Sins of a Solar Empire : Real-Time Strategy. Unrivalled Scale.
© 2003-2013 Ironclad Games Corporation Vancouver, BC. All rights reserved.
© 2006-2013 Stardock Entertainment

What does the Revelation need to truly terrify her enemies?

By on July 10, 2012 8:18:34 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

stein220

Join Date 12/2008
+11

The Revelation is another capital ship that doesn't get enough good press.  

I guess the main complaint is with Guidance, and i've seen mods give Clairvoyance a secondary effect.  I like Volt's idea of increasing your own culture at a planet like the DE b/c the manual says the Revelation's power "occasionally finds benign use".

I haven't seen complaints about Reverie and I actually like the utlimate, Provoke Hysteria, which is the main reason to get the Revelation in my opinion.

118 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 15, 2012 10:19:01 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Mecha-Lenin,
No, it makes attacking far away enemy planets annoying. Caps need to repel culture.

Hell, without caps some planets would be impossible to ever counter culture due to Advent SBs or uncolonizables...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 15, 2012 11:36:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,

Quoting Mecha-Lenin, reply 76No, it makes attacking far away enemy planets annoying. Caps need to repel culture.

Hell, without caps some planets would be impossible to ever counter culture due to Advent SBs or uncolonizables...

Yeah but wouldn't it be places without logistical slots? I was thinking of how the vanilla sins presented culture, it was supposed to be more deadly then it was. Right now having the "stronger culture" doesn't accomplish anything offensively, other then the secondary effects they provide.

As for attacking far flung places....they are far flung places they are supposed to be hard to attack. You can still go in a wipe everything, and leave (particularly if Vasari) without colonizing. Or you could "hunt down" the hostile culture center.

I'm surprised you guys think it is hard to counter an Advent SB with nodes. Playing against AI, I've maxed out nodes on forward SBs but the AI was always able to counter with his culture (all the caps he had was one low level since I continually blew them up). On the other hand, going against player Advent SB nodes I've never had a problem countering with far less logistical slots then it should have cost (5 nodes + SB nodes against 3 of my nodes -- kinda rough since we blew each others up occasionally).

Can you explain a little more?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 16, 2012 12:24:03 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Culture is extremely hard to overrun...1 culture center on a planet can hold off something like 5 nearby ones (dont' remember the exact number)...also, capital ships, SBs, and titans are twice as good at repelling culture on friendly worlds as they are on neutral, and you cannot repel culture while on an enemy world...

So, that explains why it is extremely easy to repel large amounts of culture...but this is an entirely different situation, you are talking about a neutral gravity well with no culture...what if your nearest planet is 2 jumps away because of uncolonizable gravity wells but their nearest is 1 jump away?  Unless the enemy is dumb and doesn't have any culture there, they aren't going to have any problem denying you access to the recently bombed planet with their culture...

Without the ability to repel culture with capital ships, games would take forever and some fronts would just be stalemates indefinitely...it's already hard enough to push through an entrenched line because of things like Wail, RB, and phase stabilizers (not to mention the culture bonuses the defender gets), your suggestion would just make it unnecessarily more difficult...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 16, 2012 1:52:26 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
Culture is extremely hard to overrun...1 culture center on a planet can hold off something like 5 nearby ones (dont' remember the exact number)...also, capital ships, SBs, and titans are twice as good at repelling culture on friendly worlds as they are on neutral, and you cannot repel culture while on an enemy world...

So, that explains why it is extremely easy to repel large amounts of culture...but this is an entirely different situation, you are talking about a neutral gravity well with no culture...what if your nearest planet is 2 jumps away because of uncolonizable gravity wells but their nearest is 1 jump away?  Unless the enemy is dumb and doesn't have any culture there, they aren't going to have any problem denying you access to the recently bombed planet with their culture...

Without the ability to repel culture with capital ships, games would take forever and some fronts would just be stalemates indefinitely...it's already hard enough to push through an entrenched line because of things like Wail, RB, and phase stabilizers (not to mention the culture bonuses the defender gets), your suggestion would just make it unnecessarily more difficult...

 

Honestly while I'm not sure I agree with Coronal's proposition, but using this sort of thinking I doubt culture will ever be made into a competitive option.  Frankly for it to be strong it needs to be possible to have a strong enough culture push that the opponent's only option is to start huntign and destroying broadcast centers in nearby gravity wells.

 

As long as the enemy can easily rebuff enemy culture with 1-2 broadcast centers or always ensure they can colonize planets they destroy with the presence of a few capitalships, culture won't really serve much of a purpose.  Frankly culture will never be very useful if it can't even force the opponent to engage in a less then desirable course of action.

