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Rebellion is a RIPOFF!

By on July 9, 2012 1:00:13 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

loggerhead_...

Join Date 09/2010
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I paid $40 for what I already had in Trinity plus a couple of new features? This is, at best, an expansion. To say I am unimpressed would be an understatement and I would demand a refund if possible. I have bought many Stardock titles in the past and have never encountered this.

If Stardock had not been honorable with Elemental, I would withdraw my business.

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July 9, 2012 1:04:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Umm it wasn't $40 what are you smoking.

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July 9, 2012 1:05:25 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Wait for it. Waaaaait for it...

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July 9, 2012 1:22:12 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

TerribleNate;

 

I purchased through Impulse, had to download through Steam, and received a receipt for $39.99 USD. 

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July 9, 2012 1:31:54 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well you fudged yourself buddy.

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July 9, 2012 1:39:20 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Speak for your self.  I happen to love this new add-on.  it has fixed so many issues that the older games had.  like the endless pauses after long games.  the lagging that occurred.  sorry, but I can not agree with you on your complaint. this game is definitely worth it and NOT a ripoff.  And had you pre bought it like many of us did you would have gotten the game for 29 dollars. 

I cant begin to express my aggravation at how many times in the past I have tried playing through a game with friends and we would end up quiting out of total frustration at games pausing for several mins at a time and longer.  With this new add-on, I have not once had a pause or a lagged out game.  and we have played at least 40 some games already that have lasted over 5 to 6 hours.  So again, your complaint is not valid.

 

btw, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

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July 9, 2012 1:43:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

dont even have to preorder it. Its still 30 bucks for previous owners.

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July 9, 2012 1:47:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Did you accidentally hit the BUY button?

Or did you look into what Rebellion contained, and make your decision accordingly ?

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July 9, 2012 2:09:46 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Any time anyone calls a game a ripoff, I simply refer them to movie theaters.  20 bucks for 2 hours of entertainment or 10 bucks an hour.  Games are generally 40-60 bucks and a game like Sins will be played for hundreds of hours, resulting in a cost of a few cents per hour of play.

That's a ripoff?  Really? 

And at one time at least (I never heard of it going away), returning customers could get it for 30 instead of 40.  Yeah, a bit expensive for an expansion, but consider that this is a small company with relatively unstable income.  Sins of a Solar Empire is the first game made by Ironclad and is the only one they've released.  They're not like EA where multiple games are being released throughout the year resulting in pretty sustained income.

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July 9, 2012 2:12:47 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I'm somewhat confused: 

This is, at best, an expansion.

Sins: Rebellion is a standalone expansion. That's all it was ever meant to be or marketed as...

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July 9, 2012 2:30:47 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I have to agree with the crowd here. Unless you're experiencing crashes preventing you from playing the game, what we got was pretty much as advertised when the game was first announced. The only thing (and I might be remembering this wrong) that we didn't get was linked scenarios.

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July 9, 2012 2:42:22 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well, triggers are sort of implemented in Galaxy Forge..  Maybe they'll be finished in the future...

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July 9, 2012 3:02:26 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Volt_Cruelerz;

 

Thanks for a polite response ... good argument too.  I have a couple of counterpoints:

1) Movies are much more expensive to produce ... consider the cost of a good developer vs the cost of a good actor. The actor will be 10X the cost. Distribution is more expensive too.

2) Movie theaters supply the entertainment infrastructure (the theater itself) which you 'rent' during the film. With games, you supply the entertainment infrastructure (your hardware) which you buy. This changes the costs a little. Now PC's have uses other than games, but my point stands.

3) There wasn't enough content in Rebellion to make for one interesting play-through! I have done it all before.

I agree that we need to support the smaller companies (that's where the true innovation is going to come from), but I see it as a mutual trust. I will pay for my games and will support the smaller player, but I expect a serious effort. This wasn't it ... they were just reselling the same game.

Yarlen;

You are correct, but a standalone expansion, to my experience, implies a lot of new content. This was more of a DLC ... and a really pricing one.

 

Darksxx;

I am glad that for an additional $29 you now have the functionality you should have received either initially or in a patch. 

 

 

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July 9, 2012 3:22:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I don't feel I was ripped off, the titans are very nice and with the split factions, we basically got 3 new races out of the deal, and really 6 new races on an ability standpoint, each having a unique approach to gameplay that should give you plenty of hours to toy around with and try to win a game using a completely different approach. For 40$ that's fine by me, but I pay typically 15$ monthly for most of my games so a 40$ one time payment is a non-issue for me. 

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July 9, 2012 3:37:42 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting loggerhead_shrike,
Volt_Cruelerz;

 

Thanks for a polite response ... good argument too.  I have a couple of counterpoints:

1) Movies are much more expensive to produce ... consider the cost of a good developer vs the cost of a good actor. The actor will be 10X the cost. Distribution is more expensive too.

