Sins of a Solar Empire : Real-Time Strategy. Unrivalled Scale.
© 2003-2016 Ironclad Games Corporation Vancouver, BC. All rights reserved.
© 2006-2016 Stardock Entertainment

Addition of Titans possibly hurting Sins gameplay and balance

By on April 6, 2012 9:19:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Nightraid3r

Join Date 04/2008
+20

When I first heard about the titans, I was very excited about the concept.  After a few weeks of playing around with them, I am nowhere near as excited as I used to be.  The problem is they are not a strong addition for multiplayer.

The reason is the game is becoming a giant game of "don't feed the titan".  With Permanent xp and levels, there is every incentive for a player to risk his titan to kill a ton of frigates just to level it up.  As a result players are afraid to bring in frigates until LATE LATE LATE LATE LATE game for fear of leveling the other players titan too high.  Also, players are rushing the pirate base for experience and the guy who gets the level 3 titan from killing the pirate ships has a massive advantage.

Please, don't try to argue the "well if he goes to the pirate base, hes vulnerable elsewhere".  I thought that too, but sins is slow paced enough where you can't deal a decisive blow while he is leveling his titan.  Also, you may argue that suiciding your titan because of the cost and build time is foolish but if you take out enough ships to gain a level or 2, it was well worth it, because even if your opponent starts to push on you, you just bring your titan back out into play even more powerful than before and continue leveling it.

The only real and reasonable solution is to make it so xp and levels DO NOT carry over upon death.

 

Locked Post 172 Replies +1
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 6, 2012 9:26:54 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You multiplayer people need to stop trying to ruin the fun for those who play SP only.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 6, 2012 9:27:32 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I agree, though perhaps another way of giving titans experience would also work. As it is now capitalships have an advantage because they aren't titan fodder, but they also lower the rate your titan gets XP. If titans were to stop getting XP from ships and instead, as an uncreative example, just slowly gained XP as time went on, players wouldn't have any disincentive to use frigates while keeping titans a priority target.

Another option would be to make titans take much longer to build either every time they are rebuilt or as they gain levels, so that other players have more time to take advantage of you being reckless with your titan.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 6, 2012 9:39:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Polistes,
You multiplayer people need to stop trying to ruin the fun for those who play SP only.

I agree with the OP and I play single player only, simply put, having Titans retain their XP and Level is ludicrous, it goes against everything in the game. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 6, 2012 9:59:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting wbino,

Quoting Polistes, reply 1You multiplayer people need to stop trying to ruin the fun for those who play SP only.

I agree with the OP and I play single player only, simply put, having Titans retain their XP and Level is ludicrous, it goes against everything in the game. 

I have to agree as well.  Losing a titan should be a big deal, but it's basically just a slap on the wrist.  While you can argue that it prevents getting steamrolled if you lose your titan, since you can bring it back at full power; I argue that losing your 10000+ credit investment SHOULD be a massive loss.  The game needs to end at some point, no?  The real problem is that titans are basically required to fight other titans.  Killing an enemy titan needs to viable with just caps and frigates.  As OP says, you basically have to keep smaller ships away because they just feed the monster.  This does not make any sense for balance or 'realism'.  Your titan blew up, why does it come back with a fully trained crew?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 6, 2012 10:12:21 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The only real and reasonable solution is to make it so xp and levels DO NOT carry over upon death.

Agree as well. The only other solution is to nerf the Titan into oblivion. And that is a no no.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 6, 2012 11:39:38 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Make the Titans vulnerable to anti- structure ships and make corvettes anti- structure ship killers. 

But the keep level thing has to go.

I just killed your Titan, as long as you have the resources, 5 minutes later your out with your brand spanking new, leveled up, Titan ready for round two?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 6, 2012 11:46:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

No, if you make the Titans lose all lvl's than it would eliminate whoever loses their titan first. The best idea would be that the titan loses 1.5 lvls of xp per death. So you get no benefit from the sacrifice while still letting you risk your titan.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 6, 2012 11:52:19 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I have to agree that titans retaining their levels is necessary.  Otherwise the game snowballs out of control as soon as someone loses a titan.  Honestly while that titan may be rebuilt at full level, the guy who killed the titan has a full 7-10 minutes(depending on game build speed) of relatively unobstructed planet conquest(you have a titan and they don't).

 

 

That said there really should be a titans disabled game mode.  And while they're at it, upon the game's release & the implementation of any ELO system/matchmaker I think there should be a seperate Queue & ELO for titans enabled/disabled.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 6, 2012 11:57:52 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Chronobomb,
No, if you make the Titans lose all lvl's than it would eliminate whoever loses their titan first. The best idea would be that the titan loses 1.5 lvls of xp per death. So you get no benefit from the sacrifice while still letting you risk your titan.

This seems like a reasonable solution. It would eliminate the early sacrifice for xp since it would effectively lose them all that they gained, but wouldn't completely screw the late game person who loses their titan. Good call chronobomb.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 12:27:59 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

What if they didn't get any XP at all through combat, only purchased levels, very expensive levels?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 12:28:08 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Losing a titan wouldn't completely screw someone if it had other counters besides a titan.  Titans are strong, and should be strong, but basing everything around them is completely stupid.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 12:28:16 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Have the devs mentioned if this permanent titan level is going to be kept? It may just be to test the higher levels to see if the game retains balance.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 12:59:30 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Good time for feedback on this during the beta.  I also think keeping the XP is not the way to go.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 1:09:00 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting wbino,
What if they didn't get any XP at all through combat, only purchased levels, very expensive levels?

