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Mobile starbases for all factions

By on May 29, 2012 6:40:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

sareth01

Join Date 08/2008
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Where the vasari starbases would be the fastest (we'll call this 100% starbase movement speed)

Advent starbases would move at 50-75% of this speed,

and TEC starbases would move at 25-35% of this speed.

This would ensure that all starbases are useful in defending their gravity well.  This also adds to the game's skill requirement as all the main defenses in the game aren't quite so static. 

This would also be a way to start to balance the vasari rebel's phase jumping starbases so that the vasari rebel tactical advantage isn't so huge when they use their starbases in a gravity well.

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May 29, 2012 6:53:55 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

nope that would be too generic sorry! vas sb should be the only moving one! tradition stays the same!

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May 29, 2012 7:00:25 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Then buff Vasa LF, corvette and LRF so they can take on equal cost/supply of their Advent and TEC counterparts...

Why do I even respond to troll posts... trolling is bad. You go to troll hell.

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May 29, 2012 7:03:27 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Nothing generic about it, every race should have moving starbases from the beginning.  Different movement speeds ensures different types of play and mixes the strategy up.

As it stands vasari starbases are interesting, the other races starbases are boring.  I'm seeking to increase the fun factor of the game by allowing all players moving starbases (something that SHOULD exist anyways, if you think about orbits a starbase would move, and require movement capability to maintain an orbit anyways...)

What currently exists is a vasari starbase that eats other starbases and fleets for breakfast all the while the other races starbases become more boring and more irrelevant.  Not to mention the stationary starbases aren't much fun at all once placed. 

Vasari would still have the movement speed advantage, and the vasari rebels would have the phase jump advantage as well.  This would also help to balance out the current imbalance that the vasari rebel phase jump has in the game.

Why do I even respond to troll posts... trolling is bad. You go to troll hell.

hmm this isn't a troll post at all, its a bit of beta feedback.  The case for my suggestion is even stronger then it was months ago considering the balance issues facing the game.

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May 29, 2012 7:08:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You know what happens if you try to build kanrak vs LRM? Mobile SB is "reward" for weak early game. If you give mobile SBs to other races, you need to compensate Vasa. I'm not even mentioning lack of anti-stucture cruiser....

Besides, it doesn't matter if SB moves with 100%, 50% or 25%. It's assault weapon. It just needs to get close to the structures.

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May 29, 2012 7:32:05 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The slower a starbase moves, the less effective it is at countering LRF, or any fleet for that matter.  The vasari starbase would still be the most effective by far as it would still actually be able to catch carriers. 

Having no movement at all means that the opponent will always know exactly how that starbase is positioned and they will always be able to sit at the edge of a gravity well with their fleet and not be too worried about defense. They never have to worry that that starbase could come attack their fleet when they decide to, and this is boring.  The current balance has always been one sided from the VERY beginning of entrenchement.  Now this specific balance outlined in this thread is needed more then ever because the initial balance was off, and now the developers are building on that initial balance to create unique factional starbase playstyles.  you might even see more TEC loyalists after something like this is implimented, and they wouldn't be overpowered!

Also, vasari have an anti structure ship, their new capital ship spawns these lil guys.  So your counter argument is also substantially weaker then it was pre rebellion.

Star bases need to be able to move around their gravity well to be able to DEFEND. 

The vasari starbase is really the main primary assault starbase because it is designed to be, with one more health and weapon upgrades ensuring that it wins in a 1v1 fight against the other starbases(it also has research to make it so it builds in gravity wells faster).  I expain the nuances not to imply that you don't know about it, but to ensure that the others who read this will be included in the conversation.

The thing is, as a defensive structure, to be able to defend a gravity well properly, the starbase needs to be able to move.  This means that the TEC and advent starbases both suck at their primary DEFENSIVE purpose.  Even when used on offense(which is rare!) they aren't very effective because they can't move!

I'm suggesting a little movement, not a lot.  its a good way to balance this game and increase the fun.  It doesn't take away the fun of being a vasari player, does it?

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May 29, 2012 7:44:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

One word.

 

No.

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May 29, 2012 7:56:49 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

one word,

yes

As you can surely see volt, its more complex then one word, so please communicate a reason why.

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May 29, 2012 8:09:21 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

horrific idea

 

there should be no reason why to even suggest this.

the mobile sb is ment compensate for the  lack of any other anti structure ship.

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May 29, 2012 8:12:48 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

i actually really like this idea

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May 29, 2012 8:18:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ShadowSlayer56,
i actually really like this idea

the fact that there is red button and meteor storm when the vasari have no aoe should be reason enough not to have the other two starbases go mobile.

mobile red buttons would be way overpowered especially with phase jump inhibitors to make up for slow speed.

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May 29, 2012 8:28:55 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Balance can be attained without faction homogeneity.

This would also be a way to start to balance the vasari rebel's phase jumping starbases so that the vasari rebel tactical advantage isn't so huge when they use their starbases in a gravity well.


If this is your real issue, then I think focusing on phase jumping starbases is better. That said, according to the logs, they've already attempted to balance it internally. Complaints should be put on hold until we can see how well it's been fixed.

Additionally, the vasari starbase can already be, more or less, effectively kited by a bomber heavy fleet. How would making the other starbases move even SLOWER prevent a fleet from sitting on the edge of the gravity well and ravaging the planet, starbase and all? I don't see how mobile starbases would fix anything.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to all starbases being able to slowly move, even if they had weapons disabled during it, to reposition. Something with no real combat bonus. I'd also like to be able to destroy/change modules on preexisting starbases. Is either going to happen? Doubt it. For now, I'll have to scuttle, shed a tear, and rebuild.

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May 29, 2012 8:37:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

the mobile sb is ment compensate for the  lack of any other anti structure ship.

Yet as i mentioned before, the vasari new capital ship allows both a vasari starbase to gain more armor (which is arguably better then having carrier healing support), and it allows a player to build cheap, free building destruction ships.  Considering that this new vasari capital is actually quite powerful, there is an incentive to spam it.  Getting the healing and structure destruction capabilities early allow the vasari some early punch against structures without risking kanraks (this is huge).  Endgame, the vasari have always used their BOMBERS to deal the bid punches anyways, so any talk about poor little anti structure ships is almost irrelevant, unless you talk of the TEC. 

As it stands the advent's starfish still isn't that good, and still costs too much in logistics.  This anti structure ship didn't get much of a recent change, its too limited STILL...

Also, the vasari have always had another good anti building technique, building the space egg to put a DoT and an armor reduction on a target, ensuring that even buildings go down with speed.

Its not like the vasari don't have serious options, its just that the vasari players want to limit the fun of the players that play other races.  This has been the case as a long time player of sins of a solar empire for a long ass time. 

The longer you new guys and gals play this game, the more you will see how the developers pander to the vasari, give simple ideas to the TEC, and still don't really know what to do with the advent.  Its like they are programmers, who have a bitch race (TEC), a woman race that they don't understand (Advent), and a cool group of outcasts that they want to OP because they themselves are social outcasts (Vasari). 

I find this very funny (and its not meant to be personal, programmer types) that the stereotypical view of the programmer is actually represented in the game design, if interpreted in this fashion.

@ rovert

the fully upgraded vasari starbase is a mobile slow moving AOE of death that doesn't have up front punch, but over time makes other AoE's look like childs play.

@ xubxub

I don't see how mobile starbases would fix anything.

Have you ever had a human vasari player build a surprise starbase while your fleet is out engaging their main fleet?

  Imagine how a mobile starbase, no matter how slow, would be able to engage that irksome vasari starbase before it is built, so that your already constructed starbase would then have an advantage over an alien construction project in your own gravity well?  The current game mechanics of the game are only this rediculous because the developers pander to the vasari race. 

The starbase being able to engage that vasari starbase while it builds ensures that this cheap and LAME tactic is only achievable when you have superior fleet.  It doesn't weaken the vasari player's ability to A, have a strong starbase, and B, have a strong anti structure ship.  The vasari would need to have a strong fleet to ensure that they can protect their starbase while it builds.  Now this is reasonable!

also if you don't defend your gravity well with a starbase, you too would fall prey to this strong vasari combo.  It shouldn't be a "one tactic fits all situations" strategy though.  Having it this way simplifies vasari strategy to the point that really skill isn't that important, its the strengths of the faction.

 

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May 29, 2012 8:55:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,
Imagine how a mobile starbase, no matter how slow, would be able to engage that irksome vasari starbase before it is built, so that your already constructed starbase would then have an advantage over an alien construction project in your own gravity well?  The current game mechanics of the game are only this rediculous because the developers pander to the vasari race.

get fighter/bomber upgrades= expensive, but in the end game ur front line planets have to have a defense be it for stopping scouts or for extra insurance to buy time for your fleet to return- you gotta have  a counter, and bombers are the counter!!!

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May 29, 2012 8:55:10 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

 Sareth! 

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May 29, 2012 9:11:54 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@ axxo

You talk of endgame, but i'm talking about early, mid game as well.

Anyways, bomber spam isn't the counter, because your fleet is engaging the vasari fleet somewhere else.  Naturally you can't pick and choose the strategy I carefully outlined (which occurs regularly in multiplayer) and not discuss where your fleet is.  The vasari have an inherent advantage over all other races because they can be fighting, and losing a fleet encounter yet win because their quick, super strong starbase is at your homeworld and you can't run back fast enough to defend your homeworld before it is built.  Your starbase doesn't move to go blast the construction project while its building (a risk that should exist for the vasari player).  Not every world will have a starbase that the vasari do this to, so they will have no risk on a gravity well not defended.  That being said, a STARBASE DEFENDED gravity well should kick the crap out of that strategy with auto attack(and reasonable starbase attack upgrades).

