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Mobile starbases for all factions

By on May 29, 2012 6:40:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

sareth01

Join Date 08/2008
+42

Where the vasari starbases would be the fastest (we'll call this 100% starbase movement speed)

Advent starbases would move at 50-75% of this speed,

and TEC starbases would move at 25-35% of this speed.

This would ensure that all starbases are useful in defending their gravity well.  This also adds to the game's skill requirement as all the main defenses in the game aren't quite so static. 

This would also be a way to start to balance the vasari rebel's phase jumping starbases so that the vasari rebel tactical advantage isn't so huge when they use their starbases in a gravity well.

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June 29, 2014 1:58:59 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oh... I understand what you're asking, now.  The ability to phase jump like a normal ship... not needing phase nodes.

Off hand, no, you can't.  That's hardcoded engine side.  There might be some tricky method where you can have the starbase create phase nodes at the surrounding grav wells, thus allowing you to get around it like that, but that would have other consequences with it as well.

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June 29, 2014 5:49:46 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting furyofthestars,

Oh... I understand what you're asking, now.  The ability to phase jump like a normal ship... not needing phase nodes.

Off hand, no, you can't.  That's hardcoded engine side.  There might be some tricky method where you can have the starbase create phase nodes at the surrounding grav wells, thus allowing you to get around it like that, but that would have other consequences with it as well.
damn... oh well i guess. I wonder why they changed it into a hard coded thing after 1.5 though. The vasari one didn't need phase nodes before. 

Thanks for the help anyway though. 

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June 29, 2014 8:09:42 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I realize this mod was proposed in 2012, but with the nerfs that the Vasari got along the way, if you want to have a semblance of balance with this mod in 1.82, you need a few extra things:

  • Vasari repair plat doing 25-35/s (possibly with a research tier) not 15/s.
  • Vasari skirmisher (LF) costing 6 supply at the most, although something like 5.5 would be more adequate, so buffing it by some 10% in dmg & hull at 6 supply is okay too
  • Assailant costing 5 supply at the most, and Vasari corvette (at 4 supply) also needs a damage buff

And now you have a game of three turtles. Not really, but assaulting SBs becomes the name of the game. Instead of two similar races (TEC/Advent) and one very dissimilar one, you now have three very similar races.

 

 

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June 29, 2014 12:19:23 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@syuvial: Not sure.  There's a lot of stuff the devs have hardcoded into this game that many of us are a little dismayed and/or confused over.

 

@Respawned: Not sure that would be needed?  We're talking merely mobile starbases within their own grav wells, not phase jumpers. (Well, syuvial was asking about that, but that was independent of the thread as a whole and he mentioned he didn't care about balance).  Either way, once the test mods I've uploaded to wincustomize finally get approved (see back 1 page), Sareth and whoever else wants to can give it a look see.  I uploaded 2 versions, one at 10% speed for both TEC/Advent, and one closer to what Sareth asked for in his initial post: 25% TEC, 50% Advent.

While I haven't play tested the 25/50 one yet, I do like the 10% one.  Too slow to be usable while under attack, but fast enough to allow you to do a bit of repositioning if needed.  And really, it makes some semblance of sense for it to be mobile... the Starbase would obviously have thrusters of some sort on it to keep orbit (and in game it is capable of turning), so it'd only make sense that these same thrusters could be used in repositioning, even if slow.

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June 29, 2014 1:10:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@sareth, yeah, there looks to be an approval process.  I'll keep an eye on it and post once they've been approved.  If by EoD Monday they still haven't been approved, I'll contact them to figure out what's going on.

Thank you fury!

I realize this mod was proposed in 2012, but with the nerfs that the Vasari got along the way, if you want to have a semblance of balance with this mod in 1.82, you need a few extra things:

  • Vasari repair plat doing 25-35/s (possibly with a research tier) not 15/s.
  • Vasari skirmisher (LF) costing 6 supply at the most, although something like 5.5 would be more adequate, so buffing it by some 10% in dmg & hull at 6 supply is okay too
  • Assailant costing 5 supply at the most, and Vasari corvette (at 4 supply) also needs a damage buff

And now you have a game of three turtles. Not really, but assaulting SBs becomes the name of the game. Instead of two similar races (TEC/Advent) and one very dissimilar one, you now have three very similar races.

You should read my thread on 1 titan vs. 2 titans, it too is old yet still valid.  In that discussion I point out that every vasari player can bring his/her 1 titan and a starbase to the fight(the rebels really do get 2 v 1 with their jump starbases).  This ensures that your titan + fleet will lose against their 2 titans + fleet.  It's inherent in the high balance of the game, right when rebellion was first coming out.  This is not even close to a semblance of balance.  Real balance is achieved with the abilities themselves, the nuanced movements of the fleet, how players can micro their way to victory, instead of just having massive inherent racial advantages.  The biggest advantage vasari have is their ability to easily create time delays that reduce efficacy of opposing fleets with little investment.  Facing skilled vasari players in the endgame is a losing battle, they are designed to 2v1 or 3v1 players, that is why we have players online who don't quit some games just so they can maw everyone's fleets to death.  

Before testing the mod, I don't think the vasari need any buffs, their myriad of other major advantages will still maintain balance. Once you have 5+ overseer's it becomes very hard to destroy starbases.  This will just require vasari players to move their fleet more.  Vasari will still have the best turtle defense by far, so their playstyle will be largely unaffected, only their attacks on other players will require more movement.  The inherent advantage of the Vasari being able to defend effectively against incursion with just a starbase effectively reduces the tactics available to EVERYONE in the game, making the game more about starbases and less about fleets(Vasari playstyle will become more varied as they can't just park a starbase on a gravity well With an enemy starbase already there and maybe build some more fleet instead of this one tactic).  Vasari skirmishers are quite good with the right fleet, its just that everyone builds starbases as a rule right now because of the massive early/mid game advantage they provide.  In fact the only player mixing it up seems to be Huy Mac with his vasari capital ship rush.

The point of this fix is that it's not a concession trade off, Vasari are grossly imbalanced as it is.  Another necessary nerf is to change how resource feed can be given to other players by providing upgrades to vasari players requiring them to research this before they can even receive a resource feed from an ally, as early feed for a Vasari player does only one thing, imbalance them to a degree that they can EASILY 2v1 players.  This happens all the time, and no it's not skill based.  Throw in the existing starbase upgrade bug and they become, from a practical standpoint, impervious to direct assault for about 1-2 hours.  

All of these advantages allow the Vasari players to have amplified skill relative to the other races, without actually possessing that skill.  This is not your normal sort of imbalance in an RTS, this is one that numbers on excel spreadsheets are not effective at discovering.  

I will see if anyone else wants to play the mod and maybe we can get a public multiplayer community test on this mod.

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June 30, 2014 7:52:21 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think I'm the only person on this forum to have played vs. himself full-length matches (thus ensuring near equal skill level, almost by definition, on both sides) and I can tell you that the Vasari will not get to have "5+ overseers" in any game with 3-jumps (o less) between them and the enemy. As the game is "balanced" in 1.82, the Vasari extractors and labs will die before then even without movable SBs on the TEC/Advent side. There are presently some annoying bugs in the dev exe which make it rather difficult to play vs. yourself, but you should give a try before professing that such and such is going to happen in late game (which is never reached most of the time if the enemy is not clueless)... Many players on ICO delay too much in attacking all sorts of objectives.


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June 30, 2014 9:06:27 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Respawned, I think you guys might be talking about different timings in the game.  I believe Sareth is more concerned about mid-late game, whereas you're covering early game.

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June 30, 2014 10:34:39 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

As 

Quoting furyofthestars,

Respawned, I think you guys might be talking about different timings in the game.  I believe Sareth is more concerned about mid-late game, whereas you're covering early game.

Paraphrasing what a famous economist said (about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term_Capital_Management): to be right in the long run, you must first survive the short term.

I should probably experiment/practice the 5-jumps away starts too, but given the current level of bugginess of the game, I haven't really tried any hour-long level of play in Sins in like two weeks now.

 

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July 1, 2014 9:48:04 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Doh... well, I screwed up those uploads to wincustomize.  Had symbols in the name and they had to reject them.  *sigh*  I'll get fresh ones uploaded this evening and hopefully they'll get through a little quicker.

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July 1, 2014 3:24:19 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@ Fury

Thank you!

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July 1, 2014 3:39:22 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting syuvial,
Off hand, no, you can't. That's hardcoded engine side. There might be some tricky method where you can have the starbase create phase nodes at the surrounding grav wells, thus allowing you to get around it like that, but that would have other consequences with it as well.

I don't think this is correct...the original modifier that allowed SBs to jump without phase nodes is still in the game...when the devs changed the VR tech, they actually just added a new modifier...

StarBasesCanHyperspace

StarBasesCanHyperspaceOnlyToPhaseNodes

Both of those modifiers should work...

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July 1, 2014 3:44:12 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Can we just let this thread die already? Its an obvious troll post.

