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gameplay.constants: DEV help wanted

I'll bump once a week until answered satisfactorily

By HouseRalan on December 5, 2011 1:53:01 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

HouseRalan

Join Date 03/2008
+60

some of us modders are trying to find ways to make the AI's not so completely stupid.  How can we work with the playerAISharedDef section when it doesn't seem to make any sense and dev's won't post information about the values, what the targetTypeCounterData was supposed to be, and how do we make the AI stick around for a fight better by tweaking the aiData: aiRetreatThreshold?

http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/413997

The sum of all values is totally different for each, building ship doesn't help explain which ships get built, tactical devices researched/built and quantities, civilian modules researched/built and quantities, civilian or military labs built, and how the AI researches and just what the hell priority 0.000000 and 1.000000 really mean and if there are values between.  These are some pretty big wants, but 3 years and not much info out there.

    playerAISharedDef
        table-Aggressive [what are the max values for each]
            BuildShip 10 [how does the AI pick what to build?]
            BuildModuleTactical 2 [which get researched/built; decides quantity]
            BuildModuleCivilian 2 [same as above]
            BuildModuleResearch 2 [we've all seen AI with 8 of each and not research much]
            UpgradeResearch 5 [there is a helluva lot and AI fails consistently]
            UpgradePlanetArtifactLevel 1 [X out of ???]
            UpgradePlanetPopulation 3 [X out of ???]
            UpgradePlanetInfastructure 1 [X out of ???]
            MaxBountyBidCount 5 [X out of ???]
            UpgradeStarBase 2 [X out of ???]
        table-Defensive
            BuildShip 5
            BuildModuleTactical 5
            BuildModuleCivilian 2
            BuildModuleResearch 2
            UpgradeResearch 5
            UpgradePlanetArtifactLevel 1
            UpgradePlanetPopulation 3
            UpgradePlanetInfastructure 3
            MaxBountyBidCount 5
            UpgradeStarBase 3
        table-Research
            BuildShip 5
            BuildModuleTactical 2
            BuildModuleCivilian 2
            BuildModuleResearch 2
            UpgradeResearch 15
            UpgradePlanetArtifactLevel 2
            UpgradePlanetPopulation 3
            UpgradePlanetInfastructure 2
            MaxBountyBidCount 10
            UpgradeStarBase 2
        table-Economic
            BuildShip 5
            BuildModuleTactical 2
            BuildModuleCivilian 5
            BuildModuleResearch 2
            UpgradeResearch 5
            UpgradePlanetArtifactLevel 2
            UpgradePlanetPopulation 5
            UpgradePlanetInfastructure 2
            MaxBountyBidCount 15
            UpgradeStarBase 2


    targetTypeCounterData [what information should have gone here and how do we use it?]


    aiData
        aiRetreatThreshold 0.25 [no one has a clue how to work this value]

26 Replies
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Reply #1
HouseRalan
Join Date 03/2008
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December 13, 2011 1:27:17 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Bump

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Reply #2
Sinperium
Join Date 02/2010
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December 13, 2011 2:54:33 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It can't hurt to ask.

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Reply #3
psychoak
Join Date 07/2007
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December 13, 2011 3:45:58 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I don't have the inner workings for it, but the retreat threshold is simple.  It's a comparative force ratio, when they dip below 25%, or whatever you change it to, they run.  This appears to include ships in route as well.

 

How they come up with fleet strength is beyond me, capital ships appear to be vastly overvalued,fighting to the death against superior forces on a regular basis, other than that it seems to make sense from a stat perspective.

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Reply #4
HouseRalan
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December 21, 2011 3:38:56 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

bump

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Reply #5
HouseRalan
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December 28, 2011 1:04:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

bump

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Reply #6
Fuzzy Logic
Join Date 05/2002
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December 28, 2011 7:28:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I changed my aiRetreatThreshold to 0.02 to see what would happen and the AI went mental. It jumps in with huge fleets and fights tooth and nail.

Doesn't stop it being stupid though.

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Reply #7
Sinperium
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December 28, 2011 8:06:37 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I find his logic...fuzzy. Fascinating.

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Reply #8
HouseRalan
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February 20, 2012 2:53:23 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

FFS, no devs with a clue?  Throw us some info.

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Reply #9
Seleuceia
Join Date 01/2008
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February 20, 2012 1:02:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting psychoak,
reply 3
I don't have the inner workings for it, but the retreat threshold is simple.  It's a comparative force ratio, when they dip below 25%, or whatever you change it to, they run.  This appears to include ships in route as well.

Are you saying that its a ratio of their forces vs yours?  Or a ratio of their starting forces vs. what's left of their forces?  I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure it's the latter...

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Reply #10
Sintern
Join Date 05/2011
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February 20, 2012 4:00:36 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

BuildShip 5
BuildModuleTactical 5
BuildModuleCivilian 2
BuildModuleResearch 2
UpgradeResearch 5
UpgradePlanetArtifactLevel 1
UpgradePlanetPopulation 3
UpgradePlanetInfastructure 3
MaxBountyBidCount 5

UpgradeStarBase 3

 

These values are how likely the AI is to build/do that type of thing. Note that its not base on a hard max is base on the total of the values.

ie

5+5+2+2+5+1+3+3+5+3=34

5/34 = 14.7% chance that it uses its resources to build ships

Very high numbers will give more control over the AI but will also cause more lag.

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Reply #11
ZombiesRus5
Join Date 02/2009
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February 20, 2012 4:35:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sintern,
reply 10
Very high numbers will give more control over the AI but will also cause more lag.

Why do high numbers cause more lag?

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Reply #12
-Ue_Carbon
Join Date 07/2008
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February 20, 2012 6:38:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Uping the numbers doesnt affect lag. And really doesnt have a noticeable affect on the AI.

 

We played around with those numbers before internally, me and Ryat. I could be wrong we did not step by step testing. But games didnt play any differently.

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Reply #13
psychoak
Join Date 07/2007
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February 20, 2012 6:42:15 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It probably affects how often they check on doing an action, so the higher the numbers, the faster they cycle through their options.  It would explain why the AI is so piss poor at saving for expensive ships.

 

Are you saying that its a ratio of their forces vs yours?  Or a ratio of their starting forces vs. what's left of their forces?  I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure it's the latter...

 

Their forces vs. yours, and including all coming and going changes to the distribution.

 

They'll keep fighting a hopeless battle as long as they have enough ships en route to make up their deficits in well.  It's why they never appear to make sense, you have to use dev and make all entities visible to really see how the AI retreat mechanic works.  It can be a long time coming before the forces they're using in the decision process are actually involved in the fight.

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Reply #14
HouseRalan
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February 20, 2012 11:04:01 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

This isnt' about the damn retreat, read OP.

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Reply #15
-Ue_Carbon
Join Date 07/2008
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February 20, 2012 11:13:56 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting SemazRalan,
reply 14
This isnt' about the damn retreat, read OP.

 

mmmkkk...

 

and how do we make the AI stick around for a fight better by tweaking the aiData: aiRetreatThreshold?

 

Oh wait. 

 

 

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Reply #16
HouseRalan
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April 3, 2012 8:52:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

bump, this is fucking discouraging

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Reply #17
Seleuceia
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April 3, 2012 9:33:03 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

PM a dev...don't know what else to tell you...

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Reply #18
GoaFan77
Join Date 10/2008
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April 3, 2012 9:42:28 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
reply 17
PM a dev...don't know what else to tell you...

Better yet, test it yourself.

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Reply #19
HouseRalan
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April 6, 2012 7:23:51 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

no shit... really?  never crossed my mind once or got put through notepad a dozen times with no discernible affect. AI is forest gump on a bad day -or wacked on meth.

     table-Aggressive [what are the max values for each]
            BuildShip 10 [how does the AI pick what to build?]
            BuildModuleTactical 2 [which get researched/built; decides quantity]
            BuildModuleCivilian 2 [same as above]
            BuildModuleResearch 2 [we've all seen AI with 8 of each and not research much]
            UpgradeResearch 5 [there is a helluva lot and AI fails consistently]
            UpgradePlanetArtifactLevel 1 [X out of ???]
            UpgradePlanetPopulation 3 [X out of ???]
            UpgradePlanetInfastructure 1 [X out of ???]
            MaxBountyBidCount 5 [X out of ???]
            UpgradeStarBase 2 [X out of ???]

having a clue as to what the upper limits are would help a ton and apparently not even the dev's know just what they are.  As far as the build stuff goes it is a point system like character development in rpg's or when multiplied by some magic number it equates to percentages of how credits/metal/crystal are used or is it just the number of things out of some other mystery number that get built at a gravity well.  who know.  same for the upgrade... is this stuff just the number of upgrades that the AI will make to the planet and starbase...

 

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Reply #20
GoaFan77
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April 6, 2012 4:07:16 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting SemazRalan,
reply 19
no shit... really? never crossed my mind once or got put through notepad a dozen times with no discernible affect. AI is forest gump on a bad day -or wacked on meth.

Many of your fellow modders do that, surely the awesome 7DS team can do just as much dirty work.

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Reply #21
Sinperium
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April 6, 2012 4:16:35 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

...Yep.

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Reply #22
HouseRalan
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April 13, 2012 6:01:14 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,
reply 20

Quoting SemazRalan, reply 19no shit... really? never crossed my mind once or got put through notepad a dozen times with no discernible affect. AI is forest gump on a bad day -or wacked on meth.

Many of your fellow modders do that, surely the awesome 7DS team can do just as much dirty work.

GoaFan, are you contributing anything useful to the thread or just being a troll?  Fork U

 

Here's a new avatar for you, GoaFan. 

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Reply #23
GoaFan77
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April 13, 2012 6:06:26 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting SemazRalan,
reply 22
GoaFan, are you contributing anything useful to the thread or just being a troll?

I'm being dead serious. How many races does your mod add? Compared to all of that I don't see why playing with the numbers yourself is so hard that you need to ask the devs help.

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Reply #24
HouseRalan
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April 14, 2012 2:43:24 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

How hard is it for a dev to chime seems to be the main question.  People have been asking about the AI retreat threshhold for about a year and still nothing. 

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Reply #25
GoaFan77
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April 14, 2012 3:01:27 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting SemazRalan,
reply 24
How hard is it for a dev to chime seems to be the main question. People have been asking about the AI retreat threshhold for about a year and still nothing.

Doesn't matter how hard it is (and given how complicated big programs made by dozens of people can be to understand, it maybe quite hard), they aren't obligated to document how their game works. Clearly the devs have enough time issues as it is with Rebellion due in less than 2 months, I'd rather they do their job and add stuff to the game rather than help us.

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