As it stands vasari starbase are the only ones really worth a damn, so why would you play TEC loyalists if you know that your starbases aren't even capable of moving, and their only real defense capability is to blow themselves up?  Oh and for all you people thinking meteor is so strong, it really isn't, i've tested this extensively.  You can't one/two shot a fleet with meteor, unless its all corvettes(yet the TEC ragnarov can...).  Anyways, meteor is an extremely expensive tech level 6 ability that is hard to get in multiplayer ( i think i would know if it was too easy to get...lol).  Anyways, Starbase durability is far more important then damage, period.  Your starbase is meant to tank the incoming damage so your fleet has time to arrive.  Movement alone greatly reduces incoming damage in this game, so the vasari have a hidden bonus to their defensive capability just by being able to move even a little bit!

Now if you want to talk about how all these new AoE abilities have rendered the expensive Meteor technology for the advent extremely expensive for what it actually gets you, and how the vasari have plenty of AoE capability now in their titans, please be my guest.  I am after all talking about how currently, starbase movement would greatly help balance the rebellion gameplay.

@ teun

Yep I did it.  I brought back the discussion, because the talking points have changed, giving more justification to this idea.

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May 29, 2012 9:22:46 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,
and their only real defense capability is to blow themselves up?

so how much damage will u do it u blow 2 tec star bases will full red button upgrades against vas sb armor and shields? dose that do significant damage?? to vas sb?

well all i can say i am PROUD of you to challenge the terrible vas. !!! props to you sareth, hey u should add an avatar to ur name!

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May 29, 2012 9:28:46 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yes in fact blowing two starbases would hurt a fully blown up vasari starbase, yet it wouldn't kill it.  That seems like a REDICULOUS trade, you lose two starbases just to hurt the vasari starbase...lol.  Remember your fleet can't be in the blast radius as well, so what is going to kill it?  You have to warp in and in that time i've seen people hotkey heal their vasari starbase up 25% with thier overseers... So in reality the terrans two starbases is absolute shit from a tactical point of view.  Oh did i mention that the vasari starbase moves while the two terran starbases don't?  So if you don't build the terran starbases together then the vasari starbase just takes them both out without even having to worry.

Now with movement, the TEC starbases could spread apart to limit incursions and then come together to deal with a vasari starbase/fleet. 

This would ensure that the tec loyalists are quite defensive indeed.  Who needs a range increase when you just allow starbase movement?

Its not hard to impliment, i know a few mods that already do this and its really quite fun! Sadly there is no easy online tools to allow for all the players to get the same mod and apply it for a quick game, so the online community is held at the mercy of whatever good and bad design decision the developers make.

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May 29, 2012 9:33:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

hmm why did u edit ur earlier comment??

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May 29, 2012 9:34:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting axxo2,
Props to you sareth, hey u should add an avatar to ur name!
You should make him one. I have something in mind that would be very fitting...

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May 29, 2012 9:38:27 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

lol what would that be?

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May 29, 2012 9:40:39 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Nope.jpg

 

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May 29, 2012 9:41:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@ axxo

because it was too personal and really after typing it i didn't feel that was really the way to go with the comment

@ teun

whatever

I find it funny how controversial this thread is...especially considering how much sense it makes to have all starbases move.  Perhaps i have some bitchy developers on my butt trying to just discredit me without providing a lick of sense.  After all they have already admitted that they use other unofficial titles to talk on the forums.  There there programmers, i know you are special. 

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May 29, 2012 9:50:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

       

had to do this !! sareth its funny- not to make fun of u but i got inspired by this post..

k maybe this is to personal as well i should delete this ... but hope u have a sense of humor

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May 29, 2012 10:07:26 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Seriously i like it lol!  That you spent the time on that picture warms my heart.  seriously it!

You have more class then riddleking when it comes to this, he just copied and pasted my name under the "It" clown(which was quite a compliment i might add..he stopped doing that though  ).

The picture has got a certain extreme look to it that matches with my personality.  Yet even if i am "extreme" in the fact that i'll explain myself until i'm blue in the face, it doesn't mean that i'm wrong.  It just means that I care enough to spend the time to write these mini essays.  And, if i wasn't justified i'd shut the hell up.  Yet I always strike where I know I have the advantage, anyone who plays me in sins knows this all to well.  I have the advantage here and i'll never give it up. 

And dude vasari starbases are scary!  Yet I don't want to weaken them, I just want to make other starbases have a reason to be built in this insane sins rebellion environment.  After all, vasari starbases are the only real defensive threat to a titan as well!  And the other racial starbases have really lost their usefulness.

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May 29, 2012 10:12:47 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

ok sareth ur cool thanks for understanding the joke! vas starbases are scary i think they should have stuck to the original concept art! have you seen it? in the middle there are like pieces (part of the hull) floating sorta in coherence with the fuselage ... it looked awesome but i think they went with the easy clean cut in the middle version...

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