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Why the vasari are going to be stupidly overpowered in rebellion.

By on February 5, 2012 5:43:16 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

sareth01

Join Date 08/2008
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First our assumptions:

Let us assume that many of the fundamentals of the game will not really change, and that the developers will add only minor tweaks to the actual combat in rebellion.  This is a relatively safe assumption to make since the amount of perceived fear of the developers to not screw up their product is most likely due to the financial pressure stardock is under(which will therefore influence the developer and change the relationship).  Any project that uses fear as a rationale for limiting design decisions in the end will fail, or become severely debilitated.  Once the fear pervades the leadership it is felt throughout the company and the culture changes.  This ensures the failure because the culture that was designed to kick butt has now been disrupted and infiltrated by fear.  This happens in anything undertaken by man and is in no way limited to the gaming industry.

Case and point, we all know elemental bit the dust.  I know it costs $$$ to build brand and at least stardock is willing to actually compensate their buyers in an attempt to maintain a brand that is trying to become blizzard-esque. The people who pressured the stardock leadership to release the game early really deserve some training at how to make good decisions.  Good decision : lets release it when its ready so as to get a triple AAA audience because we made a AAA game, and we did so using less of a budget then a AAA title ought to cost.

Sins is a good example of how stardock and ironclad rock.

Bad decision: we have pressures that mean that we need to steal from one game to promote another failing game because we released it too early.

I don't know what business school your leaders went to(if at all), but when a product doesn't make money for itself, you cut it.  If you have emotional ties to that product, you should have given it the life it deserves ahead of time with effective pre planning.  I know pre planning is hard to justify to investors, but i know beyond a shadow of a doubt that sins had much more pre planning then elemental did. 

I am amazed that you wish to revive the baby, and quite honestly I hope to be amazed by fallen enchantress and I hope to regain faith in stardock's brand.

So how does elemental biting the dust mean that the vasari will be overpowered?

Because of the underlying design strategy that surrounds the three races.  When decisions are made by the development team to enhance the races they will be using their "safe" view of the three races to ensure more of the same sort of strategy that each race employs because the design team has lost their confidence and therefore will rely on their old, albiet outdated ideas.  These ideas were fine when the game was first deisgned, but they are in fact stale as players have already played the crap out of those ideas and have come to a conclusion on what works and what doesn't all by themselves.  To rely on the old mindset, although it is safe and fear driven, is to provide a less effective gaming experience because the design itself will be inherently outdated.  Not outdated when relative to other games in the industry which sins competes, but outdated when compared to itself and where the community is.  So in essence, regressing the game will hurt the stardock brand, and yes, games can be regressed even with the addition of new content.

The vasari will continue to recieve the best "cheap tactic" ideas, quite evident in the release of the news about the vasari titan.  Having a mobile homeworld to me, considering all the advantages this race already possesses, is to me the end of long term sins online games.  Not to mention this will yet again render the advent "super ability" meaningless, the TEC turtling ineffective and It is painful to see the game design philosophy being altered to be centered around titans. This advantage outstripped even my imaginings of how to insanely overpower the  vasari by an incredible margin, and in fact is the single worst design decision for maintaining any semblance of balance.  Is it really cool? yes.  Do the vasari already have really cool stuff? yes.  Do other races need Really cool stuff? FUCK YES.  Why is it that one thing always gets a really cool designer?

I am reminded by the druids in world of warcraft, where they are meant to appeal to hardcore gamers because they can do anything in the game quite well.  Druids in wow are akin to the vasari in sins from a psychological appeal standpoint.  they appeal to players who like strategically superior and inherently overpowered tactics when combined.  the thing is, sins multiplayer is all hardcore gamers.  to appeal to hardcore gamers with one race is to INHERENTLY overpower them.  All races must cater to the hardcore gamers, because sins should be made into an E sport similar to starcraft and an E sport is where the money is.  High balance is what makes starcraft competative, makes it relevant.  Sins developers are more ambitious then blizzard by far, because they attempt to add a high strategy element that is VERY VERY difficult to balance.  To make sins an E sport similar to starcraft would be a disaster because sins is so much more like chess.  Sins would be popular among a smaller group of higher brow individuals, but it would still be immensely popular.

So lets expand on the existing vasari advantages and acknowledging how they most likely will not change, we shall see a troubling one sided play emerge.

Vasari turtle the best of any race by FAR. phasic trap, mobile starbases, mobile mine layers that actually are effective, shield piercing bomber spam... just listing the early/mid game advantages.  With even a small amount of luck the vasari will have a strong enough economy to overcome their initial weaknesses as a race.  IMO, vasari should be less of an early attack race and more of a turtling race...being able to do both exceptionally well with very high probability in variable ratio is the reason why you see vasari so consistently the race of choice in current games.

So, you add these advantages up.