This is the method I prefer...I does not prevent a player who loses their titan from recovering but still encourages Frigate fleets to fight Titans....

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 5:20:23 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Thanks to the reduced effectivity of AA weapons on Titans bombers now do horrible, horrible things to them when in sufficient numbers. My Akkan or Progenitor would basically the only thing needed backing up my defensive structures even versus higher level Titans. While playing offensively carriers and carrier-Caps are the way to go now, circle the gravitywell while your bombers wear the Titan down or take some battleships with you and face them directly. I don't really need Ogrovs to kill those buggers...

 

As for Titans retaining their levels, while I understand the thought behind it (I think the real meaning behind it is how it takes ages to gain rank starting with... level 4 or 5) I don't think it's neccesary. A lower level Titan might not keep up with a higher level Titan, but since you can take along proper escorts, use starbases as support or lure them into defended positions you can still overwhelm them even if your Titan is weaker.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 6:58:56 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

My vote is for them to lose 2 levels per death

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 7:16:15 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Just don't keep experience. Why should they? Does the crew resurrect? The other suggestions are just... nonsensical.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 7:33:54 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I concur. Titans shouldn't keep their XP, but also if destroyed next titan should take 2x time to build to give winning player better chance to strike decisive blow. There are way too many "titan stalemates" now because titans in defensive positions are so hard to take out.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 8:36:29 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting 137,
Just don't keep experience. Why should they? Does the crew resurrect? The other suggestions are just... nonsensical.

 

With Advent Rebels, you never know  

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 8:58:15 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It would be awesome if the Advent's resurrection ability worked on titans though.  I lile MechaLenin's idea about having them take longer to build so strategic strikes can be made.

It also would be great if at each research stage completed a voice warning was given..."Another player has finished the first stage of a new weapon type.".

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 9:02:11 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Timmaigh,
Quoting 137, reply 17Just don't keep experience. Why should they? Does the crew resurrect? The other suggestions are just... nonsensical.

 

With Advent Rebels, you never know  

That would be an arguement of why you should keep your exp on death. The Advent Rebels titan ultimate requires you to die to use it. It would be severely gimped if you just reseted to 1 after you used it.

The idea of purchasing levels wouldn't work so well in a standard MP 5v5 or maybe 4v4 because it becomes a game of "who can get the best eco and feed themselves and their teammates levels". The eco slot would be the most dominate factor and possible overpowered in this case.

I actually believe that Titans should retain their levels on death on the basis of having some sort of way to rebound against another. A level 1 titan is no match for level 4 or higher and etc. Titans should at least have a 1.5 to 2 times increase in cost and build time after death though. That should be implemented.

I think we are focusing too much on how to nerf the titan rather we should actually think of ways to buff the rest of the ships so that they at least stand a fighting chance. Bomber spam now works at least now ever since flak got nerfed but that should be the extent of titan nerfs.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 9:13:03 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Make each faction's heavy cruiser have an additional ability to suicide RAM titans and cause them to lose a level with each hit.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 9:29:28 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Instead of a flat reduction of levels, say 1.5 or 2 as suggested, I think a percentage would be better, or perhaps something that is based on total exp instead of the level. Something like... four and below, you take a light slap on the wrist if you die, so titans will always remain competitive with a few upgrades points, even if getting slaughtered. At level 10, however, expect to lose somewhere between a level or two in exp if it dies.

I feel 2 level reduction per death, regardless of current level, would be an over correction, and could result in the same problems associated with knocking the titan back to level 1, just in a more subtle process.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 9:42:39 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

2 Suggestions:

1) When a Titan spends its ability points, make it take some time for them to 'come online', just like when I purchase extra firepower and defense for a Starbase, it is not instantly there, it takes time for the purchase to complete before that firepower is available.  If you do this, you can keep the levels and xp after Titan death (which you probably need to have to some degree b/c there is no way after losing a Titan to a Titan the other player would have any hope of recovery), but it will be slower, much slower for a rebuilt Titan to get back to its full strength.  This also will slow a 'virgin' Titan a bit as it gains exp - you can still throw a level 1 Titan into someone's fleet this way, and get the xp as it kills some ships, but the extra firepower/abilities won't immediately be there snowballing and allowing you to stomp a really big frigate fleet into the ground right off the bat.

2) Change the theme of the release from 'Rebellion' to 'Release the Kracken!' 

Disclaimer - I've been exclusively playing vs the AI for years, and I can see the whole multiplayer balance is going to be pretty tough for anyone to sort out.  Humans are just so damn tricky.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2012 9:44:14 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Just a thought, but the bombers being able to kill titans easier fits in with some things from star wars.  Both death stars were destroyed by either fighter/bomber x-wings, or a slightly bigger cruiser.  What if we could give a ship class the ability to heavily damage a titan?  A very small chance, though.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #101114  walnut1   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000641   Page Render Time: