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Mobile starbases for all factions

By on May 29, 2012 6:40:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

sareth01

Join Date 08/2008
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Where the vasari starbases would be the fastest (we'll call this 100% starbase movement speed)

Advent starbases would move at 50-75% of this speed,

and TEC starbases would move at 25-35% of this speed.

This would ensure that all starbases are useful in defending their gravity well.  This also adds to the game's skill requirement as all the main defenses in the game aren't quite so static. 

This would also be a way to start to balance the vasari rebel's phase jumping starbases so that the vasari rebel tactical advantage isn't so huge when they use their starbases in a gravity well.

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May 31, 2012 6:03:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@ sinperium

Actually, there is nothing dumbed down at all.  We are actually currently experiencing the MOST dumbed down version of starbases, two starbases that don't even move.

that is extremely simple and boring, and there is no real skill involved aside from initial placement. 

What I propose adds a skill element to using the other 2 racial starbases while not destroying the fun of any race.

Who cares if the concept is simple! I ONLY GIVE A SHIT ABOUT HOW IT WILL PLAY.

Sins is the epitomy of a game that uses SIMPLE concepts and applies them together to create a very complex game. 

The game is greater then the sum of its simple concepts.

Chess is like sins in this fashion. Simple pieces that move (heck even chess pieces can move more then advent/TEC starbases...), across a checkered board.  Simple simple simple, yet its the game of ages.

Simple concepts are effective.  How you can apply them allows for a greater depth of complexity.  I show I know what i'm doing with how I apply them.  I do however go into great depth about these simple concepts, which make them seem less simple then what they are.  That is because nothing in sins is an island, even small changes affect other things.  I show how this will occur as justification for balance using my extensive gameplay experience.

Sinperium, I am the last person that wants to dumb down the game.  If you really actually read to what i'm typing instead of just blandly "sareth posted something time to oppose it", you might actually see that you aren't right in thinking that the game would be dumbed down. 

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May 31, 2012 6:10:57 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting AseOfSpadez,
Got an idea.

What if instead of making the other starbases move something more solid was done.  At this point most of the starbases are irrelevant so in my opinion upgrading them would do good.

How about the advent starbase gets like a 50% increase in its max starfighter capacity and instead of getting that psionic wave attack it gets beam weapons (which can be upgraded using research)

The TEC starbase could get a 33% increase to health and shields and the upgrade for trade that you can give them could be upgraded by 33% also to make it more viable economically.

Both tie in with their races strengths and so are more acceptable than making them able to move  (not saying it was a stupid idea but it's sort of short-sighted.

Well the developers already have this idea, the advent starbase can field the most strike craft bar none(it gets a whole extra upgrade for this).  As for my idea being shortsighted, I would say, prove it.  I've only seen this idea gain justification as time has gone on.  The TEC starbase would benefit the most from mobile starbases.  The fact that many don't see this just boggles my mind.  A very slow moving red button is scary.  Far more scary then an advent starbase.  Its so scary that I would be afraid of a TEC starbase over a vasari starbase in some situations.  The advent starbase would still be the weakest of the 3 utility wise(even considering the advent's defenses).  So if you think i'm biased for advent, think again.  Simple fix to increase the fun of all 3 factions.  After all, vasari players would have to move their fleets more and actually do something skilled.

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May 31, 2012 6:33:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I like the game too and all poking aside I don't like homogenizing things so it's "better".

Chess is a perfect example of a symmetrical game and I actually enjoy playing chess.  Playing a space game with more complex units is a wargame--and that is very different in feel and style than chess--by design.

Asymmetric balance is the hardest kind of game mechanic to deal with because there are so many situational possibilities.

Moving away from it becasue it's too difficult is a step back.

I am not a fan of the double rainbow TEC bases either.

The Vasari starbase is clearly intended to be a "one-of" and to be fearsome and threatening like the deathstar in SW.  Giving the rebels their own deathstars isn't a creative counter.

The changes should reflect the factions already shown trends and strengths and preferences.

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June 1, 2012 12:43:33 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yes I agree asymmetric balance is difficult, and i was impressed when the developers thought to design a game with those elements.  The best way to know how to balance the game with asymmetric balance would be to play the game a lot to get a real experience based understanding of how to balance these incalculable variables.

The changes should reflect the factions already shown trends and strengths and preferences.


I couldn't agree more.  The two starbases with movement capabilities would actually have a stronger presence in the game.  They could challenge opposing titans in their own gravity wells.  The vasari titan would still be the top dog, being faster and more capable of taking out enemy support structures, and it would still have its beastly extra weapon/health upgrades.  They would still be extremely fearsome because they are fast.  A vasari player doesn't lose any fun playing as their favorite race. 