Vasari players will be able to fight with the strongest fleet, and have a mobile homeworld on top of their highly effective and cheap mobile starbases, all the while warping around the galaxy and defending for a moment and then attacking the next moment.  No other race will have a chance unless they are significantly overhauled, which I foresee not being the case due to probable changes in the work culture at stardock, which will then influence ironclad in a negative fashion and change the relationship based upon new pressures.  This will inevitably change the game.

Rebellion will not be the answer to all of our problems, but I will buy multiple copies of it just as i have bought 4 copies of trinity, because I believe in stardock and ironclad and the brand that is being built.  So if you want to flame this go ahead, it doesn't change the fact that I support the developers where it really matters.  My long posts also serve to show that there are people who really give a crap about this game to any casual observer and add value and appeal to the stardock brand.

You don't have to like the devils advocate.

Oh and one last thing.  I want to make it clear to all that I WANT stardock and Ironclad to prove me wrong on all the above analysis. Lets see if they can.

We'll be watching.

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February 5, 2012 6:03:15 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Its a cultural weakness that pervades america, we would say rather let malformed children live full, albeit limited lives, to save ourselves a substantial shorter-term pain. 

I'm not going to address anything regarding balance in Sins multi, because I don't play multi and really don't no jack about multi balance.

I will say that this particular statement here has the potential to draw a lot of flaming. I won't flame you for it, because that would be counterproductive and I understand the point that you are, albeit very very poorly, trying to get across- namely, to "cut products that suck", so to speak.

Using this analogy, however, is an incredibly poor choice. I'm going to say that somewhere along the line, unless this is edited out- and even then, it will be immortalized by my post, someone will come and say something to the effect of "you should hate yourself and die in a fire", because of the quoted sentence.

Just to clarify, I don't think that, I just think you made an incredibly poor choice of words to get your point across.

EDIT: Just to further clarify for any subsequent posters, I'm 99.9999% certain that the OP does NOT actually hold the opinion that the quoted statement would appear to reflect, and that it's far, far more likely that he simply made an incredibly poor choice in terms of how to get his actual point across.

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February 5, 2012 6:14:19 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

hey what about unfinished post do you not understand? I had to transit to work to finish this and you swoop in.  I'm not too surprised that you are ready to take any credit for changes that I make, but lets just ignore your annoying post because it is irrelevant and will only make sense if you view the "edits". 

anyways I agree that use of the analogy was poor, yet i was in the middle of drafting this and hadn't decided which way to go on this.  Naturally your post only confirmed my doubts about it.  Things don't have to look pretty when you are assembling them.

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February 5, 2012 10:25:53 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I know that at the moment the Vasari are the most powerful race in Sins. Though I see the Rebellion beta test period as a great way to influence the developers on how to balance out the three races so that none of them feels too overpowered. They do listen to us, youknow.

Anyway, I do not think that based on the info we currently have we could say that the Vasari are really going to be massively overpowered in Rebellion. The latest interview with GameSpy reveiled that the other races in the game are going to have a few special advantages of their own. Think about how powerful an army of pirate ships can be when you combine it with your own fleet (as a TEC Rebel), or how dangerous it will be to face off with an Advent titan that is able to turn your own ships against you by dozens at once.

All I'm saying is; we cannot know for sure how powerful the ability to destroy planets will be when you face the other races with their new abilities.

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February 6, 2012 12:20:25 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,
hey what about unfinished post do you not understand? I had to transit to work to finish this and you swoop in.  I'm not too surprised that you are ready to take any credit for changes that I make, but lets just ignore your annoying post because it is irrelevant and will only make sense if you view the "edits". 

For the most part, my post was directed at yourself. And there's really no need to play the "what don't you understand about statement XYZ" card. I understood perfectly well that your post was unfinished.

What I also understood was that you had an incredibly poor choice of words for your analogy- one that could very easily bring a great deal of flaming posts down on your thread, and violently derail it.

Quoting sareth01,
anyways I agree that use of the analogy was poor, yet i was in the middle of drafting this and hadn't decided which way to go on this.  Naturally your post only confirmed my doubts about it.  Things don't have to look pretty when you are assembling them.

If you have a doubt about posting an analogy such as the one that you had doubts about- then it is by far better to NOT post it. A weaker analogy is far better than an offensive one that derails the topic of conversation.

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February 6, 2012 4:05:23 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Not to get off topic but since you went there first, Do you really believe what you said? Comparing people, real live people, to games?

Unfinished post huh? Why would you post it if you didn't believe it? Unfinished things don't have to be pretty? Who would use that analogy unless they believed it?

Just because I'm living a "full, albeit limited life" I don't deserve to live? You think I should be killed? So Hitler got it pretty much right by massacering people who couldn't contribute to society? (Not to forget the others he killed, just mentioning what is relevant to this instance.)