 

The problem with culture at present is that defending against it doesn't require any real sacrifice.  Defending against culture pushes costs less then the aggressor spends on the culture push.  Due to capitalship culture repel defensive culture can't even keep an attackigng fleet from colonizing.  The enemy should have to pay a cost to overcome the culture- whether this cost is in resources or in wasted time spent marauding enemy worlds destroying broadcast centers rather then colonizing newly conquered worlds immediately- at present this cost isn't really present as the counters to culture are more easily and cheaply available then culture it's self.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 16, 2012 2:16:44 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting bilun,
using this sort of thinking I doubt culture will ever be made into a competitive option.

Allowing allegiance rates to increase/fall at twice the rate would be a start...that way, when you do manage to overrun culture, the enemy is forced to act quickly rather than build more culture centers "whenever they get around to it"...

Culture isn't useless...sometimes when frontliners or suicide spots lose some planets, they can be caught without the three labs needed to build TEC or Vasari culture centers, and then the best way to really hurt them and wipe their planets is via culture (as opposed to trying to fight their entrenched fleet)...of course, it is a painfully slow process and if the frontliner knows help will be on the way soon, they basically can just ignore the culture completely...

Again, doubling the rate that allegiance can change forces the players hand more...it doesn't necessarily make it easier to overrun someone with culture, but it at least makes such efforts useful when they do succeed....

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 16, 2012 12:07:32 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well I did say the ability for V would not be removed, (the research, I think it is called "shock and awe"?) would give some culture push for the Vasari. VL definitely need it since they are mobile.

 

As for not being able to cultural defend certain places, sure it is true. SBs are still an option, and the only place that can't have culture centers are dead asteroids (even these can with TEC development mandate). For those few instances where it is truly, truly unavoidable, sweet! Advent especially were supposed to have a cultural advantage, and making it more threatening is awesome. Even while losing you can still def the place up, since culture takes a long time to act. And you would have time to potentially take out some culture nodes, and now they are in fact a target instead of always being the last thing you worry about.

Additionally this would force other players to attack more often, make the game less static.

For a deep hit, all that is usually needed is attacking 2 planets instead of one. As soon as one planet is colonizable, plop a media port down. Normally, deep behind enemy lines means they won't be using lots of culture beyond just providing 10% boost. If they do have something insane like 8, that hurts 8 other factory/labs etc. and is probably a counter to VL SttC.

Advent are strongest with culture.

Vasari can raid places with culture with phase nodes.

TEC can use scouts with timed charges or other raids to take out high value nodes.

 

I just keep thinking how worthless culture is 95% of the time other then to provide the 10% allegiance. Although instead of destroying Caps ability to repulse culture, you could argue to just nerf it considerably. Or something else entirely this is just an idea.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 16, 2012 12:32:48 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Maybe buff offensive culture and give culture centers the ability to repel it at a financial cost?  That way, the defender has an option, but the offensive player is at least creating a money sink.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 16, 2012 1:12:20 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Tohron,
Maybe buff offensive culture and give culture centers the ability to repel it at a financial cost?  That way, the defender has an option, but the offensive player is at least creating a money sink.

 

Overly complicated I think. Forcing the player to give up a factory/lab/trade port to put up another culture is better if possible.

Off topic from the Revelation now, although changes to one thing brings changes to others.....

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 16, 2012 2:13:10 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Will take some work to go through all the non-ultimate abilities, but it's kinda cool and will be in my mod. Amplified Energy Aura is an additive buff making it easier to remove the bonus when out of range of Guidance but still in range of the Aura.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 17, 2012 9:19:41 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

How's the progress coming on it Zombie?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 17, 2012 9:54:57 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I suggest you put an easter egg in there...if the player uses guidance on a seeker which then uses martyrdom on a trade ship, all planets are destroyed....

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 18, 2012 3:00:20 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I've been thinking a bit more on this issue and something occurred to me:  Reverie has certainly become less useful late game in rebellion then it would have been in diplomacy.  In diplomacy it could lock down the biggest fish in the pond(capitalships), which is nolonger the case(titans are immune to disables).

 

Moreover there is A LOT more AoE flying around now the least of which is the advent titans attacking 4-3-3-4 enemies with their fore-side-side-back banks.  That's potentially 14 enemies, only one of which you choose.  These circumstances makes keeping enemies locked down in reverie much more difficult and often a matter of luck.  Not to mention reverie has always had problems in late game fleet battles as if enemy focus-fire forces the Revelation to retreat out of range, all reveries end prematurely.

 

Which leads me to believe we may be thinking in the wrong direction.    Rather then try to make the Revelation a strong late game combat frigate(which is an uphill battle) as many ideas involving a rework of Guidance have attempted, I suspect a better choice may be to focus on buffing the Revelation's early game combat presence.

 

It's level 6 ability alone would give it a reasonable transition into a siege-ship late game, but making it strong in the early game when fleets are small(perhaps even as a start ship) would be a great way to round the Revelation out, playing to the strengths it already has and giving it more of a purpose.

 

 

Now this is all very abstract, the question then becomes how could this be accomplished?  Guidance seems to be the obvious candidate, and that said what generally makes ships strong in the early game is one thing: Raw firepower added.  Note the word "added".  Most fleetwide buffs are fairly small and pander more to the late game as a result.  More often abilities that create ships, or give large buffs or debuffs on a small scale tend to add more raw firepower to a small fleet.

Traditionally this is the reason carriers have a long history of being used as early game capitalships- their complement of strikecraft mean they have more raw firepower then other capitalships.  Not to mention all 3 carriers have an ability which adds firepower independent of fleet size(Missile Batteries, Expert Drone Anima, & Scramble Bombers).

 

Of course there are a number of ways to go about reworking Guidance to give the Revelation more of an early game combat presence.  The first that popped into my head which would accomplish this while making thematic sense for the name "guidance" was:

 

Guidance:  Target single Allied Frigate or Squadron of Strikecraft Deals 80/120/160/200% increase damage, has it's abilities cooldown 100% faster, and gains +4/6/8/10 armor for 30 seconds

Cooldown: 35 seconds

AM cost: 50/55/60/65

Note: the numbers looks big, but keep in mind this ability would be unable to target capitalships, titans, or starbases.  it supercharges one of the little guys, that's all.

 

[comments:  This ability would allow a single allied frigate or strikecraft squadron to do it's job substantially better, whatever that job may be, with added survivability.  Not hugely significant late game, but very potent and flexible early game when fleets are small.  Numbers of course may not be right, but view this more as a proof of concept.]

 

As I said previously there are a ton of other ways guidance could be reworked to accomplish this goal- this one was simply the first that popped into my head.


Also, Volt's implementation of Clairvoyance from his mod would be another tremendous contribution towards focusing on buffing the Revelation's early game, as getting deployable free culture centers would be most potent early when the enemy hasn't had time to build much culture.

 

All that said, specific ideas aside what do you guys think?  I'm really startign to believe the key to making the revelation viable is to focus on early game buffs.  If it had a strong early military presence that transitioned into a siege ship late game I suspect it would get used a lot more.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 18, 2012 7:17:02 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Very interesting ideas and I think you may well be on the right track.

Reverie: I did once try changing this to allow you to target friendly ships.  Doing so would drastically increase their passive regen.  That said, I ultimately decided against it because Reverie is already quite powerful.  You make a good point about it though..  Maybe if you hit a titan/starbase you could disable a bank target?  We'd need a new entityModifier for each weapon bank, but that's not something I'd complain about. 

Guidance: Interesting idea..  I don't think this would do a whole lot though, but maybe that's just me.

Clairvoyance: That was in fact one of the primary reasons for doing that.  Being able to spawn culture in a battle is extremely handy.  For balance reasons, I made the culture come at level 2 of Clairvoyance because that gives the defender some time to react.  Being able to spawn culture straight out of the gate could end up being extremely painful to the point of being OP. After all, Culture-bombing lets you rush the enemy worlds without physically being there.  Late-game, it simply provides a boost along with the DE towards getting your culture in a gravity well you're attacking.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 18, 2012 10:25:48 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I remembered my one battle against a cruel AI in Diplomacy. I was TEC, my main fleet consisted of 7 Capital Ships and mixed TEC auxiliary fleets. The AI has at least 8 Capital Ships there.

At the battle my Capital ship fleets were heavily handicapped by the two Lv6 Revelation. At most time of the battle I always have at least 3 Capital Ships sleeping there.

What makes the thing worse, was that the AI sent about 20 Disciple Vessels first and lately about another 30. The antimatters of my 3 Dunovs were all empty, and all I could do was no more than watching my sleeping beauties die.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 18, 2012 10:37:08 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,
What makes the thing worse, was that the AI sent about 20 Disciple Vessels first and lately about another 30. The antimatters of my 3 Dunovs were all empty, and all I could do was no more than watching my sleeping beauties die.

Works good... I decided to make it passive even though I said I didn't want too (I didn't like micro'ing the effect). I gave it a small level'd buff to decrease anti-matter of abilities to make the levels worthwhile. Works good with both active and passive abilities. Just need to followup with the frigate abilities and makes the Revelation a bit more interesting.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 18, 2012 10:39:55 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting bilun,
I've been thinking a bit more on this issue and something occurred to me: Reverie has certainly become less useful late game in rebellion then it would have been in diplomacy. In diplomacy it could lock down the biggest fish in the pond(capitalships), which is nolonger the case(titans are immune to disables).

Maybe lockdown abilities should affect star bases now

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 18, 2012 5:52:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Bilun, I have to say, your idea for Guidance is really growing on me.  I didn't like it at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I liked it.

Regarding Reverie, I suppose you could always make it do something against titans.  Maybe increase weapon cooldowns on them by 30% or so for the increasing duration?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 18, 2012 8:23:05 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting bilun,

 

Guidance:  Target single Allied Frigate or Squadron of Strikecraft Deals 80/120/160/200% increase damage, has it's abilities cooldown 100% faster, and gains +4/6/8/10 armor for 30 seconds

 
 

I'm assuming this would include planet bombing damage of purge vessels? I only ask because that would also help with the Revelation's early game bombing.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 18, 2012 8:28:49 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I would say so.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 18, 2012 8:30:14 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

At least one of the non-ultimate abilities on the Revelation needs to directly help with planet bombing...no matter how useful an individual abilities is, if none of them help with bombing then the Revelation will still be fundamentally flawed...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 18, 2012 8:31:12 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well, the ability to effectively turn one Purge Vessel into three would be quite useful...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 19, 2012 2:57:55 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting stein220,


I'm assuming this would include planet bombing damage of purge vessels? I only ask because that would also help with the Revelation's early game bombing.

Definitely, while my idea should not add quite as much raw firepower as Scramble Bombers or Sova Missile Batteries, it's strength would be in versatility.  it could be used to speed siege by boosting Purge Vessels, Structure detrsuction by buffing bombers or Adjucators, or aid in fighting a specific type of frigate by boosting a frigate that deals whichever type of damage suites the moment best.

 

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,
Bilun, I have to say, your idea for Guidance is really growing on me.  I didn't like it at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I liked it.

Regarding Reverie, I suppose you could always make it do something against titans.  Maybe increase weapon cooldowns on them by 30% or so for the increasing duration?

 

Glad to hear it's growing on you, while the numbers may not be perfect, I think the rough model of the ability has some good potential to create a unique and useful ability. 

 

And while I certainly think the key to bringing the revelation up to snuff lies in buffing it's early game, improving it's late game a bit by adding an alternate effect against titans to reverie certainly wouldn't hurt.  Increased weapon cooldowns  would definitely be a simple and elegant solution. Makes sense as well- can't put the titan entirely to sleep, but you could make them a bit drowsy while you focus on killing their allies then the titan it's self. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 19, 2012 7:51:00 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Kinda funny, with the Overcharge Idea, since you end up making Clones of every ability your going to buff you can with the same effort make Entire new ability's!

 

I made a silly mod just for kicks...  if the Radiance has guidance its Detonate Antimatter Spawns 10 Corvettes for 120 seconds... its BeamBlast Converts all targets in the beam to your side, and Aoe taunt kills all ships in the well

 

You could give a ship 6 ability's with 3 normal ability's, Overcharge and then 3x Overcharged abilitys.

 

so You can have the Revelation keep its stock ability's then at level 6 it gains 3 new ones, would need alot more Micro to manage in combat but lets you have Earlygame and Lategame abilitys. (this is using Guidance as an Ultimate and moving PlanetMania to a 0,2,4,6)

you can even have Guidance/Overcharge Effect its self, perhaps turning it into a buff aura for 120 seconds.

 

Adding a 30% debuff to BlackOut (reverie) seems to fail to land on titans atm, possibly something to do with them being immune to all but Ultimate Disables.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 19, 2012 8:13:25 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting bilun,
Guidance: Target single Allied Frigate or Squadron of Strikecraft Deals 80/120/160/200% increase damage, has it's abilities cooldown 100% faster, and gains +4/6/8/10 armor for 30 seconds

Cooldown: 35 seconds

AM cost: 50/55/60/65

Note: the numbers looks big, but keep in mind this ability would be unable to target capitalships, titans, or starbases. it supercharges one of the little guys, that's all.

Looks good. However, as the Revelation gains levels, the game progresses until this ability is not all that useful so increasing AM cost per level sounds unnecessary. If any thing, AM cost should decrease per level.

 

Reverie probably should not increase ability cool downs on enemy Titans and SBs because debuffing Titans is what the Discord's Lethargy ability is for, same with Detonate AM.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 19, 2012 8:51:37 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm I alone in thinking that buffing only a single frigate is rather...idk, lame...for a capital ship ability?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108436  walnut3   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000500   Page Render Time: