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Strategy and Tactics for a Beginner

By on March 9, 2012 7:44:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Flibaboua

Join Date 03/2012
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This may seem like an odd thread, but let me explain:

I bought Sins a few years ago, but because of extenuating circumstances I was unable to play it. One day I was going through a box of old stuff and found it, thinking I'd try it out. With a new computer and a lot of time on my hands, I've found myself quite addicted to this game - I don't usually signup for game forums unless I'm REALLY into the game.

So, that said, I'm wondering how more veteran players balance strategy and tactics. I come from the StarCraft-esque RTS crowd, where tactics plays a very important role in the overall play of the game. I tended to shy away from multiplayer because I can't click my mouse a billion times a minute, and when I started reading about Sins (I admit, it was the little "gameplay" tab up above lol) it says you don't have to play like StarCraft to be good at the game.

So I started playing, and I immediately noticed that tactics takes a backseat to overall strategy, at least early on in the game. I thought to myself, this is really cool! Finally, a game where I don't have to worry about who's attacking what! I thought, "hey, I might be good at this game, even on the multiplayer level." So I thought I'd check it out. 

Now, I can't play MP right now because I only have the original Sins - I didn't download it, I have the disc lol. But I want to. So I started checking out the forums here and reading about how people go about their strategies and playing the different races (I'm not a total n00b when it comes to RTS games - I know my way around base-building), because I prefer to turtle and it seems to be working well for me (I've played multiple games on several different sized maps and numerous players and I come out on top every time - even against hard players). But then I get online here and see that a lot of posts are about fleet tactics and managing your fleet in battle.

This struck me as odd, if you can believe that.

So I wanted to really ask the gurus and strategy experts of these forums, because I'm wondering if I'm going about playing Sins the right way. Now, I know there's no "right" way or "wrong" way to play it (except the obvious lol, like all Zubats in your Pokemon deck), but I've read in several places that "turtling" isn't really a viable option in multiplayer. I mean, do people in MP focus their efforts on which ship is attacking which and the like? Or do they play more like me, letting the computer take care of the battles and responding to a win or loss by adjusting strategy?

For me, I queue up my buildings and fleets and explore when I have resources, but when it comes to actually conducting battles, I let the computer handle most everything. A lot of times I'll send a fleet off to a battle and leave them alone for minutes at a time, because I either a) have a well-balanced fleet (I know basic balancing and the like), and I tend to win like this. Is this common? Or is this something that only works in single player, and multiplayer is a whole different story?

I only own the original, no expansions as of yet (and a HUGE thanks to whoever wrote the stickyed beginner's guide, it was awesome...though I actually was doing most of that anyway lol)

I know, there's a lot of questions in very few words, but I'm at work and my break's almost over lol. So, let me try to sum all these questions up quickly:

1) Since battles take a long time, should I try and conduct them individually or let the computer handle it?

2) How long does a typical 4-player single player game take, on average? (I've been playing one for about 10 hours with no end in sight)

3) Is turtling effective in multiplayer?

4) Is turtling EVER effective, long-term?

I have more questions, but I've got to get back to work. Thanks in advance for any help you all give me

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March 9, 2012 8:22:30 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

1) Since battles take a long time, should I try and conduct them individually or let the computer handle it?

Depends the computer auto targets the ship that it is best suited to deal damage to but not the correct tactile course of action so there may be times in which you want to focus fire a particular capital to force a retreat or target to support vessels.

2) How long does a typical 4-player single player game take, on average? (I've been playing one for about 10 hours with no end in sight)
[

About an hour to two hours people tend to rush and GG the most common type of game however is a 5v5 and those don't take much time getting beyond a tech level of 6 is rare as people minnie dump or GG

3) Is turtling effective in multiplayer?

everything in moderation nothing in excess. It's okay to have a few defensive buildings but going over board you cause your death as people go around them.

4) Is turtling EVER effective, long-term?
[

agaist AI yes as the bash themselves against the taticle structures without the right compsition no matter the level. Humans no you in ten minteus given the right group of player you may have 40 lrms knocking on the door at multi. If you turtle they simpley go around or hit you somewhere else.

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March 10, 2012 9:32:31 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ,



So I wanted to really ask the gurus and strategy experts of these forums, because I'm wondering if I'm going about playing Sins the right way. Now, I know there's no "right" way or "wrong" way to play it (except the obvious lol, like all Zubats in your Pokemon deck), but I've read in several places that "turtling" isn't really a viable option in multiplayer. I mean, do people in MP focus their efforts on which ship is attacking which and the like? Or do they play more like me, letting the computer take care of the battles and responding to a win or loss by adjusting strategy?



