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Dear Devs, illuminators should not be so awesome against Corvettes

By on July 28, 2012 10:52:11 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008
+238

Damage table for Anti-Medium weapons (AKA as LRFs):

Medium Armor 1.3333333

Very Light Armor 1.000000

That's right, LRFs are almost as good against corvettes as they are against light frigates...of course, this is easily overlooked since LRFs suck at turning and shooting the damn things....unless you are an ILLUMINATOR, in which case the sillly fighter behavior of corvettes doesn't matter...so what ends up happening is that massed illuminators practically become immune to corvettes....

Did some tests to confirm this:

40 illuminators vs. 80 TEC corvettes

Corvettes win, but with ridiculous losses (only about 25-30 survive)

50 illuminators vs. 100 TEC corvettes

Corvettes win with same ridiculous losses (only about 40 survive)

To put this into perspective:

75 LRMs vs. 100 TEC Corvettes

Corvettes win with hardly any losses (about 70 survive)

So.......

Once you start getting into the 30s or so with illuminators, corvettes essentially become a non issue...corvettes barely beat out the illuminators without defense vessels being involved, add those and nothing short of HCs or a powerful AoE can stop an Advent fleet...this is why AL and their coronata is so powerful, because you combine the best fleet with the best support ability (suppression) and 2nd best FFing ability (Unity Mass)...

This is an issue specifically with the illuminator, but how does one make the illuminator weaker against corvettes without removing the side weapons?  I propose that the damage table be changed such that Anti-medium weapons no longer fair so well very light armor...maybe a value or .80 or .75 would be more appropriate...sure the illuminator will always have an advantage over the other LRFs when going against corvettes, but the LRM and kanrak make up for it with better focus fire...the current situation though is just ridiculous, there is no counter whatsoever against illuminators other than HCs, and that simply is not acceptable...

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July 28, 2012 11:03:32 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Wow, you should probably make a thread about this. Then they'll be sure to do something about it.

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July 28, 2012 2:35:05 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

So Illuminators are finally useful again and you want to nerf them?

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July 28, 2012 2:41:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

there is no counter whatsoever against illuminators other than HCs

Carriers/strikecraft

Illums also take an extra lab to build, cost 30% more than TEC LRMs, can't focus fire, and don't use phase missiles that can bypass shields.

In other words, each LRM has pros and cons - by the time 50 illuminators are out, are you really still using a fighting force of 100 corvettes to attack them?

It's good to bring up but too early to call for the nerfbat before taking more into account.

What wins for cost in a fight between TEC LRMs and Illums? How does the battle turn out if it's Vasari corvettes vs. Illums in your above examples (more health, shields, damage)? Is it just a TEC corvette problem?

In a real game you are going to have 100 corvettes well before 50 illuminators come out - so unless he is hiding 50 illums on you it's sort of a moot point in my mind. 50 illuminators is like a mid game sort of force where corvettes have lost a lot of their usefulness anyway - as long as a mix of fighters and LRMs can deal with them, that seems like a more useful counter for more things anyway.

 

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July 28, 2012 3:05:59 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ekko_Tek,
Illums also take an extra lab to build, cost 30% more than TEC LRMs, can't focus fire, and don't use phase missiles that can bypass shields.

In other words, each LRM has pros and cons - by the time 50 illuminators are out, are you really still using a fighting force of 100 corvettes to attack them?

Illums are always going to do better against Corvettes because of their directional fire. However, no other unit in the game does as much damage to its counter as LRF does to Corvettes. This is almost certainly a result of Corvettes using VeryLight armor, and before Rebellion, only fighters used that. Since LRF cannot fire of fighters, this matchup never came up and they forgot about it.

I believe a 25-50% decrease in antimedium to verylight is justified. Illums will still be better off, but Corvettes will take fewer losses from the engagement, forcing even Advent players to protect them with some flak, though they can get away with far fewer than Vasari or TEC.

Also all else being equal, we should not encourage players to use strikecraft. Bombers are already way to overused, and fighters actually lag the game more than anything else. If we can make a nonstrikecraft counter better without hurting anything else I think we should.

