• Magnetize now affects infinite SC, though the finish condition is still dependent on the number of SC destroyed
• EMP is a little more powerful, but more or less the same
• Flux Field no longer affects ability AM usage, but rather grants a substantial AM regen bonus...
• Support Specialization gives the Dunov better AM regen and ability cooldown times

Marza

• Radiation bomb now disables passive regeneration on all affected targets for a short while
• Raze planet is more or less the same
• Incendiary shells now does hull damage and reduces the target's armor slightly
• Missile Barrage is more or less the same
• Siege Specialization increases the Marza's bombing cooldown and weapon range

There is no guarantee that these abilities are balanced (hence the term "work in progress")...the most problematic value will probably be the AM costs, so feedback is very much appreciated!

MISCELLANEOUS

The Argonev now has no limit on the number of upgrades it can have...there are some other minor changes but I think this is the one worth mentioning...

Tactical structures are different now in their stats, but no major changes...more refinement for them will come later...

Alpha 9 will probably be released soon, and will help fix some of the most unbalanced changes...additionally, I'm listing some changes I forgot to mention...

Radiation bomb will now only disable passive regeneration on the initial target...

Cluster warheads has been nerfed slightly (which also should help missile platforms from becoming OP)...

Timed explosives now stacks so multiple arcovas can place explosives at the same time...additionally, the cooldown has been reduced to 250s...

EMP has been nerfed (the shield damage at least)...

Capital ship weapons are not as powerful against capital ship armor....

Some AM costs have been tweaked a little...

Also, forgot to mention that the XP for each level up has changed slightly...more XP is required to level up, but remember that you can get a 50% bonus to XP earned if you research the cap ship training tech...so, it is more or less of a wash...additionally, capital ships are all worth 500 XP while SBs are worth 1000 XP...

Been reduced to vanilla Sins damage? 

Ive always felt, EMP was great as is. But thats me.

Well, I originally buffed it in Alpha 8 because 1) each ability only has 2 levels so at the very least lvl 1 needs to be better and 2) I wasn't sure if how often exactly it could be used given the new AM reserves of caps...

Seems though it was more or less fine, may not even need to change the AM cost...

Alpha 9 has been released...a whole host of minor changes, mostly to capital ship and support ship abilities...I would post a change log but there are a few things I want to refine for alpha 10, so I think I'm going to wait till then, and probably post a nice, pretty cumulative change log.....

In general, I'm fairly happy with things...still looking for a good set of changes for Embargo, which is OP early game but UP late-game...

Additionally, if anyone has any thoughts on the cobalt's ability (whether it be OP, UP, or just right), please let me know...

Well I haven't really tested it as a way of shutting down abilities, but its the only LF ability that does damage, and can actually allow them to beat disciples in the rare LF mirror match. The only thing I would do is maybe increase the amount of antimatter removed.

A bigger problem is interference on the Skirmisher. If I remember right it only affects abilities, which means it does nothing against carriers. Personally I'd like to see all LF abilities be the counter to carriers in long engagements by depleting their antimatter, but even if you don't like that it is a strategic weakness of the skirmisher. Of course it has regeneration as an extra ability, so maybe its not a huge deal.

Edit: After seeing Carbon's post, I double checked and realized Sabatoge antimatter does not remove antimatter. So certainly add that.

I suggest trying my idea for Embargo. Not that Im bias.

Only issues with Cobalt's ability is worthless against Carriers Cruisers. Not that abilites fault really though. Just additional blargh based on Carriers using AM and not an ability to generate more SC.

First things first...

I do agree with both of you that the disciple has a huge advantage here because it can affect carriers while the other two can't...

What should be done about this?  Well, I'd first like to point out that in this mod, carriers are actually countered by LRFs (at least as far as the damage tables are concerned), not LFs...that being said, the LF abilities don't care what the damage tables say...so Goa I think having the cobalt's ability affect AM in general may be a good improvement...

Second...Carbon I am still contemplating your idea for embargo...first off, let me make sure I got it right...IIRC your argument was that planet income was too important early game but very unimportant late game, so having the ability affect trade would help scale it better while simultaneously not making it a killer early game...

Conceptually I agree...the problem is implementing it...first off, I tested it, and shutting down a trade port (including its functionality) does not disrupt the trade chain, only the trade income of that individual structure...

Additionally, the problem with shutting down trade/refineries is that in this mod, the planet/extractor income exceeds trade/refinery income even in the late game (only a super super huge empire would change this dynamic), so affecting trade only wouldn't be enough...

So we are looking at an ability that effects trade/refineries and some other element of income (tax income and/or resource income)...one consideration also is that the "double" swing of stealing the resources (as opposed to just negating them) is particularly brutal...

Perhaps there are some other buffs I should consider adding?  Keep in mind that I don't want this to be too similar to the Marauder's subversion (which affects build rates)....

Damage wise I think that is good, but if the LFs still have their role as hurting support cruisers, I think that should be expanded to every frigate that requires antimatter. That way if you want to destroy the carriers quickly, use LRMs, if you want to reduce their ability to replace strike craft, use LFs with abilities. Add a good/long lasting antimatter regeneration penalty to the skirmisher's interference ability and you have a good variety of abilities that can disrupt support and carrier cruisers (btw I think I will do this with Enhanced 4X).

That said, if LRFs are the counter for carriers, won't kiting be a bigger problem? I really think LFs should stay the counter to carriers unless you've rebalanced speed as well.

LRF speed is 600 while LC speed is 500...so LRFs do outrun carriers, though not by a whole lot...kiting would probably still be effective though since that's a very small edge, though my focus is more on dealing with the SC themselves than killing the actual carriers...

Anyway, let's assume for a second that carriers aren't really countered by anything...

The current triad is LFs <- HCs <- LRFs <- LFs...in addition to this triad, Utility cruisers are countered by LFs and flak is countered by HCs...that leaves LRFs with a very limited role...

The cap killing role is already assigned to bombers which, unlike the 3 mainstay ships, are not vulnerable to the heavy firepower of caps (which do about twice as much DPS against frigates as before)...that's a change I'm fairly certain I want to keep, though a compelling argument or disagreeable playtests could persuade me otherwise...

The anti-structure role is already assigned to ogrovs and adjudicators (which will be fixed in the future)...of course, that leaves Vasari at a disadvantage but I have some ideas on how to deal with that, so let's assume for now that the anti-structure role is already filled...

As for light armored ships (like ogrovs and siege frigates), fighters are the best counter...that being said, LFs are more effective against light armor than HCs and LRFs, so LFs can be used effectively to deal with siege frigates and antimodule ships...so, this role is very much already filled...

That doesn't leave much left for LRFs other than carriers...

I really don't want LFs or HCs to counter carriers because those two ships are currently much more useful than LRFs...LFs are good against several ship types while HCs are the best to deal with caps/SBs because they have more HP per ship... besides, trading the LRF spam for a LF or HC spam seems rather silly...

So I'm left with two options...carriers are not directly countered by anything (so basically, they'd have module or capital ship armor) or carriers are countered by LRFs (so, very heavy armor)...

I really aim to have fighters and cap abilities be effective enough against bombers so that bomber spam isn't OP...assuming I succeed in that, I honestly am not all too bummed out to not even have a direct counter to carriers...LFs can hurt their AM and caps/fighters/flak can shoot down the SC, so killing the carrier itself is not terribly important if you can adequately handle the SC...

If LRFs don't counter carriers, however, then I feel I still need to give them something...originally they fared slightly better against caps and structures than HCs or LFs, but I got rid of those perks in light of being better against carriers...

Not decided on the issue, but I'm very hesitant to give LFs the anti-carrier role in the damage tables...a proper AM-hurting ability in itself is already a "counter" per se anyway....

Alpha 10 has been released...

Because there are so many changes, I'm not going to probably be releasing detailed change logs anymore...instead, whenever I have the time I'll update some of my excel sheets and package each release with a cumulative change log....

Please note that right now this mod is playable only as TEC, and is optimized for normal speed and quickstart...

Some of the bigger changes in this mod include:

• Tweaking of capital ship ability use times, AM costs, cooldowns, durations, etc.
• Refineries now cost more and take up 3 slots instead of 2...not that in general, 2 refineries still outperform 3 trade ports, so refineries are still the most powerful economic facility
• Extractors now have a refinery quota of 2 (neutrals at 3)
• Capital ship factories now cost 2 logistic slots
• The random maps now have the HW starting with 1 more logistic upgrade than before (this is because of the increase in the cap factory slot number)
• Player now starts with same number of crystal and metal
• Capital ships are more expensive
• DPS of capital ships has been halved (they are now more comparable to vanilla values)...furthermore, carrier caps now only start with 2 squadrons instead of 3...you will find that all 5 TEC capital ships should now face forward to focus fire instead of some (like the akkan and sova) turning to the side...
• Flak burst was buffed to do 10 DPS instead of 5 DPS
• Embargo significantly affects ship and structure build rates...however, it is now also a channeling ability
• Missile barrage does more DPS, but lasts a shorter period of time
• Hangar defenses no longer use AM to build SC
• Some changes to the SB upgrades in regards to cost, time to build, etc.
• Colony frigates have slightly more AM
• Culture improves TEC AM regen by .25 per tech instead of .75 per TEC

There are probably a lot of small changes I'm not thinking of right now, but eventually a (more or less) cumulative change log will be produced...

Oh...forgot to mention that I also reworked all the planet bonuses...for one, they all now have a distinct image (half of them used to have that ugly brown cavern picture)...additionally, there's a little more logic to them, and more consistency (ie each planet type has one unique bonus that boosts trade, one that boosts culture, etc.)...

:&#39;(

This is sad day.

What?????  You don't like that?

I dont. But that just me.

I don't know...I thought the whole side-turned thing was a little weird...I guess I always felt like the side-facing thing was a quasi-white flag....

"I'm going to face this way, cause that's where I'll be running to after I get my ass kicked"...

I didn't realize how many forward facing weapons the akkan actually had until I really got close and counted them all...

Kind of late but I only just saw this. I'm planning to do an ability that has a similar goal in mind, but gives a small 1 second (or however long it takes for 1 fighter to be produced) on chance periodic action rather than a constant buff. In effect this is equivalent to reducing the fighter build times as every now and then you'll get one instant fighter, and isn't as unbalancing as suddenly all squadrons getting regenerated.

Its a broadside Seleuceia, there is nothing about surrender in that.

That's an interesting use of the ability...I am going to have to keep that in mind....

The thing with this mod is that SC aren't as...important, maybe?  Not sure if that's the best word choice...

The real concern is, as always, bombers...as of now, I feel they are already pretty manageable with fighters and flak burst, but I'll freely admit I don't have as much play testing with them as I'd like (they're a rather late game phenomenon and are more for taking out only caps)...

SC have, in my mind, always been one of the more complicated elements to work with...real pain to balance...I had some doubts with the changes made to rapid manufacturing, but I kind of like the sort of "in an emergency, use this" nature of rapid manufacturing...fits in with armistice and the (new) flux field...

If you happen to get a good working model of your idea (especially the necessary timing and what percent chance to use) let me know, I'm very interested in it...

Given how game changing rebellion is, I'm considering putting this mod on hold until we have access to entity files...

I'm fairly happy with the economic changes but beyond that I'm not sure if my other changes can or even should carry over to Rebellion...

Corvettes, being an entirely new type of object, could greatly change the combat system and so I see no point in trying to fully develop a counter system when a potentially instrumental ship type isn't at my disposal...and Titans, of course, change the utility/importance of ship types and abilities...

Capital ship abilities are another problem....we have the ability now to get up to 4 levels, and we have new capital ships and we have titans....

All in all, I don't want to waste time doing work that will quickly be obsolete...so, this mod is pretty much on hold until rebellion is out (or the entity files)...it is not dead, merely take a vacation....

Can't blame you there. Might even want to wait until a patch or two after its released.

For those who still follow this, the mod is not dead...

With the release of the ConvertData and Dev.exe for Rebellion, progress on this mod will resume...two points on that regard:

1. Nothing will be released on the forums until Rebellion is out of the Beta Stage (right now that is apparently to occur around June 12)...still, I may open discussions on specific things I'm working on (such as how to implement a certain mechanic)...
2. Equilibrium is likely to head into an entirely new direction that radically changes how the counter system, economics, and general gameplay works...this won't be on the same level as something like Dawn of Victory, but it will be much different than vanilla sins (maybe more comparable to the level of Aplos' Stars Mod)...this new mod will likely adopt a new name, and will probably be moved to a new thread...