Not to jump down everyone else's throats also but, "A weaker anology is far better than an offensive one that derails the topic of the conversation." Offensive? Really? He was talking about genocide against people who can't defend themselves. Don't even get me started on he didn't mean genocide. How many people does it take? How many people in this country alone are maimed, crippled or injured? 500,000? a million? How many does it take? How many before it becomes wrong? How many before it's genocide?

Just so you know, this isn't a flame, it's standing up for what is right. I don't think this is counter-productive at all, why wouldn't you stand up against what is wrong? Also, why would you try to defend your usage of that analogy instead of apologizing for it? I don't want nor expect an apology, I just find it interesting that you actually defended your use of it.

Hate me if you want, curse me, swear at me, call me ignorant, but I want to see ANYONE defend that stance. Defend the fact that, in his argument, I should have been killed because I'm living a "limited" life.

To the devs and moderators, sorry for potentially starting a flame war, ban me or give me a warning if you must, but I don't think that saying things like that should be tolerated and if they are and the defense against it isn't, I guess I won't be using these forums anymore.

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February 6, 2012 4:09:11 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Working out these sorts of issues and balancing the six factions/races is part of what the Beta is all about.

 

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February 6, 2012 4:10:35 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Whiskey144,
I'm not going to address anything regarding balance in Sins multi, because I don't play multi and really don't no jack about multi balance.

If by chance you're starting to get tired of the AI, Rebellion's release will offer you a great chance to get into the online multiplayer scene since you'll probably be godlike compared to (hopefully) all of the brand new people who will hopefully be on.

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February 6, 2012 10:19:03 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

because people don't know how to play as advent and tec does not make the vasari strong. Early game the vasari are super strong but thats just it-- mobility comes at a price and a late game tec fleets will out number vasari or advent supported by desciples for anti-matter will minimize damage recieved and you will say "wtf is this-i have a stronger fleet!". Ask the guys who get there HC fleets and lrf fleets get raped by Masterial with just caps and defense vessels. 

 

Vasari are super strong because they don't need to play nervous but play it calm and wield a powerful fleet. There fleets are small but deadly which means to overcome them the other races nervously rush to storm them with more numbers and ability based advantages. Your tec gets the hoshiko -deadly unitility cruiser and so is a holy trinity for advent with plenty of anti-matter reserves. Its the know how that matters and the fixes in rebellion will make vasari weaker. Just wait and see -its gonna be the year of the advent-the race branded weak for so long. 

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February 6, 2012 10:46:22 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting DirtySanchezz,
Working out these sorts of issues and balancing the six factions/races is part of what the Beta is all about.

 

I'm cautiously optimistic...they've had a long time with the current iteration of the game and still have failed to bring balance...granted, it's actually fairly close, but there are still some glaring problems, and introducing more content isn't like to improve that aspect....

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February 6, 2012 12:51:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Dragoon4ever,
Not to jump down everyone else's throats also but, "A weaker anology is far better than an offensive one that derails the topic of the conversation." Offensive? Really? He was talking about genocide against people who can't defend themselves. Don't even get me started on he didn't mean genocide. How many people does it take? How many people in this country alone are maimed, crippled or injured? 500,000? a million? How many does it take? How many before it becomes wrong? How many before it's genocide?

I was trying to be as diplomatic as possible and also not start a flamewar or derail the thread. That's all. I do find the analogy to be extremely offensive- but I considered my own personal feelings on the matter to be irrelevant in pointing out that posting said statement was a monumentally bad idea.

Quoting Dragoon4ever,
Hate me if you want, curse me, swear at me, call me ignorant, but I want to see ANYONE defend that stance. Defend the fact that, in his argument, I should have been killed because I'm living a "limited" life.

By far, I would never attempt to defend his stance- my own comments were, as I said, intended to be as diplomatic as possible in addressing the issues with his statements, whilst also trying to keep flamewar forecasts to a minimum.

Quoting DirtySanchezz,
If by chance you're starting to get tired of the AI, Rebellion's release will offer you a great chance to get into the online multiplayer scene since you'll probably be godlike compared to (hopefully) all of the brand new people who will hopefully be on.

Eh, I like Sins because I can set it up, and have hours-long campaigns. Usually with a little bit of internal monologue/dialogue (I remember one game where I internally voiced the news services of the capital world informing the populace about what was happening out in the 'boondocks').

Multi has some, but not much, interest for me. It also doesn't help that a fair bit of my gaming time is consumed by other games, like EVE Online (which can be borderline Sins-like, IMO).

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February 6, 2012 1:14:01 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm pretty sure the devs are quite aware that certain Vasari strong points are a bit too strong, mainly phase missiles, and probably won't do anything to make them stronger. At most the titans might be armed with them. Beyond that its a bit too early to say IMO.

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February 6, 2012 2:53:54 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm sure the other races will get some uber stuff too.  It might not be as cut and dry as you're thinking.

It's all speculation right now anyway.

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February 6, 2012 3:10:11 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Dragoon4ever,
Just so you know, this isn't a flame, it's standing up for what is right.