2) Movie theaters supply the entertainment infrastructure (the theater itself) which you 'rent' during the film. With games, you supply the entertainment infrastructure (your hardware) which you buy. This changes the costs a little. Now PC's have uses other than games, but my point stands.

3) There wasn't enough content in Rebellion to make for one interesting play-through! I have done it all before.

I agree that we need to support the smaller companies (that's where the true innovation is going to come from), but I see it as a mutual trust. I will pay for my games and will support the smaller player, but I expect a serious effort. This wasn't it ... they were just reselling the same game.

Yarlen;

You are correct, but a standalone expansion, to my experience, implies a lot of new content. This was more of a DLC ... and a really pricing one.

 

Darksxx;

I am glad that for an additional $29 you now have the functionality you should have received either initially or in a patch. 

 

 

 

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that what somethng is "worth" is primarily dependant o ncosts of production.  yes- the price needs to be such that the production is profitable, but frankly that's not the primary determinant of "worth".  Something is worth precisely what people are willing to pay for it.  if it's bringing in good revenue, it's been priced properly- note this doesn't mean more expensive is a "better pricing" as frankly it's a fundamental economic constant that price is inversely proportional to number of copies sold.  Consequently there generally exists some maximal "correct" price where either increasing or decreasing the price will result in a loss of revenue.

The point is when it comes down to it Volt's argument is very valid.  The "value" of something has far more to do with what people are willing to pay then witht he costs of production.  And what people are willing to pay derives from their perception of the utility and usefulness of the product, which frankly often comes down to how much entertainment and the quality of entertainment derived from said product as compared to spending the same amount of money on a different product- in this case seeing a movie.

 

Consequently I'm a strong believer in the movie comparison(which I have used oftene nough myself).  I'm also a strong believer in "sins rebellion costs the same as 3-4 burritos" argument which is made in the same vein.

 

 

All that said if you had previous versions of sins you really should have gotten the $10 discount and payed $30 instead of $40.

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July 9, 2012 4:02:10 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting loggerhead_shrike,

 

Darksxx;

I am glad that for an additional $29 you now have the functionality you should have received either initially or in a patch. 

 

 

 

First off, I was only referring to the games stability and wasn't referring to the newer added content that I happen to be enjoying very much.  The new Titans and cap ships along with a few other added abilities per race are all worth it to me and I don't in any way feel that I was ripped off.

Again, I knew exactly what I was getting when I bought this game. and I again will say this.  I am very happy with the game.  Yes it could have used a few more added units.  Specifically I felt that each race should have a new cap ship per alliance and not a rehashed one.  But thats the only shortfall I have with this game.  

As someone else pointed out.  You could do far worst with your money watching a movie and only having a memory for 2 hours or buying a game that can give you many lasting memories hours upon hours.  That to me is a far better deal then watching any movie.

 

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July 9, 2012 4:16:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Bilun already explained my prior argument regarding the comparison, so I won't touch on that.

 

Regarding the quantity/quality of the new content, I would say that it is more quality oriented than quantity (ignore balance for a minute).  Quality here refers to the amount of a change and how much expansion upon the previous version  (Trinity) that change actually affects gameplay.  Titans and corvettes drastically change fleet compositions.  LRF spams are generally gone now (though I did have an enemy the other day that positively refused to build any Corvettes, so I LRF spammed him to death very very easily).  Titans shift late-game play from frigate spam to more capital heavy fleets.  The new research available to each faction and the new capitals all drastically change gameplay.  

For instance, if your enemy AR has a terran world, you don't want to stick your fleet adjacent to it or risk getting wailed.  STTC can change the field of play permanently.  Twin Fortresses makes it impossible to get past defenses.  TAR means you never have to worry about pirates or militia again.  Starbase Mobilization turns Orkies into pseudo-titans.  Global Unity means the AL will never have to build another culture center and their other in-culture buffs makes them nigh-unkillable in their own culture.

Just because the number of changes is relatively small doesn't mean that each one doesn't drastically change gameplay.

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July 9, 2012 4:50:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,
Just because the number of changes is relatively small doesn't mean that each one doesn't drastically change gameplay.

hmm... I think people loose perspective here somewhat. Just on the surface:

Entrenchment $10 - Adds Star Bases (x3), Mines, Vasari Mine Layer, Turret&Hangar Upgrades

Diplomacy $10 - Adds Envoys and Pacts (x3)

 

Rebellion $30 - Adds Titans (x6), Capital Ships (x3), Corvettes (x3), Vasari Nanite Swarms, New Research (which unlocks new strategies), New "actual" Victory Conditions, Shadows.

Thats 36 abilities on the new Titans and Capital Ships compared to 12 with Entrenchment. These of course include new particle effects and sounds.

It's well over 40+ abilities when you count Corvettes and station improvements. 

The new Research is far and above anything Entrenchment or Diplomacy added. A surface look won't reveal the complex nuances added by the designers. 

Then you get to the subtle differences...

While the optimizations are expected with each release, the graphics improvements and shadows is a new feature and really adds to the game.

Updated particle effects for all 3 races from phase jumping to weapons, etc!

New UI HUDS for Advent and Vasari increasing your immersion into the gameplay!

This expansion unlike the previous two added far more unit sounds and effects.

New significant modding potential.

Probably some other stuff, but no point in going on.

 

In short Rebellion is well worth $30 content wise compared to the previous expansions you seem to feel where worth $10 each.

 

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July 9, 2012 5:07:32 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

logger, I'm not satisfied with rebellion, but I have imagination in greater quantity than coding skill.  What is in rebellion is a massive upgrade over trinity.  Most people don't really understand the time Stardock put into this.

 

See, I'm not a total dick.

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July 9, 2012 5:21:22 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting SemazRalan,
logger, I'm not satisfied with rebellion, but I have imagination in greater quantity than coding skill.  What is in rebellion is a massive upgrade over trinity.  Most people don't really understand the time Stardock put into this.

 

See, I'm not a total dick.

true, there any many features I "wanted" included and frankly still do. I just don't think that qualifies rebellion as a fail because my own personal desires weren't satisfied. I still hope for ladders, map sharing, steam workshop (leave moddb), triggers, etc...

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July 9, 2012 7:20:52 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I have to respect the opinions represented here in support of the release. I think that your perspective is based on very detailed strategy gaming. I don't play a game that intensely.

Myself, I play the heck out of a game for a while and then loose interest ... then I want to see something truly original. For the price of this release I could have purchased a competing product. Unfortunately, I suffer from brand loyalty.

To use the movie analogy in a different way, some people derive great value from refinements to movies. Star Wars [1977] (now called 'A New Hope') has received multiple face lifts over the years and people are willing to pay full price to see it again with some CGI overlays, color enrichment, and perhaps a few new scenes that I would have preferred stayed on the cutting room floor. Who am I to judge? To me, I loved the original movie but one time and once only. I would only get value with a new storyline.

Oh well. with Derek's proposed enhancements to the design, Fallen Enchantress may be a hit.

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July 9, 2012 7:57:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yeah...

 

You shouldn't be buying sequels and expansions if you've already "lost interest" in the product being altered.

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July 9, 2012 7:59:10 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I understand what logger is saying, Zombie in an earlier post you compared what was released in the mini expos and what was released in but you didn't include alot of things to make it seem like rebellion had alot more than the others(It did but really not much). While its cool that rebellion was released not much was actually changed about the game :/

 

I wasn't impressed with rebellion much either mainly due to alot of content that could of been in the game but wasn't. Its not a bad release, but to be honest I was a little disappointed. But I wouldn't not recommend buying it.

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July 9, 2012 8:41:58 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'll be honest, I bought Rebellion for modding 7 Deadly Sins into it.  Playing 7DS 2.5 RC3 and seeing what we've done in Entrenchment only makes me want to see what can be done in Rebellion. All modders want is a nice, stable working base so they can mod the **** out of the game.

I'm not too concerned that the balance is out of wack.  Not everyone, like me, creates massive 15 tab excel spreadsheets with thousands of details in just to take original armor, hull, shields and antimatter values and screw with them to get new credit, metal, crystal, fleet cost, mass, fluff crew levels, experience for killing and speed.  Nor do they then take those new fleet cost values and after working out every vessels' total DPS, divide max dps by fleet cost and then tweak things just right. 

It's not for everyone and a bit maddening, so I understand if IronClad didn't have such a complex system.  Even winging it they did an okay job.  Pictures from the spreadsheet (70% zoom).

FrigateStatBalance
CapitalStatBalance
CapitalDPSBalance

Mayal, be careful, Zombie probably has a 500 pager lying around that compares and contrast Trinity and Rebellion in mind exploding detail.

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July 9, 2012 8:45:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting MayallCommunion,
I understand what logger is saying, Zombie in an earlier post you compared what was released in the mini expos and what was released in but you didn't include alot of things to make it seem like rebellion had alot more than the others(It did but really not much). While its cool that rebellion was released not much was actually changed about the game :/

Either your being lazy or your just not real sure on your opinion. I've given concrete examples about all the expansions and what was added on the surface. This is a pretty lame rebuttal, you can do better.

Quoting MayallCommunion,
I wasn't impressed with rebellion much either mainly due to alot of content that could of been in the game but wasn't.

Gamers are obviously smarter than actual game designers.

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July 9, 2012 9:19:25 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ZombiesRus5,
Gamers are obviously entitled.

 

 

 

Fixed it for you.

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