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Titan are too easy to build (same for novas)

By on March 3, 2012 7:38:03 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

KL3MZ

Join Date 12/2007
+4

Well, i just tested, 15 min after the start, i have my titan

 

this is way too fast as the titans are virtually invulnerable to whatever other players can have at the begining. The only defence is a turret spam, and turrets don't move ^^

Also, i figured the only way to kill a titan would be a massive heavy cruiser spam (as flak dies to titans very fast, the fighters take the bombers out easy)

 

i might be wrong but after testing it in mp, loyalist titan just dosen't want to die.

 

Also, the loyalist nova is ... too easy to spam, its a mp killer, with 2 nova (roughly 20k credit worth - or 15k with the cost decrease tech)

there is no real counter to it since it kills the enemy economy even if they sb'd every planet they have (witch is way more expensive then making novas)

 

I want a disable super weapon option! Or at the very least, put a weapon failure algorythm they're experimental anyway, make em blow up for weapon malfunction once in a while ^^

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March 3, 2012 5:11:03 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Your opponent should have a couple of level 7 or higher capitals before Titans start to emerge.

As it stands now just forgo any capitals and frigates..go straight to Titan and THEN start to reinforce with frigates and caps.

 

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March 3, 2012 5:37:04 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I support nerfing titans as well, just not a heavy nerf so quickly. never the less titans need to be delayed, either by moving up tech tree, more build time, more expensive or a combination with all possibilities. A 7 min titan rushe is just way too crazy now....

thought up one solution to limite titan power :  have lv 6, 7 ,8 military researches, each with three levels, unless u unlock each research your titan is locked at a certain level cap. this way we could have a molitary tree of titan which uses 1-5 to unlock it's construction and lv 6-8 progressively unlock the lvling cap, wut u guys think?

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March 3, 2012 5:50:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

But i think in p vs. p it wont be possible to rusch titans that quick.

At least in a skilled game.

Your opponent have to appy pressure and force you to get units , that way you dont have the ress.  ( around 12k)  to rusch to titan only becuase if you dont fleet you loose instant.

 

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March 3, 2012 5:51:58 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

In pvp we have Feeders. Can easily get titans fast no matter what the Devs do.  Decrease loyalist Titan durability on enemy grav and overall. Increase Rebel Titan damage output. Level 4 titan is too easy to get. Maybe let increase it to level 6 with more research requirement like certain hull upgrades and/or weapons upgrade.

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March 3, 2012 5:53:59 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

A good delay would be to require a joint number of civilian and military labs while moving it back a tier or two. Like the construction of the titan needs to be approve by senate or some bs in civilian tree. Can add pre-reqs to this like more pop, trade or even tie it into the relationship line with other factions (we are making friends while secretly building a giant stick to whack you with ). At least it forces you to expand and not sit and rush it on a few planets. By the way, not too sure if they buffed the planet shield thing but it seems to do wonders against novalith spam (or maybe I'm mistaken).  

I hate the targeting on the titans too. All over the place and spins like its got ADD. 

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March 3, 2012 5:56:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

They need to be pushed back a little.  Instead of tier 1-4 techs, move it to tier 3-6.

 

As for balance, give them time to come up with a fair counter.  We don't want a situation for titans like in Diplomacy where caps just get focused by LRF/bomber spam and die in 2 seconds and lose all their coolness.  They need to be strong, but not to the point where the only reasonable counter is another titan.

Also, using large multiplayer games for balancing is frankly stupid.  You would not get situations in a 1v1 or 2v2 where someone could hardtech straight to a titan and live.  Everything goes out the window when you have a player who can build zero combat units and straight tech to a super unit, and game balance should not revolve around making 5v5s or whatever fair.  If Ironclad wants to, that's their choice of course.  But it is simple fact that you cannot balance smaller games and large games at the same time, unless you have seperate balance based on the number of players.

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March 3, 2012 5:57:42 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

way way way over the top strong.

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March 3, 2012 6:02:48 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

agreed with post #29, in a mp with feeders helping a play can get a titan out pretty fast. in fact due to fleet supply/cap issues a player could get his/her titan out really fast even with out any feed. limiting how titan levels up is still what i propose( needs good eco to backup titan lvling). anyways, it is still beta1 and we havent seen other races yet, i cant see why ppl complaining about lack of content for a standalone rebellion, but for me this is a new game and it will be definetly played very different from diployma

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March 3, 2012 6:04:47 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting lbgsloan,
They need to be pushed back a little.  Instead of tier 1-4 techs, move it to tier 3-6.

 

As for balance, give them time to come up with a fair counter.  We don't want a situation for titans like in Diplomacy where caps just get focused by LRF/bomber spam and die in 2 seconds and lose all their coolness.  They need to be strong, but not to the point where the only reasonable counter is another titan.

Also, using large multiplayer games for balancing is frankly stupid.  You would not get situations in a 1v1 or 2v2 where someone could hardtech straight to a titan and live.  Everything goes out the window when you have a player who can build zero combat units and straight tech to a super unit, and game balance should not revolve around making 5v5s or whatever fair.  If Ironclad wants to, that's their choice of course.  But it is simple fact that you cannot balance smaller games and large games at the same time, unless you have seperate balance based on the number of players.