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July 1, 2014 6:44:04 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Stilat,

Can we just let this thread die already? Its an obvious troll post.

I see a mod that has been made over this post.  Potentially room for even more awesome improvements to the game, demonstrated clearly for all to see, or the actual end of this thread if the idea itself is without merit via testing.  Perhaps you will get your wish stilat.

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July 1, 2014 7:55:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
I don't think this is correct...the original modifier that allowed SBs to jump without phase nodes is still in the game...when the devs changed the VR tech, they actually just added a new modifier...

StarBasesCanHyperspace

StarBasesCanHyperspaceOnlyToPhaseNodes

Both of those modifiers should work...

Thanks for the correction, Sel.  I didn't realize they'd actually left us something to play with....

 

@sareth, I just resubmitted the mods up to wincustomize.  Here's to hoping they're seen and approved in good order.  I guess even though it's typically the mods & admins that do they approvals, something was mentioned to me that they work in an office here in the US and as such only do it during normal US business hours. *shrug*

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July 1, 2014 11:13:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I chose to make the TEC star base able to attack within the entire gravity well (range:40,000) This doesn't give mobility, but does provide an equality to the star bases. What do you gives feel about that?

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July 4, 2014 10:14:36 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Haha

That sounds epic

Not sure what 40,000 range is but assuming it doesn't work on an entire Star's gravity well; that would be hilarious

This is a great idea, make it an addition upgrade to the weapon systems, such that it adds another bank of weapons that are only strong against structures 

I think this would be balanced by the fact that you have to use an upgrade point on it, it wouldn't require additional research but would require lots of money which is hard early game

-----------------------------------

As for the Vasari Rebels being overpowered late game, I think that's their point of swag, they get diplomacy and try to make friends and otherwise turtle to survive the mid game, then late game they help their allies with phase nodes and jumping starbases

Vasari Loyalist point of swag is having all they need on their capital ships, so in a cramped world (not enough logistic slots) they have an even better late game than the Vasari Rebels

BUT early game TEC economy is pumping out ships, especially torpedo cruisers (at a much greater number than the Vasari nanite swarm equivalent), and just Zerg rush the Vasari

MEANWHILE Advent are pushing their culture and the Vasari are losing planets, even if the starbase is holding the planet from being colonized the Vasari can't keep up the trades and they can't attack the Advent because this is before they have their mega-death-fleet-starbase-combo

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I like to random my race, but if I really wanted to win, I would go:

Vasari Loyalist on a Tiny (2 planets 2 asteroids each) map, build capital ships and turtle until you out-research and out-economy the enemy
TEC on single star medium map, Loyalist or Rebel would depend on Pirates, but either way I would aim to expand quickly and get economy going so you can be aggressive early-mid game
Advent on a single star medium map, or muliple stars but with less planets per star, Loyalist against TEC, Rebel against Vasari, once again aiming to expand quickly and get economy going, but also pushing culture especially if there is a unoccupied star, if you can setup quick you can stop others colonizing just with your culture
Vasari Rebel on a single star or multiple star so long as there is lots of planets, make friends and turtle until the ol' kostura-cannon-mega-death-fleet-with-starbase-and-allies trick

But I am definitely not great at this game so I could be way off

My point is that Vasari have their late game advantages but I think the only way to come close to guaranteeing yourself surviving til lategame is to have a TINY map with VL, or a HUGE map with VR

----------------------------------

tl;dr 1+1=42 Something like that...

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July 4, 2014 2:59:27 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

MEANWHILE Advent are pushing their culture and the Vasari are losing planets, even if the starbase is holding the planet from being colonized the Vasari can't keep up the trades and they can't attack the Advent because this is before they have their mega-death-fleet-starbase-combo

The advent fleet/starbase combo only works effectively with repulse.  getting repulse and a mega fleet starbase death combo is so resource inefficient as to ensure that you won't be able to get both in a timely manner.  By the time you get both, the vasari have a far superior fleet that can jump around everywhere and avoid your defenses, while you cannot hope to successfully assail theirs as their starbase can move/kite your fleet(luring it inside the grav well so that their fleet has more time to decimate yours while you retreat when they phase node jump back).  

Culture is the least skill required racial focus in the game and its efficacy is easily neutralized by 1 culture center.  Does culture need to be balanced and improved? Yes...but that's for another thread.  Considering all of the advent's other costs (like maintaining a competitive fleet) culture takes a back seat most of the time.

The ideas you outline and the developers designed work well on paper, the nuance of how they are implemented should be the focus of the discussion.

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July 6, 2014 1:24:14 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Sorry for the delay... holiday week/weekend...

