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Some Concerns with Vasari Unlimiteds

By on May 16, 2012 12:20:47 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Volt_Cruelerz

Join Date 06/2008
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As of this point, it has become apparent that the Vasari are horrendously OP and while I acknowledge this, I would like to direct attention to two primary things that I have concern with and they both involve capabilities that the Vasari have that allow them things in unlimited quantities.  Compared to other issues the Vasari have, these are relatively minor, but they are still issues IMO.

1. Unlimited Greater Nanite Swarms

Due to the fact that the once the Rankulas hits level six, it can spawn Greater Nanite Swarms which have no duration and can phase jump, you effectively have infinite frigates.  For best effect, station the Rankulas near a star or Advent AM regeneration.  Then, just spawn to your heart's content.  My issue here is that they are decently powerful frigates that come at no cost to the user aside from AM, but that regenerates.

Maybe it's just me, but it larger maps with multiple star systems, I feel like if there's a lot of turtling involved, it's possible that someone could suddenly jump in 2000 fleet supply plus a ton of additional GNS's.

If nanite swarms just lacked a phase drive, I think I'd be alright with them because you wouldn't be able to make infinitely many anymore because creating one uses all other nanite swarms in the gravity well, including other GNS's.

2. Unlimited Orky Tax and Trade Income

Due to the fact that Orkies can be phase jumped now, economically designed Orkies can now be massed on rear worlds.  Provided you have a sufficiently large trade chain, you can basically get unlimited credits by building Orkies and then jumping them to other worlds.  The reason for this is that while additional Orkies in a gravity well may be disabled in some regards, their trade income and tax income are not.  Thus, someone could easily spam Orkies into a rear world and get unlimited credit income because unlike all other players, they are no longer limited by the number of gravity wells on the map to get their income.  They can get infinite money.

I'm not really sure how to solve this, because in smaller quantities it makes sense, it's just that there is the potential for a Vasari player to simply spam economic Orkies.

 

Thoughts?

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May 16, 2012 12:38:04 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

For number 1, I think the nannite swarms are still bugged enough that we cant really say for sure. I have never seen a Rankulas have more than 5 active at one time, and they sometimes (for me anyway) randomly disappear. Also, sometimes the swarms phase jump, sometimes they don't. I agree that they shouldnt have a phase drive, doesnt make much sense to me that they would.

For number 2, I think a 2 or 3 per well limit on orkys for the Vas Rebels makes sense (any orky(s) beyond the first would still be disabled). This lets you still move them around without it being too complicated, gives you the passive trade and tax incomes, but limits the extent to which they can be spammed. My current preference of having the orky phase jump become a 2 level module would eliminate the colony pod upgrade (preferably) so that might be an alternative solution to the infinite econ orky spam.

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May 16, 2012 12:44:15 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

u shouldnt be able to have more than 1 orky in a well at once

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May 16, 2012 1:39:58 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting JJBuck2,
For number 1, I think the nannite swarms are still bugged enough that we cant really say for sure. I have never seen a Rankulas have more than 5 active at one time, and they sometimes (for me anyway) randomly disappear. Also, sometimes the swarms phase jump, sometimes they don't. I agree that they shouldnt have a phase drive, doesnt make much sense to me that they would.

For number 2, I think a 2 or 3 per well limit on orkys for the Vas Rebels makes sense (any orky(s) beyond the first would still be disabled). This lets you still move them around without it being too complicated, gives you the passive trade and tax incomes, but limits the extent to which they can be spammed. My current preference of having the orky phase jump become a 2 level module would eliminate the colony pod upgrade (preferably) so that might be an alternative solution to the infinite econ orky spam.

Nanite Swarms aren't bugged (so far as I've seen).  They can phase jump consistently (for me anyways) and the reason you can't have more than that (the actually maximum is six, two of each type) is because they have a duration.  After the duration expires, they are destroyed, just as deployed missile batteries or siege platforms have a lifetime.

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May 16, 2012 1:40:39 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting martox1,
u shouldnt be able to have more than 1 orky in a well at once

Isn't that how it currently is?  How can you get more than one at a grav well?  Its not like its TEC loyalists?  The first issue is definitely a problem and can be fixed, but why would the second issue exist, it should only be one starbase at a grav well and 4 at the sun.

Also, this might of been a simple solution to the other issue that the game was crashing when 2 starbases phase jumped to a single grav well.  I believe they allowed this to allow the Vasari to be released.  I have a feeling it will be fixed.

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May 16, 2012 2:33:25 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You can jump multiple ones in and move them around, but only the original one will remain active.  The others will have their SC, weapons, and abilities disabled.

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May 16, 2012 2:51:01 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I see your point, that is a big issue.  Also, thx for the information

One more question, when you destroy the active starbase does one of the other starbases that just happen to be there become active?

Because a good way to 'fix' the problem would be to completely disable (including income/trade, except movement) of secondary star bases, and the only way to make them active is to send them to a grav well where they are by themselves, which activates them and you would bring them back when the active one on the first grav well dies (then you couldn't 'store' star bases either).  It would still be an advantage because the V.Rebels would not have to rebuild a starbase, but then it prevents people from storing their starbases waiting for the first one to die.  However, they will still be able to phase jump in a new one.  Its kind of a duct tape fix.

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May 16, 2012 3:16:59 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

If you kill the active one, the next one to have jumped into the gravity well comes online.

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May 16, 2012 4:28:36 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Regarding Orkies, i think, you should be not able to have more than 2 in gravity well at once, and such situation can occur only if you start building one, while another is on its way already through phase space. Obviously, when it arrives, it will go offline, but from this point on, you cant:

neither start building new Orky, cause there are already 2 in the gravwell, one inactive

neither can send another, for the same reasons 

 

it should IMHO work like this, no unlimited Orkies 

 

EDIT: oh, there is indeed the possibility of sending more Orkies at once to an empty gravwell, that is indeed another situation, i failed to take account for...and its probably unsolvable, unless starbase during phase jump counts as starbase inside target gravwell, which is probably impossible to do, therefore current solution... 

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May 16, 2012 5:07:04 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I don't want to have to disable trading, but it may be the only way.

Of course, I still support having movement be a replacement module for colony pods.

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