No, its selfrightous ranting.

Just because I'm living a "full, albeit limited life" I don't deserve to live? You think I should be killed? So Hitler got it pretty much right by massacering people who couldn't contribute to society? (Not to forget the others he killed, just mentioning what is relevant to this instance.)

How could anyone be stupid enough to think he meant genocide? He made an analogy. Im sure he doesnt want to go burn down mentally challenged people houses.

We all refer to people we dont like as "retarded". That doesnt mean those people are actually retarded, nor does it mean that we think retarded people shouldnt be allowed to live.

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February 6, 2012 4:01:18 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Bionic man strikes again!

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February 6, 2012 4:34:25 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting JCD-Bionicman,

Quoting Dragoon4ever, reply 5Just so you know, this isn't a flame, it's standing up for what is right.

No, its selfrightous ranting.


Just because I'm living a "full, albeit limited life" I don't deserve to live? You think I should be killed? So Hitler got it pretty much right by massacering people who couldn't contribute to society? (Not to forget the others he killed, just mentioning what is relevant to this instance.)


How could anyone be stupid enough to think he meant genocide? He made an analogy. Im sure he doesnt want to go burn down mentally challenged people houses.

We all refer to people we dont like as "retarded". That doesnt mean those people are actually retarded, nor does it mean that we think retarded people shouldnt be allowed to live.

ignore them like how people learn to ignore my occasional troll posts

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February 7, 2012 2:48:15 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RiddleKing,
because people don't know how to play as advent and tec does not make the vasari strong. Early game the vasari are super strong but thats just it-- mobility comes at a price and a late game tec fleets will out number vasari or advent supported by desciples for anti-matter will minimize damage recieved and you will say "wtf is this-i have a stronger fleet!". Ask the guys who get there HC fleets and lrf fleets get raped by Masterial with just caps and defense vessels. 

 

Vasari are super strong because they don't need to play nervous but play it calm and wield a powerful fleet. There fleets are small but deadly which means to overcome them the other races nervously rush to storm them with more numbers and ability based advantages. Your tec gets the hoshiko -deadly unitility cruiser and so is a holy trinity for advent with plenty of anti-matter reserves. Its the know how that matters and the fixes in rebellion will make vasari weaker. Just wait and see -its gonna be the year of the advent-the race branded weak for so long. 

Vasari have distinct advantages that allow them to enjoy the "ease" of play you tout as superior.  This ease of play is precisely the problem, as it is not based upon player skill, but upon inherent combined strengths of the vasari race.  There were tests done a while back where people online were not allowed to play vasari as a race for one single game, and people were freaking out because they knew that without the vasari inherent strengths they wouldn't even be competitive.  I wouldn't freak out if I had to play another race, because they are easy, and vasari are the easiest to play.  The few times i've enjoyed playing as vasari vs skilled players who had chosen to play advent, i found it funny because i knew every trick the advent fleet was capable of and could just take it easy and not worry.  Advent suffer a lack of options/weak economy.  They go together, as a stronger economy opens up the options.

Also, people know how to play advent and TEC very well.  Vasari are actually the weakest race in the beginning of a multiplayer game.  This weakness is only apparent when they aren't blessed with a plethora of neutrals, which 9/10 times they acquire enough neutrals to make them competitive or dominant against their nearest enemy. Naturally they have to not be a noob and long fight for neutrals at the beginning of the game. Even when fighting for neutrals against other races their scouts are so fast they will hold those neutrals much longer then other races because they only have to build roving scout groups to snipe expensive colony ships( a fix for this would be increasing scout antimatter costs, and initial scout construction costs to bring speeds closer to the other races, in effect reducing the vasari advantage, not wiping it out). after their initial investment of say 10 scouts in the very start of the game and monitoring a few neutrals they can hold quite a few and gain an easy and sometimes massive advantage.  Remember, this is just an advantage gained using little to no skill, spam small group of units, get MASSIVE resource return.  Advent players, having no eco MUST win in small wars of attrition to whittle away an enemy fleet or they will lose.  That takes skill, and every credit is well earned.  Not practicing this "reverse economy" will get you frakked in online multiplayer games and only the most skilled players can really play advent. TEC have a naturally built in cheap economy which fits their cheap and relatively weak ships, so the TEC maintain balance with the advent and the vasari. 

On vasari mobility.

Mobility is quite cheap when compared to when it becomes avaliable. It really only becomes researchable in the late game and you only need 2 structures built to make it work, or one starbase and one upgrade and a building, which in the end game is VERY easy to come by.  When online games reach this point the cost is not the issue, and is not really a factor in the balance, its all about fleet capability.  The end game depends on how FAST you are, since everyone can build more fleet.  The vasari fleet has the firepower to kill the fastest, the fleet movement to attack and defend everywhere, and the best turtling capability.   Considering they have very little weakness at the start of the game, the vasari race is inherently overpowered.

