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Thoughts on the Advent titans now that they are live

By on March 31, 2012 8:10:48 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

bilun

Join Date 02/2012
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Been toying around with both advent titans a bit since they were released.  The loyalist titan feels rather lackluster as compared to their TEC counterparts, and the rebel one in additional to being underwhelming just doesn't feel polished. 

 

I did some thinking on possible ways these capital ships could have some of their issues addressed/buffed.

 

[DISCLAIMER: I don't think it's necessary to insitutte a change for every ability or even that any numbers I provide are necessarily correct.  This post is merely the result of the time I spent brainstorming problems these ships have an possible solutions.  If you disagree, please explain why as well as what, if any, you think the problems with these ships are]

 

anyway I'll go through this ability by ability:

Advent Rebel Titan: The Eradica

The Eradica kind of feels like it lacks unification in the vision of it's abilities.  While some are just lackluster in general, a few just don't seem well suited to being part of the same kit.

First ability: Purification

The problem:  The biggest problem with this ability is that there is zero synergy with the level 6 ability, which grants substantial ability cooldown speed and antimatter regeneration.   The problem is once the level 6 ability has activate, there isn't much point in casting this ability as the Eradica is already invulnerable and will die after a minute regardless of hull/shields.  This really means that in reality the Eradica only has one ability to spam when it's level 6 ability activates, meaning the impact of the cooldown speed and antimatter regen buff isn't really all that impressive-especially considering The eradica needs tod ie to recieve said benefit.

 

Possible solutions:

solution 1: here are two ways to go about this: add some secondary effect to purification(and frankly it could probably bear a buff without being made overpowered as while decent, the long cooldown at lower ranks and sacrifice of a unit keep it from being amazing).  One idea I had for this route would be to give the eradica 2 additional bomber squadrons for 60 seconds- that way when it's level 6 ability activates it starts amassing strikecraft fairly quickly.  This route would likely be harder  to balance then solution 2 though.

solution 2:The second way to fix the problem would be to have the eradica's ult be able to activate without the ship dying(perhaps activate when ship drops below 25% hull left?)-that way it would provide a useful invulnerability, during which time purification could be used to heal up.  If this route were use, the ult should probably be made to suspend shield mitigation deterioration during the invuln so the eradica doesn't come out of invulnerability with low shields.  That said, if this route were taken at least 20-30 seconds would need to be shaved off the invuln and an internal cooldown would need to be added to prevent the ship from being invulnerable all the time

 

Second ability: Chastic Burst

 

After the persuasion of a few others and a few reruns of the numbers in my head I've changed my stance on this ability.  So I'm now on the "this ability is plenty strong" wagon. 

 

The problem:  This is a clasic case of "kol syndrom". The ability deals damage an not much else, which means it becomes unimpressive in late game fights(which tend to be long which means lots of high mitigation from armor/shields).

 

Possible solutions:

solution 1: add a secondary effect.  This could be a great opportunity to give advent rebels something to stop fleeing ships.  The advent has sorely needed this for a long time- the loyalists got it in the form of their titan's suppression Aura, but the rebels lack any such tool.  So perhaps have a amx speed reduction added to this ability? or if the devs were feeling really generous perhaps a short duration phase engine disable?  Another alternative route if it were desired to make the Eradica more offensively midned would be to have it debuff the primary target(not all enemies in the aoe, just initial target) with a reduction to max shield mitigation.  The game has a ton of armor reducers, so this could be a way to debuff mitigation which is more unique.

 

solution 2: have some portion of this ability's damage pierce shields(possibly reduce damage a bit to compensate).  This would allow the ability to retain usefulness is late game battles.

 

Third ability: Strength of the Fallen

The Problem: This is one of the most interesting parts of the Eradica's kit, and IMO the closest to where it shold be.  The only real problem is that the radius is so small that it seriously limits your tactical options(you need to maintain a very tight battle-ball to really reap it's benefits.)  While it's a bit disheartening that the TEC's RAGNAROV matches the Eradica's damage output AFTER this ability is fully stacked with just it's basic attacks, honestly I think that's mroe an issue with the Ragnarov then the Eradica.

Possible Solution: this one seems pretty cut and dried- increase the aura radius a bit.  it's by far the smallest Aura in the games(most of which have 4k-8k radius as opposed to this ability's 2.5k.  I'd like to see something like a 3.5k-4k radius on this ability.  Also at the very least units sacrificed with Purification should always proc an instance of Strength of the Fallen's damage buff(which it doesn't necessarily now as purification far our-ranged the aura).

 

Also while not hugely necessary, I think it would be cool if the damage buff from this ability also affected the strikecraft the eradica carries- that would add some large range threat or antiair-capabilities, further distinguising the ship from other titans.

 

Level 6 Ability: Unyielding Will

The Problem: The biggest issue here is simply the basic concept: you need to kill off a level 6 or higher titan to reap it's benefit.  That's a pretty steep cost.  And even then the opponent can just run away from your now invulnerable but temporary titan until the time runs out.  The buffs also synergize poorly with purification which has already been discussed. 

Possible Solutions: Lots of optiosn come to mind on this one:

solution 1: kill 2 birds with one stone by instituting the possible purifcation buff above: have Unyieldign will activate at 25% hull or so, cur the duration to 30-40 seconds, and add a cooldown between procs/activations of perhaps 120 seconds.  This way the ability may actually save your titan.

 

solution 2: when the eradica hits 0 hull, in addition to the current effects give the eradica a large radius aura that disables enemy phase drive engines.  That way while the Eradica is dead, the enemy quite literally can't escape it for the 1 minute it has left

 

solution 3: Add something similar to the progentior level 6 ability: when an Eradica dies with Unyielding Will, the next one you build starts 1 level lower then the one that just died, rather then starting at level 1 again.  this would make Eradicas semi-expendable compared to other titans, encouraging advent rebel players to try to "tread" titans with their opponents.  I think some degree of losses is necessary(hence the 1 level lower aspect) to prevent a gurranteed level 6 or higher eradica for the remainder  of the game, but the principal is a good one.

 

 

[NOTE: the Coronata is discussed in the next post]

 

 

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March 31, 2012 8:11:09 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Advent Rebel Titan: The Coronata

As a whole I think the Coronata is closer to where it should be as a titan.  Suppression Aura is an outstanding ability(I'm not even going to bother discussing it as it needs absolutely no buff).  Subjugating assault is very close to where it should be, and the level 6 ability accomplishes it's purpose nicely.  The only ability that doesn't really feel like it fits in Unity mass, which also feels a bit underwhelming.

First ability: Subjugating Assault

The problem:  The main problem with this ability is that it does nothing if the enemy doesn't bring a significant contigent of frigates/cruisers, which is increasingly likely as most people don't bring many of these smaller ships to play with a titan, for fear of simply feeding the beast(unless perhaps they have enough massed carriers to prove a mortal threat to the titan i nwhich case a few stolen ships won't matter much).  Additionally it would be nice if this ability were a bit more consistent.  Sometimes it procs a lot, whereas others it just wastes antimatter.

 

Possible solutions:

Really I think there needs to be an alternative effect to the domination that can proc on on capital ships and perhaps at a reduced effect on titans.  Perhaps granting attacks a chance of removing antimatter from the target or providing an interrupt.  Nothing that reduces attack damage methinks(as suppression Aura already does that).  But make the ability do something against capship heavy fleets.


Second Ability: Suppression Aura


Absolutely no buffs necessary. The only thing keeping it fdrom being overpowered is the relatively small effect radius.  No changes necessary IMO.


Third ability: Unity Mass

The Problem: This ability is basically a longer cooldown(over twices as long, around 3-4 times as long at higher ranks of snipe) shorter range(about 1/4 of the range) version of the Ragnarov's snipe ability that requires a large fleet to deal it's full damage.  The damage is slightly higher then snipe(something like 33% at rank 1 down to 15% at higher ranks), though at each increase in rank the amount of ships in fleet required to match snipe's damage increases.  The ability just feels worse in general.

Possible Solution: Honestly I'd rather not just see a damage buff.  IMO the Corronata is supposed to be more of a support-utility titan then a superstar in it's own right.  Consequently I'd like to see a secondary effect added to this ability(ideally that scales with the number of ships contributing) even if some damage has to be sacrificed to see this happen.

 In general those the solutions to this ability are numerous and all equally viable.   Unliek many of the problems on the Eradica, this issue is just a matter of "the numbers are too low", rather then the ability fitting into the ship's kit poorly or possessing any intrinsic problems.  As a result this issue could be addressed with any number of number buffs.  i'd merely prefer a secondary effect as a solution as it better suit's the Coronata's role as a supporter.

 

Also while not hugely necessary, I think it would be cool if the damage buff from this ability also affected the strikecraft the eradica carries- that would add some large range threat or antiair-capabilities, further distinguising the ship from other titans.

 

Level 6 Ability: Repossession

Fine as is.  it accomplishes it's purpose well enough.

 

 

 

 

 

In Conclusion:


WHile the kits(particularly that of the Eradica) do need a few things Ironed out, I love the basic design of both of the Advent titans.  With a few changes they could easily well be on par with the existing TEC titans.  In anycase, please discuss and contribute your own thoughts on the two newest(well for those of use who hadn't had access to advent before now) revealed titans.

 

 

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March 31, 2012 8:35:35 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

In response to the Eradica post:

From what I can see the eradica is designed to deal with the hardest targets in the game, a vasari fleet + titan + starbase that is dug in.

In diplomacy the advent have no real ability to even hope to attack this dug in foe.  Now with the eradica the advent can suicide their titan and hopefully take out a lot of the enemy fleet, at least in theory. 

I agree with the OP though, the final ability is lackluster and needs some work...I Like your idea about it having an invulnerability shield for a lower duration...this should be under player control so that you can actually retreat effectively.  This should also ensure that the eradica can retreat, even under phase jump inhibition.  Since its a lvl 6 ability, this won't be around early on.  This would make a lot more sense and ensure that the ultimate ability is a game changer, instead of a temporary buff that is totally under your opponents control(and therefore this ability becomes marginal at best). 

This could be the "paladin" of the sins world, go in, take out some enemy fleet, and get your butt back in one piece.  Yet unlike a Wow paladin, it doesn't heal itself...so balance is maintained.  Since retreating reduces Am the ship will become vulnerable if it is too far from home.  I don't see any way this could be imbalanced.

No matter how tough the defenses, the rebel advent fleet will always be able to strike at you.  With this idea there are many more interesting and versatile options, and this makes the "super ability" seem "super". 

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March 31, 2012 8:49:21 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I completely agree with you on the Eradica. I've played a few games now legitimately using it and I have to say I'm finding it unremarkable, at least compared to the Tec Titans.

 

Purification is an ability I'll probably never use, because as you said it doesn't synergise with anything nor do I find it particularly interesting, if it could be used against enemy ships that would be a 100% different story however.

 

Chaotic Burst, yeah I hear you on the Kol thing. Really the only thing I like about this vs the Rebel Tec's Titan is that you don't need to aim the entire ship, which is nice. So far this is the only ability I *semi* like for this Titan.

 

Strength of the Fallen, As you pointed out the range for this is pitifully small and needs adjustment. I know that the Tec Loyalist's Titan's level 6 is gravity well wide and personally I wish this was as well at the minimum with some sort of useability buff as well.

 

Unyielding Will, I think this is one of those nice in theory but horrible in practice, there is never going to be a point where I want my Titan to die (even if they do retain levels after being rebuilt, bug or feature?) so I find this ability extremely moot. I understand the whole M.A.D concept but against players that simply isn't going to work and against AI well I still find it worthless.

 

The last thing I would add is this, I know Advent are the Synergy race and their ships are to be used in combination with others but still, looking at the base stats of the Eradica vs the Rebel Tec Ragnarov I find the damage differences between them to be massive so either the Abilities them selves need to be buffed a bit and/or the base ship DPS could use a buff. I mean a level 10 Ragnarov is a fearsome sight for base stats alone, not even including decent spells including Overcharge being buffed this patch, while the Eradica even at level 10 just doesn't give me that feeling.

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March 31, 2012 8:52:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Kiiiiind of disagree with Chaotic Burst, it's spammability makes it downright scary when mixed with Malice, throw in a Fracture/Scream spamming Discord for good measure and hey! It's a jubilee celebration, and your enemy's support frigates/cruisers are providing the fireworks!

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March 31, 2012 9:00:29 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

To those advocating the current Chastic Burst: Good point, in all honesty that's probably the ability I though the least about(as I said I had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to as I pull it "Kol-syndrom").  I may very well have underestimated the potency of it's AoE.

 

Perhaps I'll add something to the OP noting that changes to this ability are likely the least pressing and of debatable necessity.

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March 31, 2012 9:05:34 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

[quote who="Mr. Haze" reply="4" id="3118064"]Kiiiiind of disagree with Chaotic Burst, it's spammability makes it downright scary when mixed with Malice, throw in a Fracture/Scream spamming Discord for good measure and hey! It's a jubilee celebration, and your enemy's support frigates/cruisers are providing the fireworks!
[/quote]

Yes, the advent fleet synergy is now very noticable, I am really enjoying how they play so far. 

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March 31, 2012 9:09:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Mr Haze,
Kiiiiind of disagree with Chaotic Burst, it's spammability makes it downright scary when mixed with Malice, throw in a Fracture/Scream spamming Discord for good measure and hey! It's a jubilee celebration, and your enemy's support frigates/cruisers are providing the fireworks!

(I removed your ..)

I also strongly disagree. What I fear most about the ART is if it is accompanied by a few corvettes (Return of the Fallen) and you have a Propagator and the new Advent Capital ship. At this point, it becomes a steamroller, especially if it is constantly under the influence of guidance.

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March 31, 2012 10:27:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Lets table this discussion until the Advent are fully released.

Someone goofed and didn't release the right update.

http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/420904

 

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March 31, 2012 11:58:35 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ryat,
Lets table this discussion until the Advent are fully released.

Someone goofed and didn't release the right update.

http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/420904

 

 

Ah, I had not yet seen that rather key bit of info.  Think I should nuke my OP?(of course saving it locally for the possibility that not much changes before the actual release)

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April 1, 2012 12:13:15 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Na, keep it.  Its usable feedback, it is why we are beta testing in the first place.

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