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July 28, 2012 3:23:58 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ekko_Tek,
Carriers/strikecraft

Carriers are a lot harder to get that early than illuminators are...it's not just about labs, it's about instant firepower (which carriers don't give) and construction times...illuminators also have instant mobility, while carriers are useless if you start jumping them immediately after they are built...fighters also are extremely easy to counter with flak, and you can bet any Advent player worth a damn is fielding both illuminators and defense vessels if they see you trying to amass carriers...

Quoting Ekko_Tek,
What wins for cost in a fight between TEC LRMs and Illums?

75 LRMs vs. 50 Illuminators

LRMs win with heavy losses (~22 survivors, or 29.3%, even worse than the corvettes though that's hardly surprising)...

Quoting Ekko_Tek,
How does the battle turn out if it's Vasari corvettes vs. Illums in your above examples (more health, shields, damage)?

75 Vasari Corvettes vs. 50 Illuminators

Illuminators win with varying degrees of success, hardly surprising considering how awful Vasari ships generally are....

You can't counter Illuminators with flak, and a small portion of defense vessels will completely negate the threat of corvettes....trying to outdo the illuminators by simply building your own LRFs really isn't going to work too well either unless you have more ships or much better AoEs...as stated earlier, fighters again aren't really going to be too useful because they are hard countered by flak and aren't viable that early anyway...

Doesn't matter whether you are TEC or Vasari, you can't counter illuminators...sure, you can beat them if you have more ships, better AoEs, or are pushing the Advent player back and winning huge over them before they get the chance to amass illuminators...but once the illuminators are amassed you only have 2 options: build HCs, or simply try to be bigger and badder....

The first option is hardly viable that early, especially when you consider the construction times for HCs...the 2nd option isn't really an option and certainly isn't a counter...

Another Test:

75 LRMs vs. 75 Vasari Corvettes

Corvettes win (~44 survivors, or 59%, which is much better than any corvette against the illuminators)

Since LRMs are generally considered the best LRF, and Vasari corvettes are generally considered the worst, I would argue that the survival rate would be even higher should you substitute in kanraks or TEC corvettes...

Bottomline:

  1. LRMs and kanraks get shredded by corvettes of any type, but illuminators don't, and in some cases can even beat corvettes...
  2. In general, corvettes do not counter LRFs as well as they probably should...most hard counters yield surival rates around 70%-90% for the counter unit, but barring illuminators, corvettes are looking at the 50%-70% region...
  3. There is no viable counter against illuminators that early in the game, and Advent already have best LF and best flak (not sure about corvette, but it certainly isn't the worst)...

I would argue this is a problem with corvettes in general, but it is most apparent when you throw them against illluminators...I believe the core of the issue is that LRFs and their anti-medium weaponry perform too well against very light armor...I am unsure of the exact value to put here, but a reduction from 1.00 to .90 or .80 would be a much needed improvement...even going as low as .75 may be necessary, I don't know at this point....

Because of their higher tier and lack of FFing ability, I'm fine with illuminators being better against corvettes than the other LRFs...but this is just wrong, illuminators should not be doing this well against a unit that allegedley counters them....

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July 28, 2012 3:37:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

THIS is the rebellion balance issue! Thank god, I thought there were other more pressing issues.

Maybe next you can help build the ABACUS.

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July 28, 2012 4:02:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ZombiesRus5,
THIS is the rebellion balance issue! Thank god, I thought there were other more pressing issues.
Maybe next you can help build the ABACUS.

Would you rather me complain about jumping SBs, or SttC, or AL having no cool toys, or useless caps like the kol?  Or maybe I could try to tell them that titans are still ridiculous and that they should seriously reconsider their entire philosophy behind this expansion...

Oops, wait, all those things have already been beaten to a bloody pulp that legend says was once a horse...

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July 28, 2012 4:25:29 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I get that strikecraft themselves could then easily be countered by flak with illums but from your answer it seems obvious that if an Advent player is massing illuminators you can simply build your own LRMs and beat him easily for cost. Your test result showed that 53 TEC LRM was equal to the task of 50 Illums, which cost way more and won't get massed like that until later than the LRMs, which means you need to be building something else than illuminators in the meantime - this is the most important part - how are you going to get to that critical mass of illuminators unchallenged? I've never seen this scenario you're describing (illuminators uber alles) in a real game - do you have a good one to share to back up this being a real balance concern? More importantly, ARE ILLUMINATORS THE KEY TO ADVENT LOYALISTS BEING COMPETITIVE?! Needs more research...

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July 28, 2012 6:33:13 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

so what ends up happening is that massed illuminators practically become immune to corvettes....
Corvettes win, but with ridiculous losses (only about 25-30 survive)

Corvettes win with same ridiculous losses (only about 40 survive)

 

Your definition of immune is quite strange.

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July 28, 2012 6:42:46 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Lol, either way.. illums are unique by design they dont do anymore damage.. just over bigger arcs, reducing the need to turn to fire. SO perhaps you should stop building corvettes... so many atleast.

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July 28, 2012 7:26:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I really dont think that nerfing UNDERUSED ship's dmg against an OVERUSED ship type (any game today starts with packs of corvettes flying around) is such a good idea,or that it should be a concern at all.

 

Illums are decent against corvettes on their own,and even better with flak support?fine.deal with it.

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July 28, 2012 9:17:56 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

there are multiple issues, this is but a grain of sand in the underwear of the game, but there is a damn lotta sand!

just another reason for corvettes to have their own armor type to throw into the damagepercentbonus section -maybe even their own weapon type.

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July 28, 2012 9:21:54 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Wait..starbases can jump!?



(Sorry--I couldn't help it.)

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July 28, 2012 9:48:57 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

While I understand what you are saying I think we can exempt Illums for a few reasons.

1. It will make not all the LRF's useless and add diversity to the game.
2. They are still not cost effective against corvettes.
3. Advent get them at tier 3 therefore they are still to late to actually have any impact against corvettes yours is just theory craft but by the time you have 100 corvettes there is no way the advent will have 50 illums.

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July 28, 2012 10:15:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Either that, or this is the best troll post ever.

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July 28, 2012 10:25:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

This is odd... Unlike "Projectile" or "Beam" weapon effect types, "Missile" weapon effect types can shoot at anything in range because the missiles simply curve around.  Missile weapons are basically omnidirectional; better than three directional beams.

I'd thought that Missiles seemed to have wider firing arcs previously but I definitely confirmed it when I replaced the lasers on the Progenitor today with Psionic Surge guns which are of type "Missile."  Side weapons are fully capable of targeting the front and vice-versa.  This lines up with what I'd thought I'd seen previously with missiles from the back of the Orky hitting things in front of it.

As a result, I'd expect Assailants (phase missiles) and Javelis Long Range Missile Frigates to actually perform quite similarly to what you're reporting for Illuminators.

 

I think it must just come down to the raw higher max DPS of the 'lums as they can take full advantage of it.  I bet if their total DPS was test-nerfed to that of LRM or Assailants you would have the same survival rates.

 

Also, when considering the survival rates of Corvs vs LRF, you should also consider the fact that LRFs are significantly more expensive than Corvs so IMO that should be expected.

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July 28, 2012 10:30:56 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ,

Damage table for Anti-Medium weapons (AKA as LRFs):

Medium Armor 1.3333333

Very Light Armor 1.000000

That's right, LRFs are almost as good against corvettes as they are against light frigates...of course, this is easily overlooked since LRFs suck at turning and shooting the damn things....unless you are an ILLUMINATOR, in which case the sillly fighter behavior of corvettes doesn't matter...so what ends up happening is that massed illuminators practically become immune to corvettes....

Did some tests to confirm this:

40 illuminators vs. 80 TEC corvettes

Corvettes win, but with ridiculous losses (only about 25-30 survive)

50 illuminators vs. 100 TEC corvettes

Corvettes win with same ridiculous losses (only about 40 survive)

To put this into perspective:

75 LRMs vs. 100 TEC Corvettes

Corvettes win with hardly any losses (about 70 survive)

So.......

Once you start getting into the 30s or so with illuminators, corvettes essentially become a non issue...corvettes barely beat out the illuminators without defense vessels being involved, add those and nothing short of HCs or a powerful AoE can stop an Advent fleet...this is why AL and their coronata is so powerful, because you combine the best fleet with the best support ability (suppression) and 2nd best FFing ability (Unity Mass)...