The other two types of starbases are far less effective, so their asymmetric balance isn't even on the same level, because they aren't even basic, balanced ideas.  Movement increases vasari starbases usefulness by about 75%+ more then other stationary defenses.  I get this number because a vasari starbase can defend its entire gravity well, while a stationary starbase can defend about 1/4 of its gravity well.  Thats a reasonable, plain and simple way to look at it.  This is the most important aspect of space defense, because you can chase away an enemy fleet (I call this an effective defense).  The vasari still wouldn't be very threatened by an opposing player's starbase construction in their gravity well, as the vasari player can build their own starbase in their gravity well faster (with upgrades, FAR FASTER), and the vasari starbase is so much stronger against other racial starbases.  The vasari would still be very difficult to crack defensively, yet the other races would have their arms untied from behind them so that they too could defend their planets.

If this were anything close to an actual universe, the primary focus of the advent and the TEC military would be to give their starbases thruster capability to deal with the vasari ability to attack any part of their empire, at any time.  Not having this destroys storyline credibility.

Now, IF the TEC / Advent factions had moving starbases:

The advent starbase could, by itself, catch an enemy force that was too slow/not paying attention.  If I recall that is what its supposed to be able to do anyways, yet this ability is no fun in actual play because 99% of players stay out of range(usually just sitting their fleet doing nothing, which is a boring style of play), so therefore you have no chance to defend properly.  If it could move a little bit, it would allow a skilled player to set up a large entrapment scenario, which would A) cost a lot, and be very fun. The TEC could also create a large entrapment scenario.  The vasari fleet is very difficult to entrap(phase nodes), so its not like the vasari fleet is ever going to attack with a high amount of risk(naturally i'm talking mid - endgame here).  Yet the vasari player would have to step a bit more carefully around the universe and a vasari player would have to play better, and their mistakes would cost them more. 

As it stands vasari don't just have a critical movement advantage, they have ALL the movement advantage.  Even in areas where they most likely shouldn't(starbases).  The one advantage to movement that really matters, that really sets the vasari FAR apart, is the movement capabilities their fleet has with their PHASE NODES.  I don't want to get rid of this cool vasari movement advantage. 

Yet this alone is their primary, extremely unique, extremely powerful movement advantage. Wait, what, you can jump your titan ANYWHERE into an enemy empire, anytime you want with a kostura?  Wait what, you can jump your titan and a starbase ANYWHERE you want into an enemy empire if you build a starbase or get a lvl 6 titan/antorak maruader into enemy space?  Thats truly powerful.  The vasari will ALWAYS have the movement advantage, because no other race is going to get their phase node technology.  The vasari can both attack and defend in the endgame very easily.  If all they face are enemy starbases that can't move, then they will just sweep through.  It doesn't matter how skilled the player is, if they have a good knowledge of what's what in the game, they don't really need any skill to beat any defense once the game reaches this level.  Now with moving starbases, all races become a little bit harder to beat with this strategy. 

How does throwing the other races the tiniest of bones in regards to having starbases that can actually defend against an incursion in their gravity well take anything away from the game?

If the vasari can hit anywhere they want, at any point in time once they have phase nodes up, and be literally one jump away from anywhere on the map (thats what the pro's do), then you should have a starbase that can at least attempt to defend its gravity well against such a one sided advantage(in fact, how can advent even attack the vasari endgame? If you want real game balance end game attack should be a real option for all races).  Its one sided because the vasari starbase beats the other starbases 1v1, because its a beast.  Having starbases that can't move in a gravity well is having a starbase that doesn't defend anything effectively.  Its a starbase that doesn't need to be constructed.  Thats why people  mostly don't build TEC/Advent starbases in the early game, and thats why people build vasari starbases in the early game.  Its all about movement. 

Some movement capability is necessary for all races, vasari having all the movement capability is just a recipe for long term imbalance, because mobility is extremely powerful in a game, even if its not easily calculated.  I believe since it isn't easily calculated the developers failed at this balance when entrenchment first came out.  Yet they could fix this glaring imbalance, one that is even greater in rebellion because now the vasari starbase is the only starbase that can really defend against an enemy titan.  Why? because it can move to intercept the titan.

Not being able to defend against titans with mobility of your own is lame, lame lame lame lame.  Especially when a starbase would have to have maneuvering jets and thrusters to maintain its orbit.  All orbits degrade(except if you are in a legrange point, an area of equal gravity pulls between the sun and the planetary body in question.  Yet a defensive starbase would move anyways, because space is vast, and you will have to move to defend an area because you can't defend the entire surface area of a planet at once, it takes too much resources). If they want to maintain your sci-fi brand name, i'd expect you to at least incorporate this basic principle into the game.

Do you honestly think vasari scientists are the only ones that figured out that a starbase should be able to move?

Please.

 

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June 1, 2012 1:23:44 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I really like this idea. i think it would be fun and make the game a but harder but we have to face the reality of it, the dev will never add this into the game so the only way this will happen is in mods

 

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June 1, 2012 1:39:17 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

how about tec and advent starbases get 2 units - you have to research them "cosmetically" they are part of the hull of the bases (implement them into the design) when an emergency defense is needed they separate (sorta detach themselves) and wholaaa u have 2 cool purely defense vessels that can travel (only in the gravity well the SB is in) give them lots of armor have them be the scale between the cap ship and the heavy cruzer ( i know this is far fetched) but i would love ships being able to return to the host and attach itself like a part of the ship

dont know if sins engine can handle that... one could even use this idea even for a new titan...

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June 1, 2012 1:47:15 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,


The advent starbase could, by itself, catch an enemy force that was too slow/not paying attention.  If I recall that is what its supposed to be able to do anyways, yet this ability is no fun in actual play because 99% of players stay out of range(usually just sitting their fleet doing nothing, which is a boring style of play), so therefore you have no chance to defend properly.  If it could move a little bit, it would allow a skilled player to set up a large entrapment scenario, which would A) cost a lot, and be very fun. The TEC could also create a large entrapment scenario.  The vasari fleet is very difficult to entrap(phase nodes), so its not like the vasari fleet is ever going to attack with a high amount of risk(naturally i'm talking mid - endgame here).  Yet the vasari player would have to step a bit more carefully around the universe and a vasari player would have to play better, and their mistakes would cost them more. 

As it stands vasari don't just have a critical movement advantage, they have ALL the movement advantage.  Even in areas where they most likely shouldn't(starbases).  The one advantage to movement that really matters, that really sets the vasari FAR apart, is the movement capabilities their fleet has with their PHASE NODES.  I don't want to get rid of this cool vasari movement advantage. 
 

How does throwing the other races the tiniest of bones in regards to having starbases that can actually defend against an incursion in their gravity well take anything away from the game?

If the vasari can hit anywhere they want, at any point in time once they have phase nodes up, and be literally one jump away from anywhere on the map (thats what the pro's do), then you should have a starbase that can at least attempt to defend its gravity well against such a one sided advantage(in fact, how can advent even attack the vasari endgame? If you want real game balance end game attack should be a real option for all races).  Its one sided because the vasari starbase beats the other starbases 1v1, because its a beast.  Having starbases that can't move in a gravity well is having a starbase that doesn't defend anything effectively.  Its a starbase that doesn't need to be constructed.  Thats why people  mostly don't build TEC/Advent starbases in the early game, and thats why people build vasari starbases in the early game.  Its all about movement. 

Some movement capability is necessary for all races, vasari having all the movement capability is just a recipe for long term imbalance, because mobility is extremely powerful in a game, even if its not easily calculated.  I believe since it isn't easily calculated the developers failed at this balance when entrenchment first came out.  Yet they could fix this glaring imbalance, one that is even greater in rebellion because now the vasari starbase is the only starbase that can really defend against an enemy titan.  Why? because it can move to intercept the titan.


 

 

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

and all the other points you bring up, the fact that an enemy can park there fleet IN YOUR GRAVITY WELL and just sit there while a star base is in it means its NOT DOING ITS DAMN JOB. the only race that can heard the fleet where it wants is the vasari. not to mention theres is cheaper then the other races SB's.

 

oh and did i mention that it can become a Phase stabilizer so now not only can it move anywhere in the gravity well that it wants (or just anywhere if your the rebels) but now your able to send back up from anywhere that has another stabalizer while still being the mega doom space kraken of fear and annihilation  

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June 1, 2012 2:06:43 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yeah--I'd love a moving Transcencia that can meteor storm worlds and ships becoming an uber siege, anti-structure, anti-capital and and anti-frigate killer that can bring along mass disorientation "to go".

And yes, it would be really fun to drive my TEC starbases into your system and self-destruct in the middle of your enormous fleet.

It just doesn't have any clarity of purpose here other than, "I wantz eet!".

Tweaking starbase balance doesn't require redefining them.

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June 1, 2012 3:55:07 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Actually if you test the sheer raw power of a vasari starbase fully upgraded you will realize that  the orkulus starbase is far stronger then meteor storm in many situations(except in flyby attacks, the advent can get more burst damage in...OOOO AHHH SUCH A HUGE OP ADVANTAGE<---sarcasm).  Also the vasari starbase scales better with upgrades then the advent starbase because it has higher base health, armor and damage values.   The thing is meteor is over rated.  You will get 2 meteors in before you can retreat.  That is IF you get in range.  The only thing that will kill is a cloud of corvettes, and that dies in meteor #1.  Considering this is moving at half the orkulus speed, its not going to catch your fleet anytime soon, and your fleet will easily be able to move out of range.  You have plenty of time to react, and heck I think I found a reason to actually build an advent starbase (as in multiplayer I haven't built one in ages as they aren't worth it...and I play advent all the time lol).

And yes, it would be really fun to drive my TEC starbases into your system and self-destruct in the middle of your enormous fleet.

Critical point I think you missed, Only vasari rebels would be able to phase jump starbases.  By phase jump I mean jumping in between planets.  So you would have to build a starbase in the enemy gravity well to build a TEC starbase.  If memory serves, they aren't as tough, or nearly as fast building as a vasari starbase in an enemy gravity well.  So you have time.  Time to build carrier defenses to launch bombers.  Time to have this starbase close to attack range.  You will have time to get a fleet built. 

If you A) build it in the gravity well and your opponent isn't watching his entire fleet (endgame fleets would likely auto attack it to death before construction) B ) your opponent falls asleep for a few minutes to give you time to actually finish constructing(remember how starbases take longer to construct in an enemy gravity well?), and then falls asleep for a bit longer to let you upgrade the starbase.  Not to mention you have to GET IN RANGE, where your starbase is crawling along the gravity well trying to do so(so if your opponent wakes up at this stage, they can actually just move their fleet to buy them a minute or so to doze off again).  Yes I actually think you have plenty of time to get to safety, no more loligagging in an enemy gravity well containing a starbase with 0% risk.  So, if your opponent fails to move their fleet because they are sleeping they deserve to lose it.  You seem to think that the TEC starbase will be moving quickly.  It won't.  The Orkulus is relatively slow compared to a fleet.  The TEC starbase will be moving at 25% of that slow speed.  Crawling towards you.  If you lost your fleet you deserve it! 

Tweaking starbase balance doesn't require redefining them.

Star bases are meant to be defensive structures.  I'm assisting in increasing their defensive capability. Please show me how they are being redefined.  In space you have to be able to move to mount an effective defense.  Its simple really, the resources required to defend everything at once is enourmous and most likely unfeasible.  So movement is always going to be key in space defense, both in real life and in most every space video game i've played.  If memory serves, the Death star moved.  if memory serves, the international space station moves (and imagine that, it has thrusters too, our scientists right now are smart enough to determine this all on their very own!). 

It just doesn't have any clarity of purpose here other than, "I wantz eet!".

Actually you can't say that anymore, because every reason i've given you you cannot assail, because if you go test it for yourself and really think about how this would affect the game, you will find that i'm completely right.

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June 1, 2012 4:13:47 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting AseOfSpadez,
Got an idea.

What if instead of making the other starbases move something more solid was done.  At this point most of the starbases are irrelevant so in my opinion upgrading them would do good.

How about the advent starbase gets like a 50% increase in its max starfighter capacity and instead of getting that psionic wave attack it gets beam weapons (which can be upgraded using research)

The TEC starbase could get a 33% increase to health and shields and the upgrade for trade that you can give them could be upgraded by 33% also to make it more viable economically.

Both tie in with their races strengths and so are more acceptable than making them able to move  (not saying it was a stupid idea but it's sort of short-sighted.

 

There you go guys someone who is thinking along the line of what makes each races base unique to begin with. Let’s follow this line of thinking instead of cheap fixes / making things worse.

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June 1, 2012 4:51:16 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@ terriblenate

There you go guys someone who is thinking along the line of what makes each races base unique to begin with. Let’s follow this line of thinking instead of cheap fixes / making things worse.

All I can do is laugh at this point.  I really don't think nate or aseofspadez knows much about the game to begin with.  I'd enjoy stomping them both flat in a 2v1 situation.  Anytime boys, anytime (naturally after they fix minidumps/desyncs...and I may have found a possible source for that problem, going to test extensively tomorrow).

I think Nate wants to try his mind vs. my mind after all, hes been looking for a fight in a few threads.  I really hope you don't have much ego invested in your skills on sins nate, because I would really enjoy you sticking around to learn some more multiplayer strategy after I crush you the first 10-20 times.  Nothing personal, it just happens to the new guys.

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June 1, 2012 9:44:33 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,


 If memory serves, the Death star moved.  if memory serves, the international space station moves (and imagine that, it has thrusters too, our scientists right now are smart enough to determine this all on their very own!). 

 

Babylon 5, DS9

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June 1, 2012 10:13:13 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,
@ terriblenate


There you go guys someone who is thinking along the line of what makes each races base unique to begin with. Let’s follow this line of thinking instead of cheap fixes / making things worse.

All I can do is laugh at this point.  

 

indeed, it does not seam that anyone has even been reading your posts sareth..... 

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June 1, 2012 11:44:56 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,
@ terriblenate


There you go guys someone who is thinking along the line of what makes each races base unique to begin with. Let’s follow this line of thinking instead of cheap fixes / making things worse.

All I can do is laugh at this point.  I really don't think nate or aseofspadez knows much about the game to begin with.  I'd enjoy stomping them both flat in a 2v1 situation.  Anytime boys, anytime (naturally after they fix minidumps/desyncs...and I may have found a possible source for that problem, going to test extensively tomorrow).

I think Nate wants to try his mind vs. my mind after all, hes been looking for a fight in a few threads.  I really hope you don't have much ego invested in your skills on sins nate, because I would really enjoy you sticking around to learn some more multiplayer strategy after I crush you the first 10-20 times.  Nothing personal, it just happens to the new guys.

Quit being so arrogant


When the majority of the actual "pro" community in this game doesn't agree with you than you see that it's a BAD idea.


You forget the purpose of defense in the game. It's to delay your enemies for your fleet to arrive then make a decisive victory and move on. It's only the Vasari Rebels that have redefined that role with an attack SB. Before that the Orky was made for delaying. The Orky even with it's super high DPS can't kill a large fleet fast enough even with a phase jump inhibitor if they decide to run or bypass.  

The TEC and Advent may not be able to protect the "entire well" but they have something the Orky doesn't which is AREA DENIAL. You can run past the Orky without too much trouble. Advent with it's disorient and meteor will put a huge dent into your fleet. The TEC Red Button now with a buff can kill your fleet outright if you're not careful. The current TEC SB can deny access to a gravity well just from fear that no matter where you jump you can lose your entire fleet. This is further enhanced with Twin Fortresses to even blockade the largest of wells. Your belief that Advent and TEC SBs are "subpar" is misplaced. They all have their uses while it may not conform to the high mobility of Vasari; they can stop Vasari in their tracks if used right.

You may not be able to kill a Orky or Titan with Red Button or meteor but you can make sure that you can kill the rest of the fleet making the single large units easy pickings.

Fact is that your idea is a too radical of a change to current gameplay. No major change like this is even required with the current Starbases.

Sure the presence of Titans makes a small change but it isn't drastic enough to require that every starbase should move.

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June 1, 2012 1:07:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Timmaigh,
Quoting sareth01, reply 84
If memory serves, the Death star moved. if memory serves, the international space station moves (and imagine that, it has thrusters too, our scientists right now are smart enough to determine this all on their very own!).


Babylon 5, DS9

Babylon 5 and the death star were severely impacted by nearby gravitational fields...in fact, Babylon 5 always had to concern itself with thurster integrity lest it enter a decaying orbit...

Point is, "adjusting an orbit" (which thrusters do) and moving in the manner that Orkies do are two different things...

Anyway, I'll reiterate a previous statement: making all SBs able to move is just too big of a change to implement now for vanilla SoaSE...this is something that could be done right in a mod where the modder has the ability and expediency to realize many concurrent changes for maintaining balance...but for vanila, it is unnecessary and likely to cause more problems than it solves...

 

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June 1, 2012 1:24:09 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,

Quoting Timmaigh, reply 87Quoting sareth01, reply 84
If memory serves, the Death star moved. if memory serves, the international space station moves (and imagine that, it has thrusters too, our scientists right now are smart enough to determine this all on their very own!).


Babylon 5, DS9

Babylon 5 and the death star were severely impacted by nearby gravitational fields...in fact, Babylon 5 always had to concern itself with thurster integrity lest it enter a decaying orbit...

Point is, "adjusting an orbit" (which thrusters do) and moving in the manner that Orkies do are two different things...

Anyway, I'll reiterate a previous statement: making all SBs able to move is just too big of a change to implement now for vanilla SoaSE...this is something that could be done right in a mod where the modder has the ability and expediency to realize many concurrent changes for maintaining balance...but for vanila, it is unnecessary and likely to cause more problems than it solves...

 

 

....but....but...you are not reading with UNDERSTANDING  

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June 1, 2012 4:41:30 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think eventually, if this is not addressed, we will be saying "Apologize for playing that race!"

 

backs out of the room slowly...  

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June 1, 2012 5:19:18 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@ rovert

Quit being so arrogant

Lol


When the majority of the actual "pro" community in this game doesn't agree with you than you see that it's a BAD idea.

Nope, most of them will fight anything that will actually balance the game because most of them are vasari players.  There is a reason they are almost all vasari players.  So I fully expect them to vehemently oppose this idea, and look how much it has been opposed already.  Yet I still think they bring piss poor reasoning to the table, as I have demonstrated/asked earlier in the thread.


You forget the purpose of defense in the game. It's to delay your enemies for your fleet to arrive then make a decisive victory and move on. It's only the Vasari Rebels that have redefined that role with an attack SB. Before that the Orky was made for delaying. The Orky even with it's super high DPS can't kill a large fleet fast enough even with a phase jump inhibitor if they decide to run or bypass. 

I am not forgetting anything about defense.  Your enemies are in your gravity well, you should kick them out.  You can bypass a stationary starbase FAR easier then you can an orkulus(and i'd love you to debate this further...lol).  Orkulus starbases do eat fleets for lunch, and If you are caught in a phase jump inhibitor they really do destroy your fleet.  You can get away usually if the starbase is on the other side of the gravity well, yet that is rarely the case because prudent players already have their orkulus near where your fleet is going to jump in anyways.  Its called scouting your enemy, and good players do that all the time.  Once you know where they are, and you know where they are jumping to, its not hard to issue a move command to ensure that the second your gravity well is invaded, your orkulus is right there ready to munch on their fleet.

The TEC and Advent may not be able to protect the "entire well" but they have something the Orky doesn't which is AREA DENIAL. You can run past the Orky without too much trouble. Advent with it's disorient and meteor will put a huge dent into your fleet. The TEC Red Button now with a buff can kill your fleet outright if you're not careful. The current TEC SB can deny access to a gravity well just from fear that no matter where you jump you can lose your entire fleet. This is further enhanced with Twin Fortresses to even blockade the largest of wells. Your belief that Advent and TEC SBs are "subpar" is misplaced. They all have their uses while it may not conform to the high mobility of Vasari; they can stop Vasari in their tracks if used right.

Hmm I address this point in my own post.  The orkulus can protect 100% of its gravity well, the other two starbases can protect 25% of their gravity well with "area denial". Orkulus starbases have "area denial" of their own, you don't want to go near them for ANY amount of time.  My belief that the advent and TEC starbases are "subpar" is completely well founded, because I have a strong grasp of tactics and I understand the simple truth, that a moving vasari starbase entraps your fleet, and will move to where its needed if an enemy fleet attempts to escape your grasp.  No race can even come close to defending themselves like he vasari can(because of moving starbases).  If you really want to see things properly, mod the game, take away vasari starbase movement, give the vasari starbase Red button AND meteor and see how "amazing" your AoE area denial will be at defending your gravity well.  Yeah, you know i'm right but just don't want to admit it because others in the community are posting that its not feasible.  I have yet to hear their opinions on this, Yet I have thoroughly thought this out, there is nothing they can't throw at me that hasn't already been considered.

If you asked me which was more important, I would choose the orkulus, every time, because its defensive capability is 3 times that of the other starbases.  The online community agrees with me, I can safely say I see an orkulus starbase built about 3:1(I'm being EXTREMELY conservative on this number, in reality I would say that they are built more like 10:1).

You may not be able to kill a Orky or Titan with Red Button or meteor but you can make sure that you can kill the rest of the fleet making the single large units easy pickings.

Hmm ya, well you just build say 5/6 subverters in the mid game and lock down a fleet trying to get through your world long enough for a vasari starbase to wipe it out.  If you have a phase jump inhibitor your fleet is totally screwed.  Yet perhaps you haven't had your entire fleet easily wiped out like this.

Fact is that your idea is a too radical of a change to current gameplay. No major change like this is even required with the current Starbases.

Not very radical at all, no race gets unfair advantage, and the balance is going to be FAR easier for the developers to deal with in the long run.  It wouldn't change how many aspects of the game are played.  It would just give 2/3 races the ability to defend, and it would justify them building starbases, period.

Sure the presence of Titans makes a small change but it isn't drastic enough to require that every starbase should move.

Well I'm glad you can concede this point(no matter how little you try to do so), Yet at the same time when you face not one but two titans from either vasari player (orky + faction titan, vasari loyalists OR vasari rebels), you will be hoping that your starbase could AT LEAST move.  You will hope that your starbase can intercept the loyalist titan's construction.  I'm completely justified, if you ever really want balance in this game you will see it.

Yet we both know rovert, that when you play online, your "magically favorite race" will be vasari.  Because they are just "fun".  It wouldnt' be because they are inherently designed to be overpowered, would it?  lol.  You and the rest of the online community, since entrenchment.  lol.

I think eventually, if this is not addressed, we will be saying "Apologize for playing that race!"

Now here is someone with some grasp of proportion.

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June 1, 2012 5:39:30 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It seems I was unclear. I meant that the tactic that seems to be a problem for you (sneaking a vasari starbase into a well, fully upgrading it and killing any other race SB including defensive structures), is pretty similar to sneaking some torpedo cruisers into the well. Both tactics are countered by having a fleet in the well.

We also heavily disagree with the vasaris need for an antistructure cruiser (with the corresponding nerf to SB build speed in hostile wells). You name three reasons: 1. Phase missiles 2. Strong capitals 3. The 'dueling' starbase.

I do not really agree that points 1 and 2 are equal to having a decent antistructure cruiser and the third is negated if the opponent is actually guarding his well with a fleet. Not to mention the thematic "mobility race is the slowest on the offence"-problem.

I mean if all SBs move, all races would be immune to the main vasari antistructure weapon in all wells it was needed in. I mean you have to admit that that would be kinda stupid? Now you can at least perhaps use it on 2 of the races...

 Edit: Ok a new argument: "You can easily pass a non vasari starbase." Wouldn't it be simpler to work on that instead? I mean you can't be serious that for example the TEC base moving at the 25% of orky speed would run down a fleet?

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June 1, 2012 5:54:18 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@ toivoton

I mean if all SBs move, all races would be immune to the main vasari antistructure weapon in all wells it was needed in. I mean you have to admit that that would be kinda stupid? Now you can at least perhaps use it on 2 of the races...
 

Not true, as you could just build Overseers to heal the starbase while it is being constructed in a gravity well, and mine around the starbase the second it lands to be built in a gravity well.  This is quite a standard practice in multiplayer, making it so even a fleet has a hard time killing a starbase before it's fully built up.  Its funny how vasari players don't like Z-axis movement when people avoid their mines in this situation to strike at the starbase risk free, thats why you see threads to get rid of Z-axis movement.

Also, since the vasari starbase would move 2x as fast as the advent starbase, and 4x as fast as the TEC starbase, they could ALWAYS keep an enemy starbase in range with their weaponry(this is by my design, to maintain balance), so the vasari starbase maintains the advantage.

We also heavily disagree with the vasaris need for an antistructure cruiser (with the corresponding nerf to SB build speed in hostile wells). You name three reasons: 1. Phase missiles 2. Strong capitals 3. The 'dueling' starbase.

I do not really agree that points 1 and 2 are equal to having a decent antistructure cruiser and the third is negated if the opponent is actually guarding his well with a fleet. Not to mention the thematic "mobility race is the slowest on the offence"-problem.

Yes, phase missiles really are that good for endgame encounters, the vasari bomber spam is the most feared thing in the game, bar none. If you played online and played the pure vasari phase missile fleet of 40 lasuraks and two fleets of 50+ kanraks in diplomacy, you would realize that a vasari players primary weapon upgrade should be phase missiles.  It was only because phase missiles were abused for so long, so heavily in this fashion, and after a few threads (that I was a significant part of) that the advent even got some phase missile blocking.  This abuse was the main reason that corvettes came into existance as well. 

If you want to defeat ogrovs easily, spam corvettes, or scouts to kill them(you may lose a few structures, but you will whittle them away...I killed 20 ogrovs once with only 10 scouts...lost only 5 trade ports...lol).  You should scout your opponent regularly, because if you don't you will just lose because you don't have enough battlefield intel.

is pretty similar to sneaking some torpedo cruisers into the well. Both tactics are countered by having a fleet in the well.

Not even close, as i've stated before, you could spam a few corvettes/scouts to counter the ogrovs.  You can't just spam a few scouts/corvettes to defeat a starbase.

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June 1, 2012 9:26:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I've not played multiplayer (online multiplayer that is) much... but in this new beta, i am trying to get the 4 hard ai achievement. To that end i walled the hell out of a star with 4 star bases as the tec and as the advent, i noticed that if i built star bases equally around the stars to uniformly cover the phase lanes that the enemy pretty much piled on them and they were ineffective solo. After some strategizing i ended up stacking them in a small space blocking one phase lane and the results were interesting:

I never lost a star base, even when i left them totally fleetless... even against titans (they did end up producing some fleet of their own ) this went on for the course of 4 hours several times even through end game. However the remaining phase lanes were effectively unprotected... unless the enemy decided to wander over to the star base death trap. This was sub optimal and spent a large amount of time working on effective strategies to deal with this. (The star's gravity well was literally in combat for well over 3 hours till i shelled 3 of the 4 ai out of the game with the cannons)

Beta 3 comes out and i get to go back to the race i played pretty much exclusively through the previous installments... 3 mobile star bases around a star and i'm having no trouble clearing all 4 opponents attempts with minimal fleet involvement... mostly because they're out there chasing down the small fragments trying to ge through and when big fleets come in, they group up. 

Then i researched the warping starbases and i bugged out my star bases in the star well so i could only have 1... Life got difficult again

The vasari have always been about the mobility of their fleets from my perspective, but trying to do an epic star base defense with tec or advent was kinda like the french maginot (sp*) line... (tl;dr version is that the germans just went around it cause it didn't totally block off the whole of france) The defense is impressive if the enemy decides to attack where you're strong, the defense is weak if they go around it.

 

Either way though, even with vasari star bases, enemy fleets can still warp in from another star, turn around and hit a planet before you can do anything... or just go around the other side of my star/planet well
If star bases are going to be the serious means of defense you want them to be... instead of necessarily movement, they need something that makes them a lot harder to just ignore and travel around...

Could also make construction frigates capable of slowing construction tremendously to ensure there's at least a bit of a fleet with it...

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June 1, 2012 9:59:42 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@ skarlathamon

If star bases are going to be the serious means of defense you want them to be... instead of necessarily movement, they need something that makes them a lot harder to just ignore and travel around...

Yet, starbases all having movement does seem to be the simplest change one could make to deal with a lot of key fundamental design imbalances in this game.  What you suggest would add more abilities to each starbase, Yet defensively they would still only cover 1/4 of the gravity well, so enemy fleets will still just sit there unassailable.  No risk for the enemy, and they can choose to assault you whenever they please.

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June 1, 2012 10:04:59 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

AI is not where starbases have issues. That is where they are fairly effective. 

 

@ the OP
From the get-go, I do not like the idea of mobile dual BRB starbases. Though I am not 100% opposed to these ideas, I think there could be some tweaks to make it more workable. 

For starters, speed doesn't have to be the only difference between them. An increased weapons range will make the starbases effective over a larger area and therefore equivalent to a roaming starbase. Also, a starbase could be tethered to a certain spot and maybe roam only so far away from it. Increased ability range would have a similar affect for to the weapons point I made above.

So, (and I know I have a habit of not saying yes or no to your ideas, but more of a twist on your ideas) what I would do is if I wanted to address this problem is:

Advent SB- mobile, really slow (not very combat effective to move), greatly increased ability range, slightly increased weapons range. ability range now is such that you have half a gravwell of range. Weapons range and movement means you can cover round a 3rd, whereas the movement increases your ability range coverage to around 2/3rds.

TEC SB- Tethered, can be around half as fast as vasari because of tether, but whatever seems to work. Weapons range is greatly increased, should be able to cover half a gravwell. Mobility means effectively 1 starbase can shoot at anything in the grav well

If these ideas or yours cannot be implemented, reducing the weapons range on Vasari starbases could also bring things more in line I think. anti-module can be looked at after this if it gets messed up by it.

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June 1, 2012 10:53:26 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Rovert10,
Quoting sareth01, reply 86@ terriblenate


There you go guys someone who is thinking along the line of what makes each races base unique to begin with. Let’s follow this line of thinking instead of cheap fixes / making things worse.

All I can do is laugh at this point.  I really don't think nate or aseofspadez knows much about the game to begin with.  I'd enjoy stomping them both flat in a 2v1 situation.  Anytime boys, anytime (naturally after they fix minidumps/desyncs...and I may have found a possible source for that problem, going to test extensively tomorrow).

I think Nate wants to try his mind vs. my mind after all, hes been looking for a fight in a few threads.  I really hope you don't have much ego invested in your skills on sins nate, because I would really enjoy you sticking around to learn some more multiplayer strategy after I crush you the first 10-20 times.  Nothing personal, it just happens to the new guys.

Quit being so arrogant


When the majority of the actual "pro" community in this game doesn't agree with you than you see that it's a BAD idea.


You forget the purpose of defense in the game. It's to delay your enemies for your fleet to arrive then make a decisive victory and move on. It's only the Vasari Rebels that have redefined that role with an attack SB. Before that the Orky was made for delaying. The Orky even with it's super high DPS can't kill a large fleet fast enough even with a phase jump inhibitor if they decide to run or bypass.  

The TEC and Advent may not be able to protect the "entire well" but they have something the Orky doesn't which is AREA DENIAL. You can run past the Orky without too much trouble. Advent with it's disorient and meteor will put a huge dent into your fleet. The TEC Red Button now with a buff can kill your fleet outright if you're not careful. The current TEC SB can deny access to a gravity well just from fear that no matter where you jump you can lose your entire fleet. This is further enhanced with Twin Fortresses to even blockade the largest of wells. Your belief that Advent and TEC SBs are "subpar" is misplaced. They all have their uses while it may not conform to the high mobility of Vasari; they can stop Vasari in their tracks if used right.

You may not be able to kill a Orky or Titan with Red Button or meteor but you can make sure that you can kill the rest of the fleet making the single large units easy pickings.

Fact is that your idea is a too radical of a change to current gameplay. No major change like this is even required with the current Starbases.

Sure the presence of Titans makes a small change but it isn't drastic enough to require that every starbase should move.

 

Wow there was nothing arrogant about my post, the devs want unique races anything that lessens that will not be implemented by them and thus is a waste of breath so why bother?

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June 1, 2012 11:00:29 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@nate

Oh nate it was my arrogance he was referring to. 

@ sithlord

Your variations are quite good, they actually address the core lack of defensive capability that these immobile starbases provide.  I like how you take a more restrictive approach then I do on the TEC starbases. 

Yet your suggestions also do one thing, they are a lot more time intensive to implement (as far as I can tell anyways   ), and may not necessarily "fit" with the game.  Not that i'm against them, its just that the developers haven't made a "tethered" movement restriction on anything in the game (and it might feel a little restrictive for no real purpose).  I'm not denying that your suggestions, like mine, would definitely increase the fun factor of using Advent and TEC starbases. 

Reducing weapon range on a vasari starbase would take away from the fun a vasari player would enjoy, so I would be hesitant about recommending that for implementation(also, you should prepare yourself for a shitstorm of angry vasari player hate   ). 

I am a fan of simple fixes, with long explanations.

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