For the record, I play advent quite calmly, advent players have to think ahead the farthest to even have a chance.  Playing advent has improved my game immensely because I figured if i played the easiest race I would never improve.  I rarely play with other advent players online, because you have to be damn good to play as advent to even have a chance.  Most can't cut it and quickly run back to their respective race.  I also believe that is one of the reason advent have relatively poor ally support compared to the TEC and the vasari, with far more situational diplomacy ship abilities and weak starbases, along with the weakest set of diplomacy based upgrades.  Developers even got rid of anima pact, which was useful for making your overpowered vasari allies completely dominate with their bomber spam.  Yet another simple developer fix that makes it so advent aren't even really needed to be team players.  The only way to be a team player as advent is to give your fleet to your allies, help them, be there, watch their moves, time your ships to coincide when it matters.

With the vasari, its easy to help your allies.  Most of the time you just need to build a starbase on one of the important choke points and you are looked at as a savior.  Most cost efficient use of credits in the game.

note, VASARI SHOULD NOT BE NERFED ADVENT AND TEC SHOULD BE BUFFED!

TEC buffed slightly and advent buffed a decent amount.

 

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February 7, 2012 2:46:22 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Did someone sad flame war? ill start

sareth01 wtf did you smoke man. You are talking bullshit like politicians in euro parlament. gibberish

 

 " Tec need to be buffed" lol ... rotlf.... OMG  its  such a nonsense i dont want even to argue with you cause i take it as a troll.

Tec is best at almost every aspect of game, Im a vasari player  and i play tec bad and rare but belive  me when i say me vasari vs me tec whoult be 80% of times tec wins.  that 20% is skill defference and big map dissadvantages.

Vasari was overpowered but become nerfed seriously. Tey are much weaker then tec in almost every aspect of the game ( i will name it so you wont say i have no arguments , so  best lrm , best eco , best  carrier cap , best colony cap , best hoshiko , ogrovos tht counter moving sb ,  best sb with red button , best anti-bomber cap abilities)

 

If vas will gat mobile Homeworld it will be something that repay them the loss of mass controll weapon, kostura canon.

It will stop tec and advent from massing gazzilions of t2 units in 1 grav , and its good for lag , gameplay , skill strategy.

Cause right now, tec  and advent dont need skill. Tec dont even need micro just spamm. Advent needs a litlle bit of micto but its nothinh compare to vasari.

Also you talking about neutrals, but as usualy you forgot to mention its a roulette for vasari. Vasari without neeuts cant survive nither advent nor tec. Vasaru has no any  sicret and ultimate cheap strategy. everythjings cost much more then for advent and tec. I played with you lately and i  see haw well you use advent advantages of skirm scouts, and flaks spamm.

 

stop trolling,  its Stars job

 

PS do you know why i playe mainly vasari , from 3 years? even when lums were bugged?

cause spamming is booooring. it has nothing to do with race power. Cause i would play tec

 

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February 7, 2012 3:01:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

i'll agree that a tec with neutrals is a mean beast indeed, and changes to how maps are randomized would be great.  I've noticed that vasari players almost always start out with decent numbers of neutrals nearby in 5v5s, something around 9/10 times, as i have already mentioned.  The "roulette" only exists in short range, after even a few minutes the vasari will get the neutrals in the middle, as they are always there.  SO, what weakness?  Vasari players just sad that their cheap starbases can be killed by TEC quickly.

And if spamming is boring then why do you love to spam your kanraks quar?  lol you are the one full of crap...as advent you at least have to spam different ships.

anyways i bring up valid points about situations that do influence the game production. 

Developers allowing titans early will throw game balance off a lot, making turtling more effective since repairing high hitpoint high armor ships without fear of loss will always improve turtling.  This means TEC will rock at it, as we already have read, and advent well be so so at it, and vasari will still rock at turtling because, wow, effective mobile starbases + titan = good defense against enemy fleet + titan.  TEC getting an early game titan? yeah they will be able to turtle eco with impunity now and it will probably make them very overpowered.  Considering all the press that the tec titans have got, and now the press that vasari titans are getting, i highly suspect that the advent titans are the last, and quite frankly, the least in the idea pool.  The other cool stuff has been designed and added, and i don't doubt that advent might get a few cool abilities but i fear they won't create the kind of killer combos the other races will have.  I did assume the design philosophy behind the races will stay relatively the same, after all.

Vasari and TEC can actually provide a mid game healing advantage for the attack, and advent fleet support is slow to acquire, moderately effective, and forget healing as its tech lvl 6, costs an assload, and may or may not work as the developers have sucked at fixing this problem for years.

  Vasari turtle till they have supreme movement advantage and its game over yay.  Who cares if the TEC / advent can be uncrackable at one world when the vasari will just pick you apart everywhere else with lightning speed.  This expansion is going to add greater defense potential then even entrenchment allowed for. 