There's no right and wrong way is a phrase used to explain the unknown outcome of a series of events in the hopes you comfort what answer you have to explain it.

Right and wrong in sins is dependent on the movements, structure and units of your opponent. 

To be able to get a clear picture you must scout your enemy and make tacticle decisions on what to do. The right decision goes a long way into winning the game so you must first learn to find your enemy, colonize planets and asteroids quickly, build trade ports quickly while building as many long range units as you can (all this at the same time): Tec: Javelis, Advent: Illumminators, Vasari: Assailants. Forget about researching weapons upgrades and mining resource upgrades until you have mastered this.

After you can do this efficiently then we can talk advanced stuff like Scout and light frigate attacks, Flak, Repair/utility cruisers and heavy cruisers.

 

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March 10, 2012 10:31:34 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

If you're intro turtling (something I do not recommend by the way) you might want to consider buying entrenchment. Starbases and mines and all...

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March 10, 2012 1:29:01 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I get the whole "expand as quick as you can" idea - I employ it aggressively in Sins. 

But here's my basic strategy for single player (I play TEC right now, 1 race at a time lol):

Build my free cap ship plus some scouts and set them to auto-explore. Build up defenses on my border worlds as quick as I can, researching planet infrastructure and increasing my pop cap, tactics and logistics slots. I like to have at least two hangar bays and a compliment of gauss cannons at each border world. I focus my research on increasing mineral production and economic expansion to begin with.

Come mid-game I keep two main fleets, typically protecting my border worlds as I'm building their defenses and watching what my opponents are doing. Then, as I continue to build my fleets, I move them to occupied nearby planets/asteroids. But I don't focus on what ship is attacking what; I understand how my fleet needs to be built up, but should I be zooming in on specific battles and directing individual ships?

Because right now I'm focusing my efforts on long-term strategy and keeping my territories protected in case of attack.

I scrap my factories and other useless buildings and move them to my border worlds, to quickly build my fleets around there to help with protection.

This work? 

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March 13, 2012 2:47:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Flibaboua,
researching planet infrastructure and increasing my pop cap, tactics and logistics slots.

Unless you specifically need the logistics and tactical slots, its not economically efficient to maximize them on all worlds especially the tactical slots. Only upgrade logistics when you have a specific need (research lab for a crucial tech, trade port to complete a chain etc)

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March 13, 2012 8:35:21 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

static defense bad. dont use them until you gain more experience. they are good to expand quickly

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April 3, 2012 1:13:09 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Flibaboua, great well thought out noob questions.  I wish I had an army of noobs to teach just like you.

I don't know if you can still preorder rebellion or not, but if you can please come online and add "carpetbomb" to your friends list and i'll help you learn the game, and learn the unit counters and basic survival skills.  I don't stomp noobies for pleasure, i'd rather have us both get a strong economy so that I can throw things at you and you can learn to defend properly against the tactics of a rush.  Once you learn how to defend from a rush, you can learn how to rush.  Once you have mastered these, you will be ready to actually learn some higher strategy.  Sins never will be a clickfest like starcraft, unless you are trying to maximize use of an endgame advent fleet.

We can discuss strategy/tactics all day long on these forums, but experience is a far better teacher, like JohnJames hinted at.

The tactics in this game are every bit as important as the strategy, in fact often lead into a higher strategy in a very organic, naturally feeling way.  Its the feel of the game that kicks ass, and to date sins of a solar empire is the only RTS/RT4X i've played longer then a year, consistently.

I look forward to seeing you online.

 

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April 8, 2012 1:05:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Hi there!

I just came to this game and read the tutorial(s) and so one. But there is one question left: What is the best beginner race? I like Advent the most but thanks to some circumstances I came to the conclusion that this race is not the best for beginners. I play DOW2 a lot which is micro-intense so I suppose Vasari could be a choice for me? Or is TEC more balanced tech-wise?

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April 8, 2012 11:14:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I really appreciate the invite, Sareth, and believe me, as soon as I have some spare cash to pay for Rebellion I most certainly will. I've been playing just about every day for a month, and I think I'm starting to get the hang of the basic tactics. Having played Master of Orion II, I'm somewhat familiar with the 4X model, though obviously MOO2 is much more simplistic than Sins.

But with that said, I very much appreciate the comments from all of you as well as the lack of flaming. It's nice to see a gaming community being accepting of new players as opposed to simply jumping down their throats because they're new and inexperienced. I appreciate all the feedback from everyone here

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April 9, 2012 7:50:59 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Thanks for the tips, after going through the tutorials, then jumping into the game and getting decimated, decided to spend some time on the forums and get a heads up. Will now endeavour to have another go with a few tweaks on the game options till I get my head round all the menus!!

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April 9, 2012 8:53:01 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Scythwolf,
I like Advent the most but thanks to some circumstances I came to the conclusion that this race is not the best for beginners. I play DOW2 a lot which is micro-intense so I suppose Vasari could be a choice for me? Or is TEC more balanced tech-wise?

For Beginners I usually recommend TEC. They have a strong Missile Frigate, solid heavy cruiser, the best repair support ship in the game, the best economy in the game and the best anti-structure cruiser in the game (presuming you are playing at least Entrenchment level if not Trinity). TEC starts strong and stays fairly strong throughout though they must solidify a solid lead by the mid game as the late game fleets of both of the other species will be able to beat TEC in a fair fight.

Vasari can be the most powerful in the game IMHO but they play much more asymetrically than the other races. Vasari will never have an equal # of ships in their fleet as the other 2 races as all of their ships have higher Fleet Supply costs than their counterparts. Vasari are the back stabbers and sneaks of the SINS world. They also have some of the greatest late game strategic assets in the form of the Kostura Cannon, Phase Missiles, Phase Gate Network and the Stilakus Subverter.

Advent has a weaker than normal opening and takes a bit of time and research to attain full strength. They can be utterly devastating in late game when you have the right fleet combination (Mothership to recharge shields, Guardian to absorb fleet damage, massed Illuminators to destroy frigate fleets and massed carriers with bombers to decimate enemy HC & structures. Advent obliterates late game TEC however will fall to the power of late game maxed Vasari Phase Missile upgrades since they rely disproportionately on shield technology for survival.

 

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April 10, 2012 8:58:10 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Thx for your tips. 

Had a game with TEC and well... After 20 min I just couldn't stand a chance against a Advent fleet with massed bombers and shield support.  I tried the flak-ships... and they didn't work too bad... but this is kinda devastating and seems to be quite a superior mid-game strategy. Am I wrong?

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April 14, 2012 1:36:30 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

As a beginner and completely new to Sins I'd also like to thank people for their constructive feedback. It's been a good read.

So far I -as TEC- got the Akkan colonizing, trade ports, ect... basic openings, though it seems I need to invest more in the cruisers and frigates, since I mostly amass several variating capital ships and build a Titan which I level up vs pirates and then go stomp the AI enemy. While letting upgraded Hangar Defences and in important sectors a starbase take care of my defences. All in all a rather turtle technique... I do once so far made a spam of scouts as meatshield or some siege cruisers as extra anti-starbase backup.

I'll go look into those repairing ships now, study some extra military upgrades better, build me a Sova carrier and look into the normal cruisers more. Maybe try not to build a Titan at all vs an unfair AI!

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April 14, 2012 6:41:53 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Scythwolf,
Hi there!

I just came to this game and read the tutorial(s) and so one. But there is one question left: What is the best beginner race? I like Advent the most but thanks to some circumstances I came to the conclusion that this race is not the best for beginners. I play DOW2 a lot which is micro-intense so I suppose Vasari could be a choice for me? Or is TEC more balanced tech-wise?

If you're new, definitely TEC.  Advent and Vasari are more micro heavy with Advent being focused on insane synergies while the Vasari rewards...  Idk how to describe it..  It's just different.

Quoting Scythwolf,
Thx for your tips. 

Had a game with TEC and well... After 20 min I just couldn't stand a chance against a Advent fleet with massed bombers and shield support.  I tried the flak-ships... and they didn't work too bad... but this is kinda devastating and seems to be quite a superior mid-game strategy. Am I wrong?

The Advent has the best strike craft capabilities, and yes, Bomber spam has been, and will continue to be really powerful. You just have to mass fighters and flak in response.  A very good combination to have on hand is LC, LRF, and Flak.  Each one counters the counters of another, making it very difficult to stop a fleet composed of such.  Later in the game, you'll want to throw in some HC too.  In your case, Percheron Light Carriers, Javelis Long Range Missile Frigates, Flak Frigates, and Kodiak Heavy Cruisers.

 

Quoting MSWarson,
As a beginner and completely new to Sins I'd also like to thank people for their constructive feedback. It's been a good read.

So far I -as TEC- got the Akkan colonizing, trade ports, ect... basic openings, though it seems I need to invest more in the cruisers and frigates, since I mostly amass several variating capital ships and build a Titan which I level up vs pirates and then go stomp the AI enemy. While letting upgraded Hangar Defences and in important sectors a starbase take care of my defences. All in all a rather turtle technique... I do once so far made a spam of scouts as meatshield or some siege cruisers as extra anti-starbase backup.

I'll go look into those repairing ships now, study some extra military upgrades better, build me a Sova carrier and look into the normal cruisers more. Maybe try not to build a Titan at all vs an unfair AI!

Massed capital ships is usually a bad idea.  The reason is that for their fleet supply and cost, they don't put out as much DPS.  They have abilities.  Now, because of that, they are powerful, but they aren't something that you'd ever want to spam.  When I play Advent for example which needs capitals more than any other, I'll start with a Progenitor, build a Halcyon in midgame, and lategame, I'll finally build a Rapture and a Radiance.  If I've got money to spare, I'll build a second Halcyon, but I almost never build a Revelation.

The same applies to the Antorak when playing as Vasari (my main).  I'll only build it for very specific circumstances however.  My lategame Vasari capitals generally consist of a Jarrasul, a Skirantra (possibly two), and a Kortul/Desolator, depending on how much strike craft the enemy uses.

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April 15, 2012 6:04:43 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Allright, I started a new game 8 players FFA. Doing okay so far. Got a Sova (5) and an Akkan (8) and a new build Titan (1 so far). Got a 20ish LRM and some of those Hoshiko's (15ish). My main opponent at my border is advent, I nicely got his planet overrun, but he keeps sending Illuminators, Drones and now and some capitals at me. I can kill the capitals nicely, but seem to run stuck on a horde of Illuminators and Drones which keep getting reinforced.

Questions:
- In this stage of the game, can I replace the LRMs with a certain stronger type?
- Aside adding more research benefits and building more units, is there a cruiser or other cap I should get to make my fleet more useful? Maybe some Cielo's?
- I seem to lack some siege units. Which one should I get at this point?
- Also, from the Hoshiko's: build as much as you can or just have 1 for each other ship you have for example?


Thank you!

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April 15, 2012 5:19:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I rarely would advise getting Krosov Siege Frigates until you need them when you go on your final offensive.  Cielos are spectacular for taking down single targets because Designate Target increases damage dealt to a target by 40%, so if you're facing capitals or titans, make sure to micro that ability to be used on them.

As someone who doesn't main TEC, I can't tell you what ratios to have with hoho's.  They are very good at healing your ships, though with a lot of them, you should really disable demo bots because that drains AM really quickly.  Dedicate some to healing and some to disabling for maximum effect.

Advent vs TEC can be difficult because of the Advent's strong military presence.  That said, for an opponent spamming Illuminators and Aeria Drone Hosts, it can be quite difficult as those two ships counter each other's weaknesses rather nicely.  I'd advise building flak frigates and consider adding a Kol with Flak Burst.  Flak Burst annihilates strike craft, particularly that of the Advent because they have low health but high numbers, meaning it can wipe out an entire swarm in two shots.

Target the Illuminators with your flak frigates, and for even better effect, fly your flak straight into the middle of the Illuminators.  You see, while most ships have forward facing guns, flak have guns pointing in every direction, so to make the most use of all weapon banks, you need to be in the thick of battle.  Flak frigates also have a lot of health, so they should help tank things.

If you haven't, you may want to consider adding some Kodiak Heavy Cruisers.  Kodiaks deal high damage, but more importantly have a ton of health and can take down pretty much any other frigate one on one.  They act as a great meat shield for the rest of your fleet, particularly your lightly armored Javelis LRM.

Something else to consider is that flak frigates are better against fighters than bombers, though they still do well against them.  Basically, the more fighters they have, the less LRM you'll want because fighters can wipe out LRM pretty quickly.

For a more graphical representation of counters, see here: http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/378976

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April 18, 2012 5:12:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Thanks for the feedback. I thought Kodiak Heavy Cruisers were  too expensive for their value (not as good as a capital, not a direct counter to something I thought). I'll definately look into those Flak units also, I mostly added a few if I went to attack Hangar or SB defences, but didn't really add them to my fleet.

Great link too, thanks!

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April 20, 2012 5:16:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting MSWarson,
Allright, I started a new game 8 players FFA. Doing okay so far. Got a Sova (5) and an Akkan (8) and a new build Titan (1 so far). Got a 20ish LRM and some of those Hoshiko's (15ish). My main opponent at my border is advent, I nicely got his planet overrun, but he keeps sending Illuminators, Drones and now and some capitals at me. I can kill the capitals nicely, but seem to run stuck on a horde of Illuminators and Drones which keep getting reinforced.

Questions:
- In this stage of the game, can I replace the LRMs with a certain stronger type?
- Aside adding more research benefits and building more units, is there a cruiser or other cap I should get to make my fleet more useful? Maybe some Cielo's?
- I seem to lack some siege units. Which one should I get at this point?
- Also, from the Hoshiko's: build as much as you can or just have 1 for each other ship you have for example?

As a person who plays fairly heavy TEC, I can offer the following advice, I don't claim to be an expert but it works for me. You are meeting resistance from Illuminators, Drones and some capitals- here is how you challenge that crew.

1st- in this situation I cannot overstate the tremendous benefit that flak can be to you. Why you may ask?

Many reasons. Flak on a per cost level, tanks nearly as well as the Kodiak Heavy Cruiser having decent armor for a frigate and high hull values for its cost and ease of availability. They will certainly out tank enemy fleets of LRM but LRM don't normally have to tank since they are long range but this is not completely true in the case of Advent as I will detail below.

Flak actually has a higher base DPS than LRM however it is not usually realized as that DPS is spread over omnidirectional firing so that focus firing is much less effective with Flak. But in this case it works to your advantage because the Illum also spreads its damage over 3 directions. The normal Illum strategy is to fly right into the formation of an enemy fleet which effectively lowers the DPS of TEC/Vasari LRM because they spend time not firing while pointing towards their target. So by countering Advent LRM with Flak you can out tank them and negate their asymmetrical fleet attack. In this instance, the Flak has nearly the same damage output as the Advent LRM but vastly higher durability.

Flak also obviously targets the SC produced by the Drone Carriers. Now Flak normally is not a completely effective counter to SC because they have a permanent decreased accuracy against SC. Remember your level 8 Akkan? Please tell me you have at least Lvl 1 Targeting Uplink...every level of Uplink adds roughly 6% range and 5% accuracy to all ships in its area of effect. Normally accuracy is not a big deal but in this case it is HUGE. That means your flak are hitting the SC sooner and for more damage as hits are actually placed instead of missing. Level 3= +20% Range & +15% Accuracy which after accounting for the increased mitigation rates and other factors translates to a roughly 30% damage increase vs Flak. Combine that with the fact that Advent SC depend on quantity over quality and your Flak fleet will be SHREDDING their SC to itty bitty bits.

I like to have 3 waves to my fleets- Frontline, LR Firepower & LR Support. My frontline ships are Heavy Cruisers and Flak that I rush to get in the way and generally tank/aggro the enemy fleets. Then LR Firepower with your support Caps come in to start administering pain with LRM damage & abilities. Lastly the support fleets comes in and moves throughout the other 2 fleets as needed to provide the necessarily healing, buffing & debuffing.

As far as ratios, I find that Hoshis can provide support at roughly a 2:1 ratio, that is to say, for every 2 other ships in my fleet, I like to have 1 Hoshi. You can stretch that to 3:1 if its purely a Heavy Cruiser/Hoshi fleet but I am a definite Hoshi fan. I usually set Half to Auto Cast Demo Bots and Half to Auto Repair bots and manually target the opposite abilities as needed.

 

As For your Questions:

- In this stage of the game, can I replace the LRMs with a certain stronger type?-

You don't necessarily replace the LRM, (although some TEC players do this switching exclusively to the Kodiak or even bypassing the LRM for the Kodiak completely), but really the best strategy is to augment them IMHO. Add in Hoshis, Flak & HC. That fleet with a few supporting Capitals (Akkan, Sova & Marza) will be a nice basic wrecking ball that will beat all but the most carefully crafted of enemy fleets.

- Aside adding more research benefits and building more units, is there a cruiser or other cap I should get to make my fleet more useful? Maybe some Cielo's?

See my answer above for making fleet more useful. As far as Cielo's- see Volt_Cruelerz answer as he does a good job explaining the need for this one.

- I seem to lack some siege units. Which one should I get at this point?

Don't bother with the frigate, just build a Marza and level up Raze planet. At Lvl 3 Raze Planet, You will find that you can take out all but Desert & Terran planets in a matter of 20-60 Seconds.

- Also, from the Hoshiko's: build as much as you can or just have 1 for each other ship you have for example?

See my answer above for Hoshiko ratios.

 

Didn't mean for this to turn into a sermon. Sorry for wall of text, tried to break it up and make it readable. Good Luck from a fellow TEC lover!!

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June 27, 2012 8:42:49 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Wow... that's a lot of Hoshiko's

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