This is an issue specifically with the illuminator, but how does one make the illuminator weaker against corvettes without removing the side weapons?  I propose that the damage table be changed such that Anti-medium weapons no longer fair so well very light armor...maybe a value or .80 or .75 would be more appropriate...sure the illuminator will always have an advantage over the other LRFs when going against corvettes, but the LRM and kanrak make up for it with better focus fire...the current situation though is just ridiculous, there is no counter whatsoever against illuminators other than HCs, and that simply is not acceptable...

First of, let me say that when you still use corvettes by the time the enemy is having fifty!   illuminators, you deserve to get your ass handed.

 

Lets see what all those ships cost:

 

40 Iluminators

- Require 3 Temples of Hostility:

- Credit Cost: 15200

- Metal Cost: 2400

- Crystal Cost:2200

- Supply Cost: 240

- Minimum Build time: 1040 seconds, assuming you have always enough resources to keep the factory running

 

80 TEC corvettes

- Require 1 Civic Research Center

- Credit Cost: 15200

- Metal Cost: 1600

- Crystal Cost: 800

- Supply Cost: 240

- Minimum Build time: 1120 seconds

 

Comparsion:

2 more labs

Credit Cost: 0

Metall Cost: 800

Crystal Cost: 1400

Supply: 0

Minimum Build time: 80

 

You need 80 seconds more build time but you save yourself 800 metal and 1400 crystal. Sounds like a good deal for me.

 

Then you said that at least 25 corvettes survived that battle...

 

So your actually only lost:

- Credits: 10450

- Metal: 1100

- Crystal: 550

- Minimum Rebuild time: 770 seconds

 

That means that the Advent in total lost

 

- 4750 credits

- 1300 metal

- 1650 crystal

 

more than you.

 

Now tell me, why should the Advent again build illuminators ? Doesnt make sense, he takes heavier losses than you and btw, you are TEC. By the time he has 40 illuminators you should have a better economy than him. That means that even if you two would have had lost the same amount of resources, you would still win!

 

 

Now for the second example: The calculation is the same, although I agree it is a bit more favorable for the Advent here. But that is only naturally so, as with more illuminators even the side beams gets more and more deadly.

 

The very design of the ship and the nature of its weapon make ot do awesome against many not durable targets, there is nothing you can do about that without nerfing it into oblivion.

 

There are 3 LRM frigates in the game, but they all different and so they have different roles.Thats what factional diversity is all about.

 

TEC - Long range artillery--> high damage against single targets

Vasari - Assassination of high priority targets, thanks to phase"what shields?" missiles. Higher rate of fire so better than Javelis against many durable targets

Advent - long range combat support at the cost of concentrated firepower. Illums are great against a fleet of LRMs, but terrible against a fleet of Kodiaks.... they just need to long to do any reasonable damage.

 

Of course the Javelis does suck against Corvettes... the thing fires what...? a missile barrage all 5 seconds? Of course that is  terrible against a swarm of fast moving ships.

But, that is not the point of the Javelis. The point of the Javelis is "cheap firepower" at extreme range. A role is fills excellent, far better than the illuminator. And it much cheaper, meaning you can have many more of them. 

 

For those 50 illuminators you could have had 70 Javelis LRMs.

In some situations, 50 illuminators are going to be more useful, in other situation 70 Javelis are going to be much better.

Try to face an enemy titan with 50 illuminators.... then face it again with 70 Javelis... note who does more damage.

The Javelis has worthless shields and armor, but it should never enter the fray. Illuminators on the other hand need to be in the heart of battle, otherwise you cant use all 3 beams, severly reducing the total effective firepower.

 

BTW, the Javelis is more cost effective than the illuminator both in durabilty for money and damage for money. And thats under the assumption that the Illuminator will always use its 3 beams. 

 

  Javelis Illuminator  
Credits 275,00 380,00  
Metal 45,00 60,00  
Crystal 25,00 55,00  
Supply 4,00 6,00  
Hull points 500,00 620,00  
Armor 1,00 2,00  
Shields 280,00 550,00  
Total Durability 780,00 1170,00  
Damage 11,00 17,00 / 3 beams
Credits for 1 damage 25,00 34,55  
Metal for 1 damage 4,09 5,45  
Crystal for 1 damage 2,27 5,00  
Supply for 1 damage 0,36 0,55  
Credits for 100 hull points 55,00 61,29  
Metal for 100 hull points 9,00 9,68  
Crystal for 100 hull points 5,00 8,87  
Supply for 100 hull points 0,80 0,97  
Credits for 100 shields points 98,21 69,09  
Metal for 100 shield points 16,07 10,91  
Crystal for 100 shield points 8,93 10,00  
supply for 100 shield points 1,43 1,09  
Credits for 100 durability 35,26 32,48  
Metal for 100 durabiliy 5,77 5,13  
Crystal for 100 durablity 3,21 4,70  
Supply for 100 durabilty 0,51 0,51  

 

By the time your enemy fields 30 illuminators, Titans are not far away. And that is something we have to consider as well.

 

This is not Diplomacy anymore. In the average rebellion game an Advent is going to face hostile Titans, capital ship heavy Vasari Loyalists fleets, phase jumping Vasari starbases (and I speak about a balanced version of the Orkulus Rex, mind you) and a possible digged in TEC Loyalist with a starbase and Militia upgrades.

 

To deal with all those things, you need a lot of firepower. Focus firepower. Focus firepower that illuminators can not deliver, unless you ridiculously outnumber your enemy, in which case you have already won. So that leaves Destras... but you cant have those in numbers until quite late in the game. So that leads to and you all know the answer... bomber spam. 

 

Advent need a working other strategy for med - late game other than bomber spam. Advent strikecraft being overall the most powerful, the other option needs to be somewhat appealing. Bomber spam has certain difficulties against many light ships... and thats were the illuminators come in. Think about it, for every 3 illuminators you have to worry about one Aeria and 3 bomber wings less.

 

If playing Advent = bomber spam that is not good, neither for the race nor for the fun of the game.

 

If we are going to change the illuminator we have to be very carefull. The units is far less usefull overall in Rebellion than in Diplomacy with Titans and similar new stuff flying arround.

 

 

Corvettes are an early game harassment unit. They are best countered by having more corvettes than the enemy. (Flak is a bit more cost efficient, but flak cannot lead a counter offense, corvettes can). When titans enter the field, mass corvettes are quickly outmatched against one of the many AoE abilities that the average fleet is fielding by then. A few corvettes for their special crippling damage perhaps, but thats about it.

 

And please get down from your hate for supression aura. . Yes, it is a powerful ability, but so are many others in this game. And a Coronata with it is far from invulnerable, even with 100 illuminators at its side.

 

On a final note, lets not forget that the illuminator has to have a place in the Advent Rebels gameplay, too.

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July 28, 2012 10:35:21 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting MayallCommunion,
3. Advent get them at tier 3 therefore they are still to late to actually have any impact against corvettes yours is just theory craft but by the time you have 100 corvettes there is no way the advent will have 50 illums.

If there is a lot of back and forward going on its entirely possible both players will have to rebuild their fleets at some point. Especially with titans. If I see my opponent building a lot of LRFs I should be building Corvettes, but with the Advent that counter doesn't work so well. Sure maybe I could just build more LRFs, because Assailants and LRMs are better at focus fire, but that doesn't seem ideal to me.

Quoting ussrAvA,
Lol, either way.. illums are unique by design they dont do anymore damage.. just over bigger arcs, reducing the need to turn to fire. SO perhaps you should stop building corvettes... so many atleast.

But LRF are the one thing Corvettes are supposed to counter. I realize their speed makes them better at finishing units off, but as damage dealers they shouldn't be anywhere near as bad as before. Besides early game expansion, this is the only time where I would want to build a lot of corvettes.

Edit: Aries, I am not saying just nerf the illuminator. It would affect all LRF, its just the imbalance was only really obvious with them. As you say Illums will always have an edge on multiple weaker targets, but I think a moderate damage reduction would be a good thing.

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July 28, 2012 10:42:23 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,

Quoting Ekko_Tek, reply 3Carriers/strikecraft

Carriers are a lot harder to get that early than illuminators are...it's not just about labs, it's about instant firepower (which carriers don't give) and construction times...illuminators also have instant mobility, while carriers are useless if you start jumping them immediately after they are built...fighters also are extremely easy to counter with flak, and you can bet any Advent player worth a damn is fielding both illuminators and defense vessels if they see you trying to amass carriers...


Quoting Ekko_Tek, reply 3What wins for cost in a fight between TEC LRMs and Illums?

75 LRMs vs. 50 Illuminators

LRMs win with heavy losses (~22 survivors, or 29.3%, even worse than the corvettes though that's hardly surprising)...


Quoting Ekko_Tek, reply 3How does the battle turn out if it's Vasari corvettes vs. Illums in your above examples (more health, shields, damage)?

75 Vasari Corvettes vs. 50 Illuminators

Illuminators win with varying degrees of success, hardly surprising considering how awful Vasari ships generally are....

You can't counter Illuminators with flak, and a small portion of defense vessels will completely negate the threat of corvettes....trying to outdo the illuminators by simply building your own LRFs really isn't going to work too well either unless you have more ships or much better AoEs...as stated earlier, fighters again aren't really going to be too useful because they are hard countered by flak and aren't viable that early anyway...

Doesn't matter whether you are TEC or Vasari, you can't counter illuminators...sure, you can beat them if you have more ships, better AoEs, or are pushing the Advent player back and winning huge over them before they get the chance to amass illuminators...but once the illuminators are amassed you only have 2 options: build HCs, or simply try to be bigger and badder....

The first option is hardly viable that early, especially when you consider the construction times for HCs...the 2nd option isn't really an option and certainly isn't a counter...

Another Test:

75 LRMs vs. 75 Vasari Corvettes

Corvettes win (~44 survivors, or 59%, which is much better than any corvette against the illuminators)

Since LRMs are generally considered the best LRF, and Vasari corvettes are generally considered the worst, I would argue that the survival rate would be even higher should you substitute in kanraks or TEC corvettes...

Bottomline:


LRMs and kanraks get shredded by corvettes of any type, but illuminators don't, and in some cases can even beat corvettes...
In general, corvettes do not counter LRFs as well as they probably should...most hard counters yield surival rates around 70%-90% for the counter unit, but barring illuminators, corvettes are looking at the 50%-70% region...
There is no viable counter against illuminators that early in the game, and Advent already have best LF and best flak (not sure about corvette, but it certainly isn't the worst)...

I would argue this is a problem with corvettes in general, but it is most apparent when you throw them against illluminators...I believe the core of the issue is that LRFs and their anti-medium weaponry perform too well against very light armor...I am unsure of the exact value to put here, but a reduction from 1.00 to .90 or .80 would be a much needed improvement...even going as low as .75 may be necessary, I don't know at this point....

Because of their higher tier and lack of FFing ability, I'm fine with illuminators being better against corvettes than the other LRFs...but this is just wrong, illuminators should not be doing this well against a unit that allegedley counters them....

 

As I did mention above, illuminators have a somewhat different mission profile than the Javelis or the Kanrak. I am against a unit that does everything well, too, but nerving the illuminator to much will in fact increase bomber spam, not lower it. You just dont have that many good options as Advent and all of those compete with the very powerful bomber spam.

 

The problem with flak is that it is absoluty terrible against anything else. The moment the corvette spam is over those flak frigates are wasted money, especially for advent who can have fighter superiority at any time.

 

Quoting GoaFan77,

Illums are always going to do better against Corvettes because of their directional fire. However, no other unit in the game does as much damage to its counter as LRF does to Corvettes. This is almost certainly a result of Corvettes using VeryLight armor, and before Rebellion, only fighters used that. Since LRF cannot fire of fighters, this matchup never came up and they forgot about it.

I believe a 25-50% decrease in antimedium to verylight is justified. Illums will still be better off, but Corvettes will take fewer losses from the engagement, forcing even Advent players to protect them with some flak, though they can get away with far fewer than Vasari or TEC.

Also all else being equal, we should not encourage players to use strikecraft. Bombers are already way to overused, and fighters actually lag the game more than anything else. If we can make a nonstrikecraft counter better without hurting anything else I think we should.

 

I agree, less strike craft in the average game would be a welcome change. However to make that happen we have to make the alternatives more appealing for the advent players. Right now bomber spam is the easiest and most cost effective way to deal with any hard target as well as with lower numbers of lighter ships.

If you weaken the illuminator to much, bomber spam will be more appealing than before.

An Aeria drone host with 1 of 3 squadrons has an immediatly firepower of 21.... ok... bombers dont fire so often so lets maybe half that... 10,5.... a single illuminator does arround 5,6 damage per single beam... and by the time you have more illuminators all 3 squadrons are there... it doesnt take that long afterall. Besides, if you send your illuminators into battle 1 by 1... their are going to do quite poorly... just like any other ship.

 

The main reason that speaks against early carrier spam is the hefty price tag... you cannot afford the numbers of carriers needed to stand against all those light ships, in terms of pure damage.... carriers are better than illuminators.

 

I recently did an total comparsion of all carrier cruisers and their strikecraft in the game; (going to post the full details with shiny graphics about it the next week or so) but I can already tell you today with absolute certainty that if you go full carriers and the Advent goes full carrier... you will loose that arms race.

 

LRMs by design have major trouble against illuminators... just like illuminators by design have major trouble against singular hard targets. They have to be used differently because of that.

 

Defense vessels kill your corvettes? Well, for 3 defense vessels more he will have 2 illuminators less... and that means even less focus firing capacity for him.

 

You are TEC.... Trader Emergency Coalition.... make use of it. Look above... Javelis offer more bang and more armor for your money... and with TEC at this stage of the game you are supposed to have more money than the Advent. Advent economy is lackluster... believe me...

 

If he can field 50 illuminators you should be capable of fielding 90 - 100 Javelis. Sure, it is going to be brutal and you are going to take heavy losses... but so is he... and that is what counts for TEC. If you loose 90 % of your fleet.... well that not a problem... because you got the economy the rebuild them faster and more often than he can rebuild his 100 % lost fleet.

 

Most TEC ships are very robust for their price and they have the best armor upgrades readily available. Use them. Advent ships are flimsy glass cannons, that is why they so desperately try to kill you before you penetrate their shields. That is why they have the most powerful fleet synergy... because without it they cant hold their own in a straight fight.

BTW, the Javelis has a nice AoE attack... you could use that to deal with illums, too.

 

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,
This is odd... Unlike "Projectile" or "Beam" weapon effect types, "Missile" weapon effect types can shoot at anything in range because the missiles simply curve around.  Missile weapons are basically omnidirectional; better than three directional beams.

I'd thought that Missiles seemed to have wider firing arcs previously but I definitely confirmed it when I replaced the lasers on the Progenitor today with Psionic Surge guns which are of type "Missile."  Side weapons are fully capable of targeting the front and vice-versa.  This lines up with what I'd thought I'd seen previously with missiles from the back of the Orky hitting things in front of it.

As a result, I'd expect Assailants (phase missiles) and Javelis Long Range Missile Frigates to actually perform quite similarly to what you're reporting for Illuminators.

 

I think it must just come down to the raw higher max DPS of the 'lums as they can take full advantage of it.  I bet if their total DPS was test-nerfed to that of LRM or Assailants you would have the same survival rates.

 

One possible problem could be that the missiles fly comparable slow.... if the enemy is quick he can jump out of range.... before they impact.

 

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July 28, 2012 11:01:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Honestly thus far this proposition strikes me as a desire to nerf something for ideological reasons rather then balance reasons- which always is  a rather dangerous proposition.

 

Are Illuminaters actually dominating multiplayer play in a manner that cannot be adequately dealt with or countered?  Because frankly I think the answer tot hat question is FAR more important then whether the Illuminator's pre-perscribed counter happens to counter it as hard as most counters.  Things should be nerfed only if they disrupt balance, not just because they aren't perfectly uniform in how they interact with their counters with all other comparable classes of ships.

 

 


Frankly the way I see it is this:  Illuminators by and large are worse at fufilling the LRM role in general then it's peers(the Javelis focusfires better and costs less and the Assailant has phase missiles which are a tremendous bonus to focusfire, not to mention both sport longer attack range), but the converse is that it is also less susceptable to counters(better survivability & side beams *help* against corvettes).

It's yield is generally less then it's peers in fufilling the role of a LRM frigate, but in return it can fufill that role more consistantly, less subject to counters.

I would like to emphasize the word "less".  An equal resource cost of corvettes should certainly  beat Illuminators, but I'm not so bothered by the magnitude of the victory being less then would be the case against other LRM frigates.  I'm not necessarily saying absolutely nothing should be done so much as any changes should be carefully considered and done with a very delicate touch- the Illum has been so long without a niche already.

 

 

Also there are 2 very key points overlooked by a direct comparison of corvettes VS illuminators.  Corvettes come out 1-2 tiers earlier then illuminators(meaning the guy building corvettes has mroe time to build, resulting in probably a larger resource-total's worth of corvettes then their opponent has Illums).  The fact that illums come out T3- later then any other LRM frigate is a pretty big deal- heck it's always been the most exploitable weakness in the advent's early game.

Secondly, Micro can definitely improve the trade in favor of the corvettes-Illums still can't fire directly behidn themselves- keeping corvettes out of the firing arcs of much of the fleet of illums certainly requires more effort then doing the same against Javelis or Assailant frigates, but it's certainly doable.

 

Honestly I just hope we avoid any sort of kneejerk nerf- Too often I've seen things in game get unnecessary nerfs with conceptual justifications despite the entities in question not causing notable balance disruption.  If such problems are being caused, I'm all for adjustments.  But frankly "it isn't countered as hard by corvettes as other ships of the same class" alone doesn't sell me on a nerf.  

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July 28, 2012 11:02:32 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Blue text is painful...  

EDIT: for some reason it is less painful on my external monitor..  Weird..

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July 29, 2012 12:33:18 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ekko_Tek,
Your test result showed that 53 TEC LRM was equal to the task of 50 Illums, which cost way more and won't get massed like that until later than the LRMs, which means you need to be building something else than illuminators in the meantime

Wrong, this test shows that if you pit 75 LRMs against 50 illuminators, and do not bring in any reinforcements or cap ship AoEs, that's how many LRMs die....in reality, you are reinforcing your fleet and using capital ship abilities...illuminators have a much smaller build-time per fleet supply than LRMs (4.83s vs. 6.25s), making them easier to amass...they also have brutal early AoEs while the Vasari have none...

Quoting Proletari,
I really dont think that nerfing UNDERUSED ship's dmg against an OVERUSED ship type (any game today starts with packs of corvettes flying around) is such a good idea,or that it should be a concern at all.

Illuminators are hardly underused, and corvettes can easily be countered just fine....just perception on what actually occurs in competitive games is distorted...

Quoting MayallCommunion,
While I understand what you are saying I think we can exempt Illums for a few reasons. 1. It will make not all the LRF's useless and add diversity to the game.2. They are still not cost effective against corvettes.3. Advent get them at tier 3 therefore they are still to late to actually have any impact against corvettes yours is just theory craft but by the time you have 100 corvettes there is no way the advent will have 50 illums.

Someone gets 100 corvettes, what do you do?  Build flak...oh nos, they see your flak, what do they build?  Light frigates...guess what Advent is going to amass now?  If you haven't seen large amounts of illuminators, play online more...number one build for AL is coronata + illuminator spam, with defense vessels if necessary...

Illums build very fast and in large numbers have no hard counter...but the issue isn't just illluminators, it is the corvette/LRF matchup in general, it is the weakest hard counter in the game and the easiest to deal with since flak/corvette is the strongest hard counter...

I haven't asked for a nerf against just illuminators, I've asked for a small nerf for all LRF against their counter...

 

 

 

 

 

 

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July 29, 2012 1:05:43 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Heh..which happens to be Illuminators.

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July 29, 2012 1:42:31 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@Seleucia:

  1. Your point is valid and your reasoning is solid
  2. I respect you a lot and you're smarter than I am
  3. I gave you karma

But I disagree.

Advent have been kinda the butt-monkey in Sins for a while. They get shafted in economy, their LRFs can't focus fire or bypass phase missiles; all they get are good strike craft and good culture.

My stance?

Let them be good at this one thing.

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July 29, 2012 3:07:47 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

This has inspired me to begin a new Sins bumper sticker section:

  • "Illuminators Happen."
  • "Don't make me open a can of corvettes on you!"
  • "If starbases were meant to fly, Advent and TEC would too."
  • "Don't be a traitor--say, "NO!" to Vasari Rebels!"
  • "My other car is a TITAN!"
  • "Cobalts...We might not have much armor but our firepower sucks too."
  • "Corvettes...the flying muscle cars of the future."
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