Sins of a Solar Empire : Real-Time Strategy. Unrivalled Scale.
© 2003-2016 Ironclad Games Corporation Vancouver, BC. All rights reserved.
© 2006-2016 Stardock Entertainment

The Deliverance Engine..An Idea

By on May 14, 2012 4:35:42 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Sinperium

Join Date 02/2010
+213

We all keep bringing this up as this is the hardest to effectively use and easiest to counter "superweapon" but I had an idea (unfortunately I am not sure they can implement it).

There are advantages in Rebellion with the Advent factions bonuses to hitting a planet with a Deliverance engine as you attack it.  Takes a little microing and timing but it's there.

Still--not much of a superweapon.

The culture effect of the DE is really easily countered and almost useless (not quite--but almost).  So that doesn't do much in the "super" category either.

I had the thought that if the DE could be made to either effect all in the gravity well or have the ability to target them specifically, that making a hit by a DE capture the enemy culture centers within that gravity well...well, we might be onto something.

Advent can already force players to maintain culture centers as they are very vulnerable to Advent without them.  That makes enemy culture centers essential defensively and forces expenditure on them.

By taking them  at a particular planet, you do the following:

  • Rob the player of the resources spent.
  • Force him to re-spend to replace them.
  • Tie up his constructors either tearing down or rebuilding the centers.
  • Jam his available resource slots so new construction of modules is delayed.
  • Make his planets suddenly more vulnerable to culture overthrow.

I know it doesn't sound like a lot but in an aggressively fought match with close margins it could be devastating.  It also is very in-character and logical for the Advent--overwhelming enemy culture bases and pushing their own messages through.

Just a thought. I'm also wondering with the modder's out there if they think this could be modded in?

Thoughts anyone?

 

Locked Post 47 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 17, 2012 1:53:38 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinperium,
Definitely don't want it as a permanent effect--just the initial hit. As I played it, that's what it did. So I'm a bit confused here as to what is or isn't working? For me, it seems to be functioning as an instant action--is it actually checking periodically after? If so, it isn't producing any effect.

Again I haven't actually run this thing, but it looks like he's doing a periodic action for the duration of the DE's culture effect, so that if the AI actually built another culture center while its active it would switch control. Even if it isn't working though there is definitely a periodic action in his buff, which should be replaced with an instant action unless there is an intentional reason to want its effect to continue.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 17, 2012 2:17:21 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinperium,
Yeah--feel your pain there. Rebellion does provide a lot more modding possibilities.

Actually, this is possible in Trinity.  It's just the buff chain becomes significantly more complex.  Take a look at my Grey Goo ability.  That sort of a buff chain is what would have been necessary if Rebellion didn't add conditional buffs.  It was still possible, but it's wildly inefficient because you have to have a dozen different buffs applying and removing each other to get it to work properly.  Of course, the slowdown from Grey Goo was primarily the fact that it was a fork bomb, but still. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 17, 2012 2:28:31 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The grey goo is really fun--unfortunately it is the lag beast from hell once it gobbles enough ships up.

I prefer the instant over periodic for the same reasons Goa does.

How much does it cost to rent Volt?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 17, 2012 3:26:47 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinperium,
The grey goo is really fun--unfortunately it is the lag beast from hell once it gobbles enough ships up.

I prefer the instant over periodic for the same reasons Goa does.

How much does it cost to rent Volt?

lol I'm desperately trying to find a summer job right now, so if you actually paid me, I'd basically be modding for you full time lol.  Somehow I doubt that happening though.    All the same, if you have anything you'd like help with, just PM me.

 

Also, I just tried it with an instant application and it didn't work.  I'm assuming this has to do with the way that cannon shell buffs are applied.  Weird...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 17, 2012 3:40:21 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,
Also, I just tried it with an instant application and it didn't work. I'm assuming this has to do with the way that cannon shell buffs are applied. Weird...

Did you switch it from AlwaysPerform to OnDelay? AlwaysPerform doesn't work with instant actions in buffs most of the time. Only in abilities for some reason.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 17, 2012 3:48:22 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Thanks Volt.  Heck, if I could afford to pay people to do the work for me I would.

That's really interesting about the instant action things--that is weird.  Carp like that is what makes me be so slooow at modding.  Stinking, filthy carp.

Most of the abilities I made for Diplomacy are far better in Rebellion so when I get the time I am going to start going through the Rebellion files and cherry-picking..  Less workarounds and bugged entities.

I kid a lot about "do it for me" but I'll post on the thread a wishlist of abilities I want or have broken and you can decide if anything there is worth the time.

Originally, my evil plan was to use my Makerbot to custom print modder's models in return for mod work.  If I can fix the thing (take it apart, replace a part and rebuild it) I'll be doing that.  Darn grown-up life isn't leaving a lot of room for my hobbies.

It's pretty ironic, the mod I am working on is a race with a single primary ship, that wasn't centered on a HW and then they let Rebellion out--perfect synchronicity for me.

Good luck on the summer job.

And how did Goa get so smart?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 17, 2012 4:44:15 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 29Also, I just tried it with an instant application and it didn't work. I'm assuming this has to do with the way that cannon shell buffs are applied. Weird...

Did you switch it from AlwaysPerform to OnDelay? AlwaysPerform doesn't work with instant actions in buffs most of the time. Only in abilities for some reason.

Ah, forgot about that part.  Fixed:

http://www.mediafire.com/?v5ihxptiojv68bs

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 17, 2012 5:24:01 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oh yippee. Thanks mate.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 18, 2012 4:45:27 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Sinperium, I actually had an idea like that ,too, to convert the enemy's broadcast centers. But then I thought that, though the enem- wait... the topic is already done? The mod is already made? Nevermind then.

But to add some actual worth to posting, you mentioned spawning ships from the shot. You already know my other old idea, and I'm sure you know I am no modder, but if the shot from the DE managed to get the population of the planet to build scout ships [so that they already have exploration set] with a passive culture spread... Of course this is just if the current mod isn't enough of a Super. I'm just sad we can't scramble enemy fleets.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 18, 2012 5:04:12 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,
It's just the buff chain becomes significantly more complex. Take a look at my Grey Goo ability. That sort of a buff chain is what would have been necessary if Rebellion didn't add conditional buffs. It was still possible, but it's wildly inefficient because you have to have a dozen different buffs applying and removing each other to get it to work properly.

I consider that basically unworkable. Whats the point of making something if it lags everything? I try and avoid periodic actions for everything but AoE buff effects like targeting uplink, which is what they were designed for. If you're clever with the buff apply conditions you should be able to avoid doing that.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 18, 2012 5:37:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 27It's just the buff chain becomes significantly more complex. Take a look at my Grey Goo ability. That sort of a buff chain is what would have been necessary if Rebellion didn't add conditional buffs. It was still possible, but it's wildly inefficient because you have to have a dozen different buffs applying and removing each other to get it to work properly.

I consider that basically unworkable. Whats the point of making something if it lags everything? I try and avoid periodic actions for everything but AoE buff effects like targeting uplink, which is what they were designed for. If you're clever with the buff apply conditions you should be able to avoid doing that.

Well, Grey Goo was so laggy primarily because of the fact that it was a fork bomb DoT.  The logic gates I had to stick in there to buff and unbuff are what I was referring to as far as being inefficient goes.  My point was that there was a possible (though inefficient) buff chain previously available that would function as a logic gate.  I basically had to create that framework and then add the forking component to get it to be Grey Goo.

But to answer your quest what's the point?  It's cool. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 18, 2012 6:46:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Grey goo would work if you limited the duration and number of ships it could effect.

Practical? No.  Very cool? Oh yeah.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 18, 2012 6:50:05 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Yurka_Sanctuary,
Sinperium, I actually had an idea like that ,too, to convert the enemy's broadcast centers. But then I thought that, though the enem- wait... the topic is already done? The mod is already made? Nevermind then.

But to add some actual worth to posting, you mentioned spawning ships from the shot. You already know my other old idea, and I'm sure you know I am no modder, but if the shot from the DE managed to get the population of the planet to build scout ships [so that they already have exploration set] with a passive culture spread... Of course this is just if the current mod isn't enough of a Super. I'm just sad we can't scramble enemy fleets.

There is no way I have the time to scratch create an intricate new ability--I know a little about a lot and a lot about little.  That said, I am pretty sure you can trigger a lot of things easily with your shot in the gravity well.

Ships could be spawned or captured, destroyed, stunned--whatever.  Lot's of potential. How it would work and how practical depends on what sort of effect you want.

Try the mod Volt_Cruelerz made here if you want to see the capturable culture centers (that's the final version).

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 19, 2012 12:58:30 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Now this looks like a proper way to fix the Deliverance engine.

 

Very well done, Volt!  I hope the Devs will think about incorporating this into the final release...

 

Have a beer

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 19, 2012 1:38:08 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

lol, it was Sinperium's idea.  I just made it.  

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 19, 2012 2:20:35 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,
But to answer your quest what's the point? It's cool.

I no longer remember what exactly this ability does, though I seem to remember something about it consuming all in its path. But yes, I suppose it is cool.

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,
lol, it was Sinperium's idea. I just made it

In other words, the hard work.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 19, 2012 2:47:15 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,
I no longer remember what exactly this ability does, though I seem to remember something about it consuming all in its path. But yes, I suppose it is cool.

Grey Goo was an ability I designed that could only be applied to a unit either without shields or with it's shields down.  Once inside the shields, the DoT begins to fork and the DPS taken by the ship skyrockets.  Also, any nearby ships also get hit by it if their shields are down.  When the ship ultimately explodes (I made it so that only Repair Cloud could save the infected ships, though you'd have to be ready to spam it repeatedly), it infects a larger radius of ships regardless of whether or not their shields are online.  As a result, once a ship gets hit by it you send that ship on whatever course it's on and have everything else run for the hills.

So yes, Grey Goo does consume everything in it's path.

Quoting GoaFan77,
In other words, the hard work.

Lol, this was really quite easy, likely because I'd already been thinking of the possibility of sticking various passive abilities on the fifth slot of every ship and what that could allow.

The first thing that comes to mind is the ability to establish hard-set synergies between ships.  For instance, the Radiance, Progenitor, and Halcyon could collectively have AoE buffs that when return to themselves with the buffs from the others, super-buff that particular unit, creating the "Holy Trinity."  Likewise, you could make a "Dark Triad" (or whatever you want to call it) out of the Revelation, Rapture, and Discord.

Each object in the game would have an ability called AbilityIs____, so AbilityIsProgenitor, AbilityIsRadiance, AbilityIsHalcyon, etc.  AbilityIsProgenitor for instance would then apply things such as BuffIsProgenitor and BuffIsAdvent.

BuffIsProgenitor would apply buffs to all nearby owned capitals and would test them for BuffIsRadiance or BuffIsHalcyon.  If a ship receives the buffs from all three, it receives something like BuffHolyTrinityProgenitor that'd do all sorts of things to AM regen or what have you.

 

Sorry, off-topic.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 19, 2012 2:50:47 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Actually that last there is really interesting.

And Goa, without ideas, people that work hard would be unemployed.  I'm simulating the economy.  I should get a medal...or maybe be elected president.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 23, 2012 1:51:19 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Was playing a game with this as Advent Loyalists against multiple Advent enemies.  I was getting hit so frequently that I stopped building culture centers all together and just let Global Unity and starbases handle my culture.  To my surprise, this actually worked.  Global Unity is incredibly good at countering this.

Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot the other races can do.

Then again, that is effectively how the other two races are.  TEC get shield generators against Novaliths and Vasari get Phase Stabilizers against the Kostura, so I guess it works out.

Definitely makes it something to fear, particularly in large numbers.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 23, 2012 3:49:50 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yep--Advent is best prepared to handle it...though the Vasari loyalists can escape it with their tech.

A good balance could be doing as Goa suggested and just having it destroy culture centers.  Other alternatives could be a chance to capture only rather thana guarantee.

I'd make an identical version that destroys the centers and try them both out for a bit.

I played it on a large map with 9 AIs so it wasn't an instant win.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 1, 2012 11:46:14 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

What if the DE didn't fire... it just constantly beamed culture to the target?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 2, 2012 12:18:09 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

that would be cool..  Doubt it would happen now though..

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108433  walnut3   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000250   Page Render Time: