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Pathetic, FUBAR, Pitiful, Embarassing Multiplayer System. Good Job Stardock/Ironclad!

By on May 28, 2012 6:30:46 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Nightraid3r

Join Date 04/2008
+20

You guys continue to outdo yourselves with each attempt, or rather lack there of, at making your signature game, Sins of a Solar Empire, have a respectable multiplayer system.  Not only have you failed to provide anything but a bare-bones system known notoriously as ICO, what actually is there is a complete piece of trash.  On the last 15 multiplayer games I have played in the latest Rebellion beta patch, 14 ended in minidumps, desyncs, or both.  You can do the math.

You continue to say that you "fix every minidump that is sent in" or that "desyncs are hard to track down", which are just pathetic excuses for what you know is a complete lack of attention to the multpilayer aspect of your game.  Even if you admit that you don't actually fix the problems, you will still fall back on, "well nobody plays multiplayer", and the question I have for you is, "can you blame them?".  It is simply unplayable, and disgusting.

 Sins of a Solar Empire could be a true "Mona Lisa" of a game, but you guys are too busy taking turns deficating all over the metaphorical painting to the point that a boxed copy of the game would be better used as a paper weight, than taking up  space on a harddrive.

 /rant

[DT]Radioactive

P.S. I've spent more than 4 years playing the Sins series, and bought each one at full price.  I only wish you would spend half the time I spend in game fixing  your bug-filled piece of junk, or give me my money back. 

 

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May 28, 2012 9:28:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

 The thing is, appeasing the 15 % will only help to improve the game for the 85%.

 

If you look at steam's # of players that played steam and the ICO's online count at peak hours, it would suggust that more than 15% of the playerbase play multiplayer... and that doesnt include lan.

Id be willing to wager that 50% ish or of the people that start up rebellion these days are playing ICO or private games.

Id expect that number to drop when sins is officially released, as scores of new people start learning the game... but right now the number of players playing online and number of players playing... not a small slice.

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May 28, 2012 9:40:37 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Polistes,
Sins caters to the more intelligent/patient gamer, and NOT to the ADHD generation that can't focus on one thing for more than a few minutes, one does not need to use their brain to play cod or SC II which is mainly just memorizing a quick build order to rush your opponent in the first five minutes of game play. And likely plays into why these games are so successful despite a horribly bad storyline, and "shallow game play" And I have nerver seen any strategy played out in CoD. Battlefield II and III are different stories.

The fact is multiplayer works, so if you want to play then go head. And honestly look at what MP has done to the titans, they used to be an end all ship worthy of the cost of rescources for them, now they can barely stand alone at lower levels. Things are getting nerfed that really don't need to be, some one is spamming vettes, then counter with flack. Or a more heavily armored ship type.

And you talk about arrogance? The MP community here likes to portray itself as the core sins community, the majority and as one post in another thread mentioned, thinks that they are the salvation of the game series, and that the game should revolved around MP, and I am getting sick of that mindset and I generally try to ignore it most cases but this thread is just too much.

Sins will never have a huge multiplayer base and thats due to the genre of game that it is and what its made for.

 

You're joking right? You just trolling or are you really this naive? I play mostly SP and even I can tell that MP gives the most feed back of the game and focus more on balance issues. They work hard and are the back bone of balance and fun. Also you  obviously don't play MP where one single defeat can mark the end of your empire in single player its just a little slap on the wrist. That is real strategy and the problem with SP is the AI isn't aggressive enough. Fact is MP is the core of balance, and this balance makes SP more fun. Now good day sir.

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May 28, 2012 9:40:56 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,
@ polistes


Sins will never have a huge multiplayer base and thats due to the genre of game that it is and what its made for.


Thats totally wrong.  the only reason sins multi fails is because of how long minidumps and desyncs have made many games unplayable.  Also, initially the game didn't have a quickstart option which turned many players off because the first 10 minutes of gameplay was almost exactly the same every game.  Years of online community growth have been severely hampered because there wasn't any importance placed upon multiplayer, when there should have been.

Anyways, it is "single player exclusive sins experiencers" like you polistes that seek to drive a wedge between the "two communities", when there is in fact one community.  It is your own inexperience with playing the higher level of the game that limits your understanding of strategy and what is and is not overpowered.  Take that recent poll that the 85% singleplayer base voted that the kol is an effective battleship in multiplayer...  That is as gross of a misrepresentation of the reality of the game's strategy as it would be to say the sky is dark green with pink mist.  There is no doubt in my mind that the mastery difference between the different groups is so different as to ensure that the developers make a choice.

If the developers go with the majority who don't know enough about the finer points of the game strategy and ruin the multiplayer aspect of the game, then they will kill what we find truly beautiful about the game.  Just because you don't see the games beauty the same way doesn't mean that we both can't be appeased.  The thing is, appeasing the 15 % takes more effort yet will only help to improve the game for the 85%. 

There is NO us or them, we are in it together m8.  Our multiplayer/singleplayer understanding and position is not arrogance if it has been earned, and there are many voices aside from mine who have earned their position and respect via their knowledge and mastery of the different strategies available in the game.  Personally I don't look down on single players for their choices to stay in single player, but they don't deserve a voice in discussions of high strategy if they prove they don't know what they are talking about (like mayallcommunion). 

It only seems like arrogance because you are ignorant.  Take some responsibility choose either to accept your position or perhaps increase your sins experience and play some multiplayer, please.

Once the minidumps get fixed i'd be glad to face you in a few games and teach you a few things.

 

The finer strategies in MP? LOL you mean spamming LRMs and corvettes?

Driving a wedge in the community? The OP does an excellent job at that, same with the comp stomps are for losers thread. I don't have to do anything the overly competitive MP'ers do that just fine thank you. I will never play multiplayer here unless its with friends, the overall community IS rude, arrogant and lacks tact. There are a few VERY few MP players out there that are generally fun to play with, because they are out for a good time and don't beat their chests staing how great MP is or try to force people from a game because to them its already over despite the fact the other side can still put up a fight or even turn the tables.

Also there is the issue of the treatment of people new to the game, noobs seem to get thrashed rather heavily and bashed, it takes one bad experince to drive someone who would probably liked MP away.

 Like it or not there is an us vs them simply due to the fact that if one side gets more rescources then the other side will suffer, single player vs multiplayer, which one to fund more? This is more pronounced in companies that don't have a huge budget to work with. And also due to the attitude of some of the more prominent posters here.

As for units, every unit is effective in its own way, and if its used properly. You know this. The KOL can be nasty in the right situation, the trick in these game is to determine what the proper situation is or is not.

Another issue you brought up is the quick start feature... seriously I NEVER play with that, why do things always have to go at such a fast pace these days? I hate it what happened to the games that take hours or days. I have never been in a muliplayer game that lasted over 50 minutes... seriously? Come on lets have some fun.

And that is my last point, too few people here seem to simply want to have fun, it seems its all about winning the most games in the shortest amount of time. And if its going to be that way I don't want to see my single player experinced ruined for people like this. This is meant to be an epic game that take hours or days to finish, where long term thinking and planning is supposed to matter over the short term actions taken.

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May 28, 2012 9:47:16 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting cirving4444,



Quoting Polistes,
reply 21
Sins caters to the more intelligent/patient gamer, and NOT to the ADHD generation that can't focus on one thing for more than a few minutes, one does not need to use their brain to play cod or SC II which is mainly just memorizing a quick build order to rush your opponent in the first five minutes of game play. And likely plays into why these games are so successful despite a horribly bad storyline, and "shallow game play" And I have nerver seen any strategy played out in CoD. Battlefield II and III are different stories.

The fact is multiplayer works, so if you want to play then go head. And honestly look at what MP has done to the titans, they used to be an end all ship worthy of the cost of rescources for them, now they can barely stand alone at lower levels. Things are getting nerfed that really don't need to be, some one is spamming vettes, then counter with flack. Or a more heavily armored ship type.

And you talk about arrogance? The MP community here likes to portray itself as the core sins community, the majority and as one post in another thread mentioned, thinks that they are the salvation of the game series, and that the game should revolved around MP, and I am getting sick of that mindset and I generally try to ignore it most cases but this thread is just too much.

Sins will never have a huge multiplayer base and thats due to the genre of game that it is and what its made for.


 

You're joking right? You just trolling or are you really this naive? I play mostly SP and even I can tell that MP gives the most feed back of the game and focus more on balance issues. They work hard and are the back bone of balance and fun. Also you  obviously don't play MP where one single defeat can mark the end of your empire in single player its just a little slap on the wrist. That is real strategy and the problem with SP is the AI isn't aggressive enough. Fact is MP is the core of balance, and this balance makes SP more fun. Now good day sir.

The multiplayer is much more volcal than the single player community I will give you that. And simply the things that need to be said have already been said, do I need to contribute anything to the discussions at all? What could I add or another person who plays SP only could say that has not already been said. I think I will just sit back and enjoy my game. As for the rest you prove my points quite nicely thank you.

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May 28, 2012 9:49:53 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Polistes,
This is meant to be an epic game that take hours or days to finish, where long term thinking and planning is supposed to matter over the short term actions taken.

 

LAWL!!!! There is no long term thinking in SP. Its main strategy is MAKE BIG FLEET AND ROFL AS YOU STEAM ROLL AI.

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May 28, 2012 9:54:09 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Polistes,
The fact is multiplayer works, so if you want to play then go head.

Multiplayer doesn't work, that is the point of this thread...the amount of minidumps and desyncs make it unplayable and not worth the time investment...

Quoting Polistes,
honestly look at what MP has done to the titans, they used to be an end all ship worthy of the cost of rescources for them, now they can barely stand alone at lower levels.

Titans were OP, and your inability to keep them alive is due to your gameplay, not the gameplay of Sins...as for your opinion in regards to Corvettes, I'm going to guess you've never been rushed by a pro player before they were nerfed, because that would require multiplayer...

Quoting Polistes,
The MP community here likes to portray itself as the core sins community, the majority and as one post in another thread mentioned, thinks that they are the salvation of the game series, and that the game should revolved around MP,

The difference between you and the MP community is that they have credibility when they say "Titans are OP"...you on the other hand do not when you say "Titans are too weak"...doesn't inherently make them right but you act like this game is more or less fine and it just isn't...your tolerance for the current state of balance points to a serious lack of skill or experience...that in and of itself is not a problem, but when you criticize skilled players for giving feedback and suggesting improvements, that is a problem...

Criticize the MP community for being asshats, or mean, or ugly, or uncouth...but those people understand the game and you have not a leg to stand on when you say they will ruin the quality of SoaSE...if the MP community (however small) isn't taken seriously, you will never see a large MP community...

Of course obviously you don't care about that since, you know, it won't every affect you...you won't be playing MP so clearly SD shouldn't waste any time with such endeavors...

Quoting Polistes,
Sins will never have a huge multiplayer base and thats due to the genre of game that it is and what its made for.

No...Sins is exactly the genre meant for MP...you honestly think Sins SP is stronger?  Sins has three factions, a shallow tech tree, a vague and limited lore/backstory, a limited amount of "stuff to explore" like planet types, planet bonuses, artifacts, etc...compare that to Gal Civ II which has 12 factions, a campaign, an extremely well developed backstory, meaningful tech trees, ship customization, unique random events and planetary counters, faction customizabion, the list goes on...or how about Civ V, which has policies, dozens of leaders to play as, more developed victory conditions, and a whole host of features adding depth ...and that's just the base game, an expansion will be adding religions and espionage...

There is a whole slate of games coming out soon (Endless Space and Legends of Pegasus will likely lead the pack) that have a lot more SP elements to offer...

What does sins have going for it?  Really cool graphics, a nice UI, a non-clickfest RTS style, small amount of elements that are easy to learn but hard to master...the best elements of Sins points to an MP, not SP game...

Quoting Polistes,
and I am getting sick of that mindset and I generally try to ignore it most cases but this thread is just too much.

This statement, and really the base premise of your entire argument is fundamentally flawed...you act like improving the game for MP will somehow detract from SP, and that just isn't the case...balance changes that are targetted for competitive MP games can only help SP, not hurt it...sure, some balance changes may only be noticeable to skilled players, but that doesn't suddenly mean they should be neglected...your "evidence" that MP balance changes have hurt the SP experience simply points your lack of skill/experience...

It is one thing to accept and acknowledge that SD is not likely to cater to the MP base (a sad truth that most have begrudgingly accepted)...but you are specifically arguing that SD shouldn't cater to the MP base because, well, you aren't part of that group...your fallacious argument degrades the MP community, insults their intelligence, and conjoins poor assumptions with blanket stereotypes...

You argue that MP guys are just ADHD brats who don't appreciate strategy...I posit that you are an incompetent player who wishes you could steamroll the AI with just a single OP titan...you claim MP guys are arrogant for highlighting their importance to bringing better game balance...I'm calling you out on your big head for thinking that MP guys aren't intelligent or strategic and that since you aren't part of the MP community, its concerns shouldn't be addressed...

Quoting Caesar337,
Forgive me if i'm wrong but aren't beta's supposed to be buggy and unbalanced?

This has been brought up a million times, and it carries little meaning...the MP crowd has been here since the beginning, and the latest version of non-Rebellion (Diplomacy v1.34) still fails at being balanced...it is not a black and white situation where Beta = unbalanced and v1.0 = balanced...given SD's track record, Rebellion will likely never be balanced...

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May 28, 2012 10:13:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,



Quoting Polistes,
reply 21
The fact is multiplayer works, so if you want to play then go head.


Multiplayer doesn't work, that is the point of this thread...the amount of minidumps and desyncs make it unplayable and not worth the time investment...




Quoting Polistes,
reply 21
honestly look at what MP has done to the titans, they used to be an end all ship worthy of the cost of rescources for them, now they can barely stand alone at lower levels.


Titans were OP, and your inability to keep them alive is due to your gameplay, not the gameplay of Sins...as for your opinion in regards to Corvettes, I'm going to guess you've never been rushed by a pro player before they were nerfed, because that would require multiplayer...




Quoting Polistes,
reply 21
The MP community here likes to portray itself as the core sins community, the majority and as one post in another thread mentioned, thinks that they are the salvation of the game series, and that the game should revolved around MP,


The difference between you and the MP community is that they have credibility when they say "Titans are OP"...you on the other hand do not when you say "Titans are too weak"...doesn't inherently make them right but you act like this game is more or less fine and it just isn't...your tolerance for the current state of balance points to a serious lack of skill or experience...that in and of itself is not a problem, but when you criticize skilled players for giving feedback and suggesting improvements, that is a problem...

Criticize the MP community for being asshats, or mean, or ugly, or uncouth...but those people understand the game and you have not a leg to stand on when you say they will ruin the quality of SoaSE...if the MP community (however small) isn't taken seriously, you will never see a large MP community...

Of course obviously you don't care about that since, you know, it won't every affect you...you won't be playing MP so clearly SD shouldn't waste any time with such endeavors...




Quoting Polistes,
reply 21
Sins will never have a huge multiplayer base and thats due to the genre of game that it is and what its made for.


No...Sins is exactly the genre meant for MP...you honestly think Sins SP is stronger?  Sins has three factions, a shallow tech tree, a vague and limited lore/backstory, a limited amount of "stuff to explore" like planet types, planet bonuses, artifacts, etc...compare that to Gal Civ II which has 12 factions, a campaign, an extremely well developed backstory, meaningful tech trees, ship customization, unique random events and planetary counters, faction customizabion, the list goes on...or how about Civ V, which has policies, dozens of leaders to play as, more developed victory conditions, and a whole host of features adding depth ...and that's just the base game, an expansion will be adding religions and espionage...

There is a whole slate of games coming out soon (Endless Space and Legends of Pegasus will likely lead the pack) that have a lot more SP elements to offer...

What does sins have going for it?  Really cool graphics, a nice UI, a non-clickfest RTS style, small amount of elements that are easy to learn but hard to master...the best elements of Sins points to an MP, not SP game...




Quoting Polistes,
reply 21
and I am getting sick of that mindset and I generally try to ignore it most cases but this thread is just too much.


This statement, and really the base premise of your entire argument is fundamentally flawed...you act like improving the game for MP will somehow detract from SP, and that just isn't the case...balance changes that are targetted for competitive MP games can only help SP, not hurt it...sure, some balance changes may only be noticeable to skilled players, but that doesn't suddenly mean they should be neglected...your "evidence" that MP balance changes have hurt the SP experience simply points your lack of skill/experience...

It is one thing to accept and acknowledge that SD is not likely to cater to the MP base (a sad truth that most have begrudgingly accepted)...but you are specifically arguing that SD shouldn't cater to the MP base because, well, you aren't part of that group...your fallacious argument degrades the MP community, insults their intelligence, and conjoins poor assumptions with blanket stereotypes...

You argue that MP guys are just ADHD brats who don't appreciate strategy...I posit that you are an incompetent player who wishes you could steamroll the AI with just a single OP titan...you claim MP guys are arrogant for highlighting their importance to bringing better game balance...I'm calling you out on your big head for thinking that MP guys aren't intelligent or strategic and that since you aren't part of the MP community, its concerns shouldn't be addressed...




Quoting Caesar337,
reply 22
Forgive me if i'm wrong but aren't beta's supposed to be buggy and unbalanced?










Going from last to first.

Whats the strategy is LRF and vette spam? Why are games like Cod and SCII so popular? Why are games like Sins not so popular? It should be obvious because a majority of people don't like to focus one a single task for long periods of time. Why is everyone wanting this game to go faster? There was a term for it I saw here "twitch gaming" I think it was.

I have never seen in the MP games I have played a long term strategy by anyone, it was rush your opponent the fastest with one or two types of unit. Where is the strategy in that? Its no different that C&C3 and 4 or SCII And over in a similar amount of time.

On the opposite side of that why is Sins popular with its player base? Because its different, or supposed to be different from the clickfest gaming that is so prevalent in todays market. It caters to the more indepth player who in theory would enjoy a more drawn out and indepth game. And I am assuming that there are some MP players that feel that way as well.

As for the titans Yes you should be able to steamroll an Ai with a ship that costs 9500 credits 1200 metal and 750 crystal not to mention the investment for the foundry and the time it takes you to build it. (Its certainly not something I would invest in for multiplayer)

As for my tolerance to the current state of the game, I am playing it to have fun and take the game for what it is. And whats wrong with that?

And finally you continue to harp on my "inexperienced" while not knowing how long I have been playing this game at all. If you really care about such things I have been playing since sins vanilla and bought each expansion as they came out. I registered on the forums in 2008 but was playing several months before that and have sunk hundreds of hours into each of them, for the beta I have 226 hours of game play so I am not "inexperienced" by any means. However I do not play MP as you stated and don't care about it and the way the community portrays itself does not help their cause at all either. Seriously saying someone who plays MP is more valuable feedback wise than some one who has played SP for the same amount of time, don't you think that is arrogant in and of itself?

As for my multiplayer experince its being generous if I say that I have played six hours in legit matches. I have played more with friends in compstomps, but hey those don't count right?

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May 28, 2012 10:22:59 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The finer strategies in MP? LOL you mean spamming LRMs and corvettes?

Yes in fact, what you spam and how long you spam it where you need it while collecting intelligence data on your opponents all the while trying to guess what they will spam where and how they will assault is actually a very very detailed strategic experience.  Its not that the components of the strategy are complex (the are not), its that the way the game plays WHAT you spam WHEN you spam it matters so much more then in many RTS's i've played.  The "counter chains" that work so well combined with all the other awesome aspects of the game make it the best RTS experience because the longer the game goes on the more strategic options a player has (until fleet cap...the game changes a bit after this point..luckily most multiplayer games don't reach fleet cap).  Once you reach a certain level of development and research in a game you can really have an epic space opera PER multiplayer experience.  Then the next one you play after the initial buildups can be entirely different, as different areas gain strategic importance (as long as you play random maps). 

The beauty is that the game constantly evolves and this is what makes each game a relatively new experience worth playing again.  The replayability of this game blows me away, and the way it is designed it can actually receive minimal improvements to add a LOT to change how the game is played.  It is inherently designed as a win win for both developers and players, and it could be so much more if the developers put a bit more energy into developing this game(instead of spreading themselves thin on multiple IP's).  Perhaps they got bored of sins, I can't fault them, it happens. 

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May 28, 2012 10:27:27 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,

The finer strategies in MP? LOL you mean spamming LRMs and corvettes?


Yes in fact, what you spam and how long you spam it where you need it while collecting intelligence data on your opponents all the while trying to guess what they will spam where and how they will assault is actually a very very detailed strategic experience.  Its not that the components of the strategy are complex (the are not), its that the way the game plays WHAT you spam WHEN you spam it matters so much more then in many RTS's i've played.  The "counter chains" that work so well combined with all the other awesome aspects of the game make it the best RTS experience because the longer the game goes on the more strategic options a player has (until fleet cap...the game changes a bit after this point..luckily most multiplayer games don't reach fleet cap).  Once you reach a certain level of development and research in a game you can really have an epic space opera PER multiplayer experience.  Then the next one you play after the initial buildups can be entirely different, as different areas gain strategic importance (as long as you play random maps). 

The beauty is that the game constantly evolves and this is what makes each game a relatively new experience worth playing again.  The replayability of this game blows me away, and the way it is designed it can actually receive minimal improvements to add a LOT to change how the game is played.  It is inherently designed as a win win for both developers and players, and it could be so much more if the developers put a bit more energy into developing this game(instead of spreading themselves thin on multiple IP's).  Perhaps they got bored of sins, I can't fault them, it happens. 

Now that is a nicely thought out post. Qood work on explaining the spamming thing too.

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May 28, 2012 11:03:14 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Polistes,
However I do not play MP as you stated and don't care about it and the way the community portrays itself does not help their cause at all either. Seriously saying someone who plays MP is more valuable feedback wise than some one who has played SP for the same amount of time, don't you think that is arrogant in and of itself?

Babe Ruth played baseball for 22 seasons...my neighbor played baseball in a men's club for a comparable amount of time, yet no one is going to bat an eyelash if someone were to claim Babe Ruth knows more about baseball than my neighbor...

Skill matters...and if Babe Ruth said "You know Joe Smoe, I might know a bit more about baseball than you" I seriously doubt you'd call him arrogant...

You continue to banter with the same argument that Sins shouldn't be a clickfest, yet no one is asking for it to be...you continue to argue that Sins shouldn't be like CoD, but no one is asking for that...you complain about "spamming two units", but interestingly enough your beloved MP community has pushed hard to prevent spamming of the same ol' units (why do you think Corvettes got nerfed????)...

My issue is not your level of experience, or that you just want to have fun...my issue is that you insult the MP community for giving feedback and trying to improve the game...your logic is flawed and your "evidence" that they hurt the game seriously undermines your credibility...

You could have just stuck with "Their all asses, who'd want to play MP with them"...hell, you could have even just gone with "They're all arrogant sounding, that's why no one listens to their suggestions"...but you specifically choose to argue that their feedback should be ignored on the basis that they play MP and MP doesn't matter...I'm not even part of the MP crowd and I take offense that you would disdain a very important part of the Sins community, asking it to be marginalized because, well, you don't like them and you aren't part of their group...quite simply, your reasoning is just plain wrongheaded...

 

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May 28, 2012 11:06:09 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@ polistes

I play SOASE online, and it's far less  "twitchy" then other online RTS games. That's actually what drew me to playing online. There really isn't a "dumbing" down at all; I actually think it's more thoughtful than playing against the A.I! The pace of a multiplayer round is faster, I will say, but it's still far slower than say, Age of Empires or Starcraft. The average match in SOASE can last 1-2 hours, compared to say 5-30 minutes of other games. That's the appeal that has kept me playing SOASE all these years; it takes a lot more thinking instead of just a 'battle of clicks'.

Either way, it's pretty obvious that the players who are on ICO generally know more about the mechanics of the game than the exclusively single-player guys. This is because the mechanics ultimately mean more if it comes between victory and defeat. It's a lot harder to 'game' another person than the A.I in SOASE, so you get a far bigger view of the problems of the game. The developers should ultimately listen to who has the most experience with mechanics problems first-hand, the ICO players.

In this way, better balance in the game can be had, which benefits everybody. I do think you should try a couple good games on ICO; it's a heck of a lot different than what you'd think.

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May 28, 2012 11:18:39 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,

Quoting Polistes, reply 21The fact is multiplayer works, so if you want to play then go head.

Multiplayer doesn't work, that is the point of this thread...the amount of minidumps and desyncs make it unplayable and not worth the time investment...


Quoting Polistes, reply 21honestly look at what MP has done to the titans, they used to be an end all ship worthy of the cost of rescources for them, now they can barely stand alone at lower levels.

Titans were OP, and your inability to keep them alive is due to your gameplay, not the gameplay of Sins...as for your opinion in regards to Corvettes, I'm going to guess you've never been rushed by a pro player before they were nerfed, because that would require multiplayer...


Quoting Polistes, reply 21The MP community here likes to portray itself as the core sins community, the majority and as one post in another thread mentioned, thinks that they are the salvation of the game series, and that the game should revolved around MP,

The difference between you and the MP community is that they have credibility when they say "Titans are OP"...you on the other hand do not when you say "Titans are too weak"...doesn't inherently make them right but you act like this game is more or less fine and it just isn't...your tolerance for the current state of balance points to a serious lack of skill or experience...that in and of itself is not a problem, but when you criticize skilled players for giving feedback and suggesting improvements, that is a problem...

Criticize the MP community for being asshats, or mean, or ugly, or uncouth...but those people understand the game and you have not a leg to stand on when you say they will ruin the quality of SoaSE...if the MP community (however small) isn't taken seriously, you will never see a large MP community...

Of course obviously you don't care about that since, you know, it won't every affect you...you won't be playing MP so clearly SD shouldn't waste any time with such endeavors...


Quoting Polistes, reply 21Sins will never have a huge multiplayer base and thats due to the genre of game that it is and what its made for.

No...Sins is exactly the genre meant for MP...you honestly think Sins SP is stronger?  Sins has three factions, a shallow tech tree, a vague and limited lore/backstory, a limited amount of "stuff to explore" like planet types, planet bonuses, artifacts, etc...compare that to Gal Civ II which has 12 factions, a campaign, an extremely well developed backstory, meaningful tech trees, ship customization, unique random events and planetary counters, faction customizabion, the list goes on...or how about Civ V, which has policies, dozens of leaders to play as, more developed victory conditions, and a whole host of features adding depth ...and that's just the base game, an expansion will be adding religions and espionage...

There is a whole slate of games coming out soon (Endless Space and Legends of Pegasus will likely lead the pack) that have a lot more SP elements to offer...

What does sins have going for it?  Really cool graphics, a nice UI, a non-clickfest RTS style, small amount of elements that are easy to learn but hard to master...the best elements of Sins points to an MP, not SP game...


Quoting Polistes, reply 21and I am getting sick of that mindset and I generally try to ignore it most cases but this thread is just too much.

This statement, and really the base premise of your entire argument is fundamentally flawed...you act like improving the game for MP will somehow detract from SP, and that just isn't the case...balance changes that are targetted for competitive MP games can only help SP, not hurt it...sure, some balance changes may only be noticeable to skilled players, but that doesn't suddenly mean they should be neglected...your "evidence" that MP balance changes have hurt the SP experience simply points your lack of skill/experience...

It is one thing to accept and acknowledge that SD is not likely to cater to the MP base (a sad truth that most have begrudgingly accepted)...but you are specifically arguing that SD shouldn't cater to the MP base because, well, you aren't part of that group...your fallacious argument degrades the MP community, insults their intelligence, and conjoins poor assumptions with blanket stereotypes...

You argue that MP guys are just ADHD brats who don't appreciate strategy...I posit that you are an incompetent player who wishes you could steamroll the AI with just a single OP titan...you claim MP guys are arrogant for highlighting their importance to bringing better game balance...I'm calling you out on your big head for thinking that MP guys aren't intelligent or strategic and that since you aren't part of the MP community, its concerns shouldn't be addressed...


Quoting Caesar337, reply 22Forgive me if i'm wrong but aren't beta's supposed to be buggy and unbalanced?

This has been brought up a million times, and it carries little meaning...the MP crowd has been here since the beginning, and the latest version of non-Rebellion (Diplomacy v1.34) still fails at being balanced...it is not a black and white situation where Beta = unbalanced and v1.0 = balanced...given SD's track record, Rebellion will likely never be balanced...









 

I have to agree with everything there.

But yes to people smack talking multiplayer, you couldn't be more wrong. For instance, a friend of mine hates multiplayer with a passion, I mean seriously, if multiplayer was a person, he acts like that person fucked his wife and shot his dog. And this person cannot comprehend multiplayer, I have such fun and experiences with multiplayer on every game compared to single player. Now this person hasn't had any bad experiences with multiplayer, maybe one or two when he has gone online out of curiosity, but as someone said earlier in the thread, he just couldn't take being out done by a better player.

He plays single player and preaches how good he is at a game because he can steamroll AI, in demons souls he got mad when people beat his ass online, he couldn't understand why him, in the heaviest armor possible, with a massive sword and just stats stacked into endurance and strength (he was too heavy to even jog, had to walk everywhere) would get his ass handed to him by someone in light leather armor that has a nice poky weapons to penetrate his armor. Demons souls by the way has the most amazing balance out of any game I have ever seen of any genre, if you were good at your class and built it to your play style, you could win in a fight if there wasn't a person better then you.

Demons souls, for those who don't know, is a large, lore filled game with film quality music and great graphics that is incredibly hard, oldstyle hard, and boss fights are as good as they get. But it adds in multiplayer where if you become alive from a phantom, you can be invaded by people who are phantoms but you can also summon phantoms to help you progress in the game. Is an amazing game with perfect balance and SP and MP work hand in hand.

But in all range of games he plays he thinks he is amazing at them because he can steam roll AI, and when he gets his ass handed to him online he finds a fault with the players online and the game balance itself. Because he has never actually gone online and just played with other people his experience and skill is capped. He just sits there, alone, playing an exact repeat of what he did every last time.

AI isn't smart, as much as everyone thinks, AI in every game is about as smart as a 6 year old. And then on top of that it has no variation at all. The AI will repeat what it did. Games like sins for instance, will try to make it so the AI interacts and talks to you. Now games like SCII online, yes that is a very cookie cut game, but it would be like a fast passed chess game, there are only a limited possible number of moves you can do, lots will be the best openers and strategy, but when players fight back you have to adapt, thats what adds the variation and excitement of that gametype, if you don't like that genre, don't talk shit about it.

Now im not against single player myself but about 10 or so years ago when I first discovered multiplayer on my RTS games and everything else I was hooked, I used to sit there for hours and hours building everything to 100%, getting EVERY little last detail perfect, turtling while I did, and eventually would just steamroll the AI. The AI, in every game, never changed. It doesn't have imagination, it uses cookie cut builds every, single, time. You attack it with hordes of vettes? and you wipe out its fleet? well its not going to go build a counter to that, its going to trickle out forces identical to all those before. But when I got to multiplayer I got my ass handed to me and my steamrolling ideas and turtling shit got dominated, but I didn't bitch about how the game was shit and had been ruined and how its a horrible online community, no, I kept playing, adapting to every loss until I had effectively been "sculpted" into a good competitive player.

When you actually play and stick to multiplayer you see all of the imbalances within a game and you find that all of your old strategies would only beat a 6 year old that only knew what buttons to click. With multiplayer I got my ass handed to me in good ways, I learned why I fucked up and saw he bigger picture.

Now if you want to sit there like a hermit playing nothing but single player then do that, but don't come and start bitching when people who enjoy playing against other people and playing competitive for their own reasons, actually test and balance the game so that its better. No ship should be able to fly alone and live, f you had low level titans steamrolling shit then thats unbalanced, its supposed to be the jewel of the fleet which gives you that edge, not be the only thing you need.

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May 29, 2012 12:09:05 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ryat,
Oh another rant.

*grabs popcorn*

 

I'll bring the cookies!

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May 29, 2012 12:14:52 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

If you're interested in some nice chocolate pudding, I saved some just for you...

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May 29, 2012 12:15:18 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Some of you here know that nightraider is trolling and saying unnecessary things but at the same time want to play the neutral role where hes both right an wrong for the sake of karma i guess. You remind me of some the politicians in this world.

I understand that its difficult for you to endure such pain when playing but be aware that there is a mini-dump folder and saved game folder to help the devs find the problem. Also update any graphics drivers. This game cost you but its not released yet and the nature of the problems we are facing now are not going to be solved if we give up on sending feedback. Software developtment can be frustrating and human error is prawn to happen in coding.  

Nightraid3r its with my deepest condolences that you suffered that many minidumps and i know you enjoy playing this game but the best thing we can all do is zip the mini-dump files, saved files ,attach them and send them to  rebellionbeta@stardock.com with a description of what you were doing. 

The game is being produced by a skeleton crew so you are very important in  the development stage. 

 

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May 29, 2012 12:33:26 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Nightraider likes to troll but I think he's being quasi-serious here...the OP may lack tact, but he's essentially right...I know it's a beta but you can't even test a game properly when it crashes all the time or minor balance issues are so overshadowed by things like the OP Vasari...

The lack of a recent update also I think has everyone's panties in a knot...