Don't tell me i'm full of shit when you very well know that a mobile homeworld as vasari will be relatively unkillable in the end game.

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February 7, 2012 4:10:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Since 3 years i havent seen anything thats unkillabble in sins. Thats y i still play this game.

Rebellion will be  unbalance untill first major balance patch because it takes time for people to learn and adapt new stratiegies and devs cant much us in creating new ways to use old things.

So save your advent cries about overpowered vasari at least till beta.

 

PS: its good to be affraid. That keeps you sharp

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February 7, 2012 5:55:39 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Qu4r,
Vasari was overpowered but become nerfed seriously. Tey are much weaker then tec in almost every aspect of the game ( i will name it so you wont say i have no arguments , so  best lrm , best eco , best  carrier cap , best colony cap , best hoshiko , ogrovos tht counter moving sb ,  best sb with red button , best anti-bomber cap abilities)

Best LRF is a maybe...LRMs are certainly more powerful and more economical early game, and tend to perform better against frigates (excluding Advent)...against caps, however, late game kanraks are clearly the winner, and if you're going against Advent (buffed with shield mitigation from tech and culture) then kanraks are definitely on top...overall I'd say it's a wash, since kanraks are better late game and against caps while LRMs are better early game and against frigates...

Best carrier cap is also a maybe...Sova rushing is brutal, but mid and late game, the Halcyon and Skirantra are definitely superior...Sovas don't scale well, and embargo only benefits you offensively...meanwhile, the Halcyon and Skirantra bring excellent abilities useful throughout all stages of the game...

Best colony cap is another maybe....the Akkan certainly has the best colonize ability, but the Progenitor and Jarrasul combat abilities are more powerful in combat...that's not to say the Akkan's abilities aren't good, but malice, shield regen, and nano-disassemblers are always useful in combat while targeting uplink mainly only shines when SBs are involved...

You claim TEC has the best LRF, carrier, and colony cap, but that's a pretty tough argument to make conclusively...early game, you certainly are right, but late game the Vasari and Advent carrier/colony caps really shine...and late game, LRMs really don't dominate over kanraks...

I don't know what you really mean by best hoshiko...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean best repair cruiser...but that really is only true early game...overseers are much better late game at keeping caps or SBs alive, and guardians are also pretty good at protecting fleets or very important ships...

All of these TEC advantages you point to have one thing in common: TEC is favored early game.  Late game is a different story, and I don't think a blanket statement like "TEC is best at everything" is really justified...

Furthermore, TEC do not have the best SB (Orkies are much better early game, and Transcencia's dominate the late game) nor does TEC have the best anti-bomber abilities...both jam weapons and TK push are far superior than flak burst in disrupting bombing runs and providing actual SC cover...furthermore, TK push does almost as much damage as flak burst, but costs less AM and has greater range and prevents bombing runs over a small area for a limited time...flak burst only competes at lvl 3 and even then you really need 2 Kol's to pull it off well...

The only blanket statements of yours I'd agree with is that TEC have the best economy and the best anti-module ship...everything else either only applies early game or not at all....

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February 8, 2012 12:59:35 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Personally, I think the comment about American culture didn't go far enough.  But, since that's not terribly relevant to the topic, I'm ok with that too.  It's a culture in denial, as evidenced by the above responses to that particular line.  Denial is always a lethal mistake.

I can agree with most of the OPs points, though I don't agree that the Vasari will be devastatingly overpowered.  I tend to do far better with the advent than the vasari myself, and I tend to crush the vasari quite handily as such.  I think the game will end up being deeply unbalanced if things go the way it seems they may, but as actual strategy and management ability is such an integral part of the game, I think there will still be plenty of room for the other factions to win over even hardcore gamers.

"hardcore" gamers always share one fatal flaw...their strategies are predictable...often absurdly so.  The only reason they get away with it is because they never face anyone with a real gift for it.  They face only each other, and noobs.  They rely on the game's mechanics to do all their work for them, treating like a giant game of rock/paper/scissors where rock beats both.  And everyone lets them do it, too.

So ultimately, I think the problem will be small really, but I'd certainly be happier to see it resolved rather than exacerbated.

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February 8, 2012 9:18:37 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,

Quoting Qu4r, reply 17Vasari was overpowered but become nerfed seriously. Tey are much weaker then tec in almost every aspect of the game ( i will name it so you wont say i have no arguments , so  best lrm , best eco , best  carrier cap , best colony cap , best hoshiko , ogrovos tht counter moving sb ,  best sb with red button , best anti-bomber cap abilities)

Best LRF is a maybe...LRMs are certainly more powerful and more economical early game, and tend to perform better against frigates (excluding Advent)...against caps, however, late game kanraks are clearly the winner, and if you're going against Advent (buffed with shield mitigation from tech and culture) then kanraks are definitely on top...overall I'd say it's a wash, since kanraks are better late game and against caps while LRMs are better early game and against frigates...

Best carrier cap is also a maybe...Sova rushing is brutal, but mid and late game, the Halcyon and Skirantra are definitely superior...Sovas don't scale well, and embargo only benefits you offensively...meanwhile, the Halcyon and Skirantra bring excellent abilities useful throughout all stages of the game...

Best colony cap is another maybe....the Akkan certainly has the best colonize ability, but the Progenitor and Jarrasul combat abilities are more powerful in combat...that's not to say the Akkan's abilities aren't good, but malice, shield regen, and nano-disassemblers are always useful in combat while targeting uplink mainly only shines when SBs are involved...

You claim TEC has the best LRF, carrier, and colony cap, but that's a pretty tough argument to make conclusively...early game, you certainly are right, but late game the Vasari and Advent carrier/colony caps really shine...and late game, LRMs really don't dominate over kanraks...

I don't know what you really mean by best hoshiko...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean best repair cruiser...but that really is only true early game...overseers are much better late game at keeping caps or SBs alive, and guardians are also pretty good at protecting fleets or very important ships...

All of these TEC advantages you point to have one thing in common: TEC is favored early game.  Late game is a different story, and I don't think a blanket statement like "TEC is best at everything" is really justified...

Furthermore, TEC do not have the best SB (Orkies are much better early game, and Transcencia's dominate the late game) nor does TEC have the best anti-bomber abilities...both jam weapons and TK push are far superior than flak burst in disrupting bombing runs and providing actual SC cover...furthermore, TK push does almost as much damage as flak burst, but costs less AM and has greater range and prevents bombing runs over a small area for a limited time...flak burst only competes at lvl 3 and even then you really need 2 Kol's to pull it off well...

The only blanket statements of yours I'd agree with is that TEC have the best economy and the best anti-module ship...everything else either only applies early game or not at all....

 

 

Wrong wrong wrong, all wrong.

I know what is your problem,  and i pointed it already several times. U have no idea what im talking about, seeing sins from your limited perspective. U dont see the true power and right use of abilities  what your post just showed and proved.

That is the reason you souldnt talk about multiplayer balance. U have no idea what r u talking about.

Ill make an futile attempt of enlightin you.

 

LRM-best, early and late game. Do not compare 1:1 to carnaks, its 1,5 to 1. Fully upgraded lrm will always kill karnaks. Ask skilled tec if you dont belive me. Tec has stone armor. And for every 100 karnaks u get 150 lrms. definitly best.

 

Sova- superior to skintra and hallcion. Its not only embargo, it misille platform whith is very very usefull early and mid game and then lv 6 ability, let u  spamm like crazy.

 

Akkan-king of the field. Its best not beacuse of colo abilities. Akkan = no enymy caps on the field , no problem with red button cause of range bonus and, man lv6. u jump in kill something press the button and slowly leave showing emyny a finger. Nothing can stop you and hurt you. Let u run form any heat or build sb with 100 enymy carriers on the field.

 

Hoshiki-superrior to overseer in every aspect of the game. Hoshi has intelligent healing script, u dont have to manualy use oit as overseer ,  and late game can dissable enymy fleet. I assume u have never seen 50 hosikos with demobots

Is much cheaper then overseerr so again if u want to compare, compare 1 overseer to 1,5-2 hosikos.

 

Sb with red button- u know why its best? u never know if it has it or no. basicly u cant attack tec SB with conventional fleet. And u cant hurt it with bombers if enymy has kols and hangars. Avent SB abilities can be see cause u see antimatter of sb. Tec has no sign of rb, no warning, nothing. Its like immunity.

 

Kol and flak burst is also best, Its not about range, its  about combo. 2-3 kols can kill all your bombers and will get xp from it. they will constantly leve new kols if you kill old untill u will run out of bombers. Hellcion cant get even close to this effectiveness in killing bombers and when it will die, u have no replacement. Also bombers will be pushed back and before they will return, they will regenerate. kol dont push, shoot at every bombers volley , deadly and very hard to kill with hoshi on the field.

 

But what is tec biggest strenght ? they have no flaw. Tec has cheap and handy answer for evey treat in sins. And their fleet combo of best units if faar superior

 

All what i wrote about is crucial in MP and  is meaningless in sp.

Again stop talking about things u dont understand as an expert.

When people act like you bad things happening. Look at  present crisis. Its caused because politician started to listen to guys who have no idea about economy , read Keyns and even have a nobel price given from  sweedish commie commity to people who  belive in keyns rules .

What im trying to say is ignorant,  nobilityed by other ignorants with gift of speach can do a lot of harm (in your case, total unbalance of the game)

 

If you dont belive me, talk to other skilled playes, DT , or BIA, or Auqia.

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February 8, 2012 9:35:15 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Kol is a bit debatable due to it's low antimatter reserves and that the flak ablity cost so much. Yes it does its job very well but unless you have antimatter upgrades and have a Dunov with flux field than you will be hard pressed to be consistently relying on this unless you have it at level 6 than thats something else but in MP. Again hard pressed to keep it alive till that level.

I have never seen BIA nor Auqia build a Kol yet either so I can't tell.

 

Lol Akkan Armistice is funny. Build an SB with RB. Leave the system press the button as their fleet tries to kill it and come back in.

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February 8, 2012 10:45:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Qu4r,
Do not compare 1:1 to carnaks, its 1,5 to 1. Fully upgraded lrm will always kill karnaks. Ask skilled tec if you dont belive me. Tec has stone armor. And for every 100 karnaks u get 150 lrms. definitly best.

You have yet to tell me anything I don't already know...very few battles are just kanraks vs. LRMs...when you are talking about taking out a high priority target (like a capital ship or SB), damage is more important than survivability...with equal fleet supply, LRMs will beat kanraks if you only look at frigates vs. frigates...but against high priority targets like capital ships the kanraks are definitely favored...furthermore, if you compare LRMs vs Advent and kanraks vs Advent, LRMs really do not outperform kanraks whent the Advent ships have lots of shield mitigation bonus (+10% from culture and technology, though the culture isn't always relevant)...

I didn't say kanraks are better...I just said LRMs are not better in every aspect...both ships have their merits and the better sniping ability of kanraks should not be underestimated...

Quoting Qu4r,
Sova- superior to skintra and hallcion. Its not only embargo, it misille platform whith is very very usefull early and mid game and then lv 6 ability, let u  spamm like crazy.

None of its non-ultimate abilities scale at all...late game, embargoing one planet just isn't nearly as effective as it would be early mid or late game...furthermore, missile platforms only contribute raw damage (and for late game, not very much)...both the halcyon and the skirantra have fantastic late game abilities that scale, have high utility, and shine even at lvl 1...

The only real nice thing late game about the Sova is its ultimate ability...the other three abilities, while fantastic early game, pale in comparison to energy aura, TK push, or repair aura...this just reiterates my point that TEC strengths are most early game, and wane in the late game...again, never said the Sova was bad, but it only is the best carrier cap in the early game...after that, the Halycon and skirantra are going to do more for your fleet...

Quoting Qu4r,
Akkan-king of the field. Its best not beacuse of colo abilities. Akkan = no enymy caps on the field , no problem with red button cause of range bonus and, man lv6. u jump in kill something press the button and slowly leave showing emyny a finger. Nothing can stop you and hurt you. Let u run form any heat or build sb with 100 enymy carriers on the field.

Again, you aren't telling us anything beyond the obvious...it's no secret that the akkan is good, or what you can do with its abilities...the question is whether those abilities are better than the prog's or the jarrasul's, and I don't think you can clearly say yes to that...malice and shield regeneration are very powerful in all situations while ion bolt and targetting uplink only shine in specific situations...nano-disassemblers also is fantastic throughout all stages of the game for taking out high priority targets (and it makes for the best early game combat colony cap)...

You also are again banking your argument on an ultimate ability...sure, TEC caps have the best ultimate abilities, but can you keep those ships alive?  Repulsion+TK push or reactive nanites+Jam weapons are a lot more effective at keeping caps alive than a meager 20 hull/s from a hoshiko...TEC can only adequately protect caps under very special circumstances, either with a lvl 6 akkan or when on home turf (with repair bays and Argonev with supply)...

Quoting Qu4r,
Sb with red button- u know why its best? u never know if it has it or no. basicly u cant attack tec SB with conventional fleet. And u cant hurt it with bombers if enymy has kols and hangars. Avent SB abilities can be see cause u see antimatter of sb. Tec has no sign of rb, no warning, nothing. Its like immunity.

Good players will avoid all SBs, not just TEC...and if they do attack one, they will rely heavily on bombers...you make it out like TEC is the only faction that can handle bombers which is just not the case...TK push or JW with phasic trap are pretty good at that...the advantage that the Transcencia has is that it can wipe out whole fleets without having to blow itself up...if people avoid your SB, then red button didn't do you any good...and if they don't avoid your SB, the transcencia can deal with large fleets too without blowing itself up...

Quoting Qu4r,
Its not about range, its  about combo

You are aware that TK push stacks as well???  And really?  2-3 Kols?  TK push can do 40 damage...flak burst can do 60...TK push costs less AM, actually is useful if you only have one instance of it, and is put on a ship with other good abilities...the Kol only has flak burst, and unless you have 2 of them it provides no true SC "cover"...I don't think an ability that depends on you having it twice should be rated as "best"....especially when having it twice comes at a huge opportunity cost...

 

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February 9, 2012 8:26:51 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Is this one of those arguments where a modder tries to argue with a pro but can't prove it on the battlefield? Modders should just mod and leave the playing to us.

Tec can rape vasari and this was established long time ago

 

Tec > Vasari > Advent > modders and noobs. Period

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