 

WORKING LINK!

http://www.wincustomize.com/explore/sins_mods/185

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July 6, 2014 3:47:46 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@ Fury  I LOVE YOU.  SERIOUSLY.

Okay...I am amazed.

I have put the files in to check it out and i'm blown away.  Not by the "overpowered aspect", in fact there is nothing overpowering at all about an advent starbase that moves at 50% speed of the orkulus, fleets EASILY retreat from it, the only time it becomes perilous is when the advent starbase has phase jump inhibitors, which SHOULD be perilous.  I'm going to test the TEC  loyalists in a bit with moving red buttons...two moving red buttons at the same time actually.

The advent starbase is slow in a relative sense.  But that itself doesn't mean anything, it's movement is surprising well done, its like they were initially designed to move...  I've been testing it for movement inside of clusters of buildings and there are no issues so far.  

The biggest part is that the advent don't "feel" like the vasari.  The speed is so much slower that the vasari tactics are completely different and play out in a different tactical manner.  The advent bring their starbase in as a sort of "gentle pressure" on the enemy fleet, if the enemy stick around they are likely to get mass distortioned and meteored, but it takes a while for the starbase to cross a gravity well, requiring more player skill in the attack and avoidance of starbases.  I don't see any problem with the ranges of either meteor or mass disorient, 1 meteor doesn't kill a fleet and ships can easily run away from a starbase before they get even close to mass disorient.  The point is though, enemy fleets will actually have to move AT SOME POINT to avoid the advent starbase, providing defense and higher coordinated fleet strategy.

Overall, for the first time playing as advent, I felt that the investment I put into a starbase was worth while, although obviously not nearly as good as the orkulus it actually does one thing: Defend my gravity well.

I'm pleasantly surprised by how subtle and natural the feel of these changes are to the game.  

This is the best idea for increasing the amount of strategic options in the game.  

Direct quote from Khaan/The_Bees on steam chat:

KHAAAAAANNNNNNNN: It makes me want to play the game again

He is currently playing company of heroes with another sins player, Ekko.

Now playing as TEC loyalists...the slow speed of the starbase doesn't allow for a lot of fleet chasing, yet it does one thing well.  It can now engage the enemy with all firing points.

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July 6, 2014 10:55:16 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Glad you're liking it.

Just remember what I said about the TEC starbase, though...

Quoting furyofthestars,
The catch, however, was with the Tech starbase....  If you upgrade it to include remote construction... the buttons bug out and overlap with the movement buttons.  Dev.exe throws a bunch of errors every time you select the starbase and you can only hit the frigate construction button, not the cruiser one.  You can get around this, however, by selecting the planet and get the build buttons there, owned, friendly, neutral, or enemy.

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July 7, 2014 12:20:39 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The icon issue is not much of a bug though, I didn't even notice it as I just selected the planet automatically when I couldn't build another starbase constructor from my starbase.

This post shouldn't be just a mod though, the movement of the starbases works so well it's like it was meant to be implemented into the game.  

As TEC Loyalists i can actually attack vasari without as much worry about them (granted this is vs 3 vasari AI on unreal difficulty).  Still, I let the game drag on and on so that I could see what would happen vs a lvl 10 titan.  Sure enough, two moving TEC argonev starbases could take out a lvl 10 Vasari Loyalist titan if micro'd a little bit.  This is normally not the case, as the titan can engage each non moving starbase from its weakest side of firing to minimize dps and therefore take out both starbases with relative ease.  That is not a defense.  We have been playing this way for years, full well knowing that advent and TEC have far less defensive capabilities than that of the vasari.  This advantage has been summed up into one major simple point by me in this thread: Moving starbases.  

The TEC starbases still play relatively the same as they do already in the game since they are so slow, yet the movement allowing the TEC player to dictate where they will be is incredible.  Also, the moving big red buttons are nice, but extremely easy to avoid as well, just don't sit there in the gravity well.  I didn't see anything overtly overpowered with moving red buttons that move like a slug on opium.  

Even moving slowly, I was able to effectively defend my planets because the TEC starbase could bring all it's banks to fire into the enemy fleet.  It's quite a bruiser and for the first time it fights as cool as it looks.  

Instead of laughing at advent and TEC starbases, I could actually see them receiving a measure of strategic respect that was never afforded to them in the past.

This is the single simplest change that could be made to the game to greatly improve the multiplayer aspect of the game.  Considering the higher cost of the advent TEC starbases, it would only be fair that they have a measure of equal basic capabilities:

LIKE MOVEMENT.

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