 

 

Sure you can.   But I would recommend devs not listen to all players because not all know how to play well.  Not knocking newer players but its a fact in all games of any type.  

 

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March 3, 2012 6:07:13 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting KL3MZ,
yep, some people told me the same after i killed their titan, it kept its level, i don't think thats good, kind of defeats the point of killing titan (exept for the cost ... witch isnt so much once you have the techs and the factory)

 

Also, 15min to get a titan is a real problem for mp, even if the titan wasen't invulnerable, i think its too easy

 

Then again, you're right about the main problem being the invulnerability

 

Excuse me, but how is this a problem in MP if everyone is capable of doing it?  I don't see the issue here.  If you decide to place all your resources into making a Titan and crippling your economy from the start then so be it.  the point is, if your able to make one so is everyone else. there's no limitation.

 Also, you guys need to back off on the Titan being OP.  If you nerf the Titan to the point of whats the use of having one because its now jsut a large hunk of floating steeel.  then why even build one if it cant kick ass?. its supposed to be a Monster, that's why they added them.  God, you guys kill me with your whining.  The Titans are not OP. I have tested all of them out and I have had to retreat a few times to save my Titan.  plus you all are testing the Titan against AI that is handicapped right now. its not even working as intended.  No, the Titan does not need any nerfing nor is it OP.  its fine as is.  Before you all start complaining, how about we see the other Titans and test out those and get into some Titan to Titan engagements before we go half cocked on the nerfing.

And BTW, even if you change how quickly you can build one by placing it higher in the tree, you will still have the same issues but now it will only take 30 mins.  people are still going to rush build these. it does not matter how far into the tree they go. it will still become some player goal to build it as fast as they can.

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March 3, 2012 6:08:09 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

so far i think the "raw" titans are fine only except they come out  too early( a level 1 titan takes similar but bit more cost to two caps), the problem is they get lvled too easily and soon grow to an unstoppable monster. a level one titan could still be countered easily if u have a reasonable fleet, but lv3 and above.... @_@

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March 3, 2012 6:12:28 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

To be honest, playing a couple pvp's now on rebellion, I honestly see no issues with titans and where they stand now, infact they are pretty balanced in my mind. It's switched from rushing lrf then to bombers to straight to titan... Bombers are more than a match for a level 2 titan. If you cant get your titan fielded in less than 4 minutes after theirs is built you have issues. My real complaint is the notification system. I killed my one opponent because I researched the titan all the way, fleet capacity, and supply then built my foundry and finally my titan, but he only got notified when I started the construction of the titan itself. That should be changed. Any research into titans should be notified. same with construction of the foundry. It would give you a few extra minutes to catch up.

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March 3, 2012 6:38:54 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

One more thing.

Titan foundry needs HP nerf. Guy I was beating resorted to trying to build titan in hope that he can get it before I get to his HW... When I reached it I started pummeling foundry with 50 lrm, and it obviously took pretty long to take down.  His titan was maybe 95% complete when foundry went down...

Build few repair platforms  around titan foundry and you may very well get titan  before any combat ships.

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March 3, 2012 6:49:14 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think we should wait on balancing the Titans as well. At least until we see the other factions. I have only played against AI and I didn't devote myself fully to pumping my Titan out ASAP. I stuck to my early game strategy from diplomacy but even still it felt fast to get one out.

 

I would suggest increasing overall build time ( the time it takes to build a titan with no gaps for waiting on research)

and pushing the research to 2-5 to separate early game "scrapping" to more mid game "real" combat a little more

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March 3, 2012 7:14:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I would agree with a one-two tier jump up for titan research, but i would also propose it take longer to build the darn things! i mean come on, a ship that size? I was WAY surprised when i researched all four researches, then build the titan factory, then started the titan building. I ignored it for awhile because i expected it to take quite awhile, but when it was done not a moment later, i was shocked. It just seemed too soon for me.

Something like that should take awhile to build, and if the reports im hearing about them retaining level beyond death are true, then the build time should DEFINITELY be lengthened. 

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March 3, 2012 7:23:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

All balancing should be single player against the CPU.

Let you multiplayers fight amongst your selves.

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March 3, 2012 7:30:16 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I personally think the main issue is the Titan is TO CHEAP. This is supposed to be the end all of units and its so easily affordable? I say raise the prices in all categories and delay its tech level and you got it. Also lower level titans are not as intimidating as they appear, in fact I had to retreat from a battle between my titan and a mid level star base because the star base was owning. (Nothing wrong with that)

As for titan armor and damage I think they are fine as they are.

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March 3, 2012 9:26:09 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I hope this game will be balanced around the highest skill performace and thats not a cpu.

At least i pray they do so.