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May 29, 2012 1:41:54 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It will pass. The only thing you can do is picture your self in a situation where if you open the game then your essentially at Starclads studios about to start a day of debuggin specifically looking for mini-dumps and sending the files. The problem your all saying is the beta is now unplayable but its best to send your mini-dump results for the greater good.

Further more-as you can see in this Q&A at gamespy with Chris Bray:

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/sins-of-a-solar-empire-rebellion/1224813p1.html

Bray

: The Vasari Rebel and Loyalist factions were just introduced in Beta 3, so we've definitely uncovered some balance issues with a few of their abilities. One of the new capabilities of the Vasari Rebels allows them to phase jump their starbases between planets. This gives their starbases excellent strategic flexibility, but is admittedly a bit over-powered in competitive multiplayer. It's something we're definitely addressing.

" as you can see they are aware of the balance problems"

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May 29, 2012 2:30:04 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It's another , "I'm taking my ball and going home" thread.  I remember these after Entrenchment came out and then Diplomacy. "If they don't make me happy now I quit and no one else should play either" posts.  

Heck, just leave.

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May 29, 2012 2:56:47 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@ sinperium

Na its not like that at all, its a public display of the morale of the player base.  There is a very real anger stirring on the beta, people are just getting fed up.  Its a regular practice to shoot a warning shot across a ships bow before you sink it during peacetime, this is that shot.  We don't want to sink the ship, we want her to change her course. 

Your casual aloof apathy says more about you the it does about anyone on this thread.  I pity you.

 

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May 29, 2012 3:28:04 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

We made so many topics  about balance , minidumps and focusing on multiplayer its not even funny.

They give a shit about us , so its time to move on.

 

Pitty this game has so much potential......

 

 

 

 

 

PS. Like i sad world is gonna end when i start to agree with Seleuceia. Sins world.,

Everything ends like this when u start to listen of the majority , not elite.

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May 29, 2012 4:04:58 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,


It's a public display of the morale of the player base.

No it's a public display of a minority of immature people rudely acting out--whether they are right or not. 

Quoting sareth01,
There is a very real anger stirring on the beta, people are just getting fed up.

Some people are angry and fed up...the ones acting out here are the ones who feel their opinions are the most important and are demanding that they be acknowledged as such.

Quoting sareth01,
We don't want to sink the ship, we want her to change her course.

This sounds more like a lynch mob wanting a pound of flesh a lot more than they want change.

Quoting sareth01,
Your casual aloof apathy says more about you the it does about anyone on this thread.

This is the third beta by a company I have been in where I've seen angry testers demanding subservience by the developers and threatening to bash their product if they didn't get an apology and all the changes they wanted, "Now!".

In the previous two, I saw the developers just say, "Screw it" and ditch the product and delete the forums and move on to a new project.

When  you get invited to beta test, it isn't an invitation to dump rage, rant and threaten--it's a chance to contribute constructive criticism with clear and thoughtful responses and to make observations--not demands.

If I came into your house, called you a moron and told you to study harder for school or I was going to go around and tell everyone what an idiot you were--how would you respond?

Your chance to actually bash the product is when it is pronounced finished by the company and you don't buy it or when you buy the finished product and it doesn't provide what was offered by the seller.

You might not recognize that the mindset and response represented here is less than 5% of the total players going by the previous polls and comments on the forums...but from the tone of these posts, you'd think they were the 90%... they certainly are in their own minds.

Screaming, angry, ranting school kids aren't going to provoke a lot of real change--you're just going to make the developers feel there's no point in trying to please you and then move on to something else.  Unlike you, they won't post angry rants--they'll just be doing new projects if you really want to tear down the house all the time.

I'm not apathetic.  Try PMing key people on the development team.  Try getting with your friends and crafting well thought out, clear and constructive suggestions and keep the thread up front and active.  Of course you can keep screaming insults--I'm sure that's going to work.

The person who does get paid to yell and scream and lean on the developers is the head developer and company head.  Try sending a private message, email or even an online petition to them.  If you make your case, they'll do the effective yelling and screaming for you.

Quoting sareth01,
I pity you. 

Really? You shouldn't.  There are starving kids in Africa and ones being gunned down in Syria and people unjustly imprisoned for crimes they didn't commit--pity them. This is a game and a business--it isn't going to be perfection incarnate or meet all of your needs.

When the game is settled and finished, I'll be posting right along with everyone about what I think was or wasn't delivered.  But I'll sure as heck do it smart and not like someone who failed anger management.

I don't disagree with everything said here--nor do I agree with all of it.  I think constructive critiques should be presented but not emotional tirades...that's all.

You might think "they work" but I guarantee you that they don't.

On a final note...I think it would be wonderful if the developers culled through the active player-poster base and selected ones they feel can offer balanced and insightful opinions and actually asked them to give a "no holds barred" evaluation of the project--at the point they feel that it would be helpful.

I don't think they'll be asking you with this attitude.

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May 29, 2012 7:35:15 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinperium,
Really? You shouldn't.  There are starving kids in Africa and ones being gunned down in Syria and people unjustly imprisoned for crimes they didn't commit--pity them.

That is possibly one of the most retarded examples I have seen on the forums.

Quoting Sinperium,
On a final note...I think it would be wonderful if the developers culled through the active player-poster base and selected ones they feel can offer balanced and insightful opinions and actually asked them to give a "no holds barred" evaluation of the project--at the point they feel that it would be helpful.

I don't think they'll be asking you with this attitude.

I find it amusing that you say that when it doesn't exist and they wont't do it. Why do you think they set up beta forums? They aren't gunna tell a couple guys to sit at a computer all day reading through everything on the forums to then select a small group of people who they think have a balanced idea of what the game should be and basically take them on as devs. Trying to say "your not good enough for them but people like me am" just because people are pissed with the trend of sins and they're views on the game.

Also people going on about trolls, anything passes for trolling now but you know what you do against trolls? Nothing, ACTUAL trolling doesn't start a discussion of people who don't care whether the op was a "troll" or not.

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May 29, 2012 8:39:13 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm not going to repeat every opinion I have stated in other threads. I just want to say that like many other ICO veterans I'm considering just giving up on Sins. I love this game, I have played it regularly for past 3 years and I'm one of last people to whine because there are few things in beta that need patching. Unfortunately, it's more than that. Continuous neglect of MP aspect of the game, MDs and abysmal state of balance have taken most of the fun out of this game. If things don't improve in coming months, I'm out of here.

 

 

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May 29, 2012 9:07:39 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting cirving4444,

Quoting Polistes, reply 28 This is meant to be an epic game that take hours or days to finish, where long term thinking and planning is supposed to matter over the short term actions taken.

 

LAWL!!!! There is no long term thinking in SP. Its main strategy is MAKE BIG FLEET AND ROFL AS YOU STEAM ROLL AI.

 

Yup, works every time. 10LF, 5 LRF, 5 flak, 10 corvettes, 3 and 2 utility cruisers, 5 heavies, few carriers, all capital ships apart from the useless one and a titan, and the AI is as good as defeated. Unless they have fully upgraded starbases, in which case i need torpedo cruisers, an Orkulus or bombers and then some.

Apart from minor adjustments to account for the new toys, that's been a working startegy since original Sins' release

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May 29, 2012 9:09:49 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

[Edit] it was 5 in the morning when i wrote this because my cats were jerks, so have some compassion b4 shredding my grammar or punctuation [/Edit]

 

As someone who plays both scII and sins, let me be the first here to clarify something: SCII is far from a click fest rush in 5 minutes and win/lose game. Anyone who claims that SCII is about rushing obviously has no grasp of the game or its mechanics. SCII is at its very core and in its very design an economy style of rts. Is it true that SCII games are far shorter than sins games? yes of course the games are shorter and the pace is much faster, but that does not make the game "cookie cutter" or a "click fest" I have a very low apm (actions per minute) style of play and yet i am able to consistently find myself getting ranked in diamond league (second highest tier if you ignore the grandmaster tier which includes only 200 players/accounts per region) on the matchmaking ladder in SCII because i have a decent grasp of mechanics tactics and strategies. if you want a better indication of SCII's true nature take a visit to http://day9.tv/ and watch some of his videos. they very from very serious discussions to funny shenanigans.

 

Now on to the sins part. Sins is great because it is a longer game, and sometimes the longer game can be a bit more relaxing. I will give people that compared to most other rts it is a lot less stressful specifically because it is slower and more relaxed. It is a game with a ton of potential and it does seem to be wasted by developers that appear to lack consistency in their product.

Just to start, the minidumps are aweful. I have played my fair share of computer games of all types and styles and i have never ever seen a game that crashed or desynced like sins does. I dont profess to be a programmer of any degree, but i find it a bit embarrassing that in my own sins experience, there is not a game that i play just about in MP where at least one person didn't minidump or desync. This is an issue that should have taken priority over even releasing the advent for the beta.

 

Secondly, it has ALWAYS confused me why sins has such a lack of focus on multiplayer when the game has no storyline. I can understand a huge portion of the community likes to rts vs the AI and whatnot and i spend a fair chunk of my time doing the same for the rolaplay factor of it all, but to have no storyline should automatically suggest a focus on multiplayer, and its just not there. Lets cover a few of the issues i notice:

-- poor multiplayer environment in general from the way the game lobby is organized and operated to the very un-engaging chat system.

-- no matchmaking of any kind

-- Difficult to differentiate player skill level in game lobby resulting in an average game setup time of 15-30 minutes (no joke check your watches) (keep in mind most other rts games u can already have played a full game in that time) (no one likes to sit around NOT playing the game for hours on end)

-- arguments about balance (i lack the experience playing to make my own assessments, but these arguments are there and they are heated and have some merit i think)

-- poor standardization of maps (this is my biggest argument. When the only map people play is random, strategies seem to fly out the window. People try to claim that randomizing the maps enhances strategies, but what do we always see? diplo saw 99% lrf spam, and rebellion now sees early corvette spam transitioning into flac spam. Its all very intellectually uninspiring. Games like starcraft 2 for example standardize their ladder maps for a very good reason. When you know your playing field you can exploit its features and plan ahead. When you dont know your playing field, you are forced to compromise and try to cover all of your bases at once. This is the biggest reason why MP becomes rather monotonous. The irony of it all is that the majority of the community tries to argue that sins as a game is less monotonous then games like SCII when in reality the opposite is true. The same style of play in sins is always being used and has been for as long as ive played, and when talking to veteran players has always existed. Track SCII over its history and notice an ever changing arena of styles strategies and tactics.

 

I realize that i have glorified SCII here in my topic but for good reason. Its a game that is amazingly successful and for very good reasons, however ALL OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES SCII SO SUCCESSFUL ARE THINGS THAT COULD BE INCORPORATED IN SINS. From a more engaging chat-room environment, to a matchmaking system that speeds up game creation, to stability fixes that make the game last, and the victories more meaningful (then roflstomping 5v1 cuz the poor guy's allies got minidumped)

 

I started playing sins diplomacy a few months ago because i wanted something new that involved spaceships and space combat. I had originally intended to find a game that involved tactics as opposed to strategy but there really aren't any out there of any real quality imo. What drew me to sins was the scale of combats. Something about large fleet fights is entertaining. I go back and forth between SCII and sins because the change in environment keeps them both fresh for me.

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