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March 3, 2012 9:53:59 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

stop with the delaying or nerfing of the titans till the advent and vasari r put in place it might end up balancing it self out cuz if im not mistaken the advent and vasari r stronger than the tec and what would be hard for tec to kill it would be easier for the advent and vasari so if the tec titans it nerfed now the advent and varari might end up just blowing right through them and there would be now point in tec building them

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March 3, 2012 10:23:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Darksxx,

Quoting KL3MZ, reply 2yep, some people told me the same after i killed their titan, it kept its level, i don't think thats good, kind of defeats the point of killing titan (exept for the cost ... witch isnt so much once you have the techs and the factory)

 

Also, 15min to get a titan is a real problem for mp, even if the titan wasen't invulnerable, i think its too easy

 

Then again, you're right about the main problem being the invulnerability


 

Excuse me, but how is this a problem in MP if everyone is capable of doing it?  I don't see the issue here.  If you decide to place all your resources into making a Titan and crippling your economy from the start then so be it.  the point is, if your able to make one so is everyone else. there's no limitation.

 Also, you guys need to back off on the Titan being OP.  If you nerf the Titan to the point of whats the use of having one because its now jsut a large hunk of floating steeel.  then why even build one if it cant kick ass?. its supposed to be a Monster, that's why they added them.  God, you guys kill me with your whining.  The Titans are not OP. I have tested all of them out and I have had to retreat a few times to save my Titan.  plus you all are testing the Titan against AI that is handicapped right now. its not even working as intended.  No, the Titan does not need any nerfing nor is it OP.  its fine as is.  Before you all start complaining, how about we see the other Titans and test out those and get into some Titan to Titan engagements before we go half cocked on the nerfing.

And BTW, even if you change how quickly you can build one by placing it higher in the tree, you will still have the same issues but now it will only take 30 mins.  people are still going to rush build these. it does not matter how far into the tree they go. it will still become some player goal to build it as fast as they can.

 

 

 

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March 3, 2012 11:18:32 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You could always push back their deployment by changing the titan factory from using tactical slots to logistics slots. As it is currently you can whack the factory pretty much anywhere. Having it take up logistics slots would make it more of a choice, as you'd be possibly sacrificing trade ports/labs, and it would also make it take slightly longer to get a titan as you'd need more planets for the logistical slots to get enough labs for the titan research. 

I'd also like to throw my vote in for them taking longer to build, and having the research be more expensive, as they are currently far more powerful and cost effective than any alternatives when looking at how long they take to build/how much they cost, and a longer build time would let a player that went for the capital ships/frigates have a chance at rushing and destroying the titan factory before said titan was built and proceeded to stomp their fleet into the ground.

Note that I don't think titans should be more cost effective than a comparable fleet, as you only get one and they should be sufficiently bad-ass, but I feel that in their current state they are just too much better then any alternatives.

When someone starts building a titan you should be thinking that it's imperative that you stop it (Almost impossible to do atm considering how quickly they can be built, and how difficult you can make it for any early fleets by so much as planting a starbase or defences on the planet) or better be on your way to your own titan, as it creates an interesting change of pace in the game. But having them pop up all over the place in the first 15 minutes of the game greatly lessens this, as you have fewer resources with which to oppose them, and it just becomes "mundane", especially when (as in their current state) it is a far better idea to just rush a titan and start levelling it, rather than developing your fleet/empire or focusing on smaller skirmishes and territory control.

Esentially, I feel it should go

Early game (Skirmishes with small fleets, quick territory grabs)>Mid game (Starbases start going up, change in ownership of territory is slower, more marked terrtory borders)>Titans>End game (Large fleet/titan conflict, starbase assaults etc)

Rather than 

Minimum expansion required for 4 military labs>Titan research>Titan>Fleet(for support)/Starbases>End game (Titans plus supporting fleet versus other titans/supporting fleets with starbases sometimes thrown in)

As far as having the titan take longer to build/be more expensive is concerned, it's not so much about the fact that you could still build a titan early as it is that people that went for a more fleet oriented approach would have more time to build up enough to properly oppose a titan, ie it's not removing the fact that some players can still rush for a titan, it's just making it a more even fight between titan rushers and those that focus on fleet and empire tech, so adding viable options other then titan rushing.

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March 3, 2012 11:34:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

couldnt you just make it so you needed more tec's to get the IV upgrage for the titans??
eg. for the loyalist you need kodiak prototype, orgov & repair platform upgrades

and for the rebel it could be LRM, kodiak and menson bolt cannon(in defensive) upgrades

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March 4, 2012 12:23:22 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Seems to me we have twitched from rushing to get lrm spam to rushing to get titans. Why don't you all go and try that first in the most efficient and defensive way possible to be in a good position to avoid death by titan experience level.

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March 4, 2012 12:25:33 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

first off the titan is just fin how it is and second no matter how u set it up ppl will still rush for them and get them within 30 mins or so not a real big difference third the devs even said how to beat them in the interviews lower lvl titans can be killed by fleet and the higher lvls will need ur own titian so they not invincible hell i nearly lost my lvl 8 titan fighting a starbase then the ai finally got its caps over to fight lol and lastly the titans shouldnt nerf the titans till all the titans r in the game

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March 4, 2012 12:30:29 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think making frigate and cruiser types as a prereq for the titan is silly, those ships have no relation to the titan.

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