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Great Scott! Jumping Orkies Balance Idea

By on September 12, 2012 4:09:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Howdidudothat

Join Date 04/2008
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I'm not here to beat this dead horse any more, and I think everybody is aware that I have been championing adding an upgrade slot for the SB.  The reason I am making this thread is to give a clear presentation of the advantages of this idea and to provide an implementation strategy. 

Having an upgrade slot for each SB would do three things:

  1. The VR player will not have unlimited jumping SBs
  2. There is an additional cost for each SB that you want mobile
  3. You have to sacrifice one of the eight upgrade slots, meaning your SB can't be fully upgraded with armor, weapons, fighters, debris vortex, frontal deflector, etc.

So, maybe one of the reasons the devs haven't implemented this idea is because there are no upgrade slots left on the screen (for whatever reason, I don't see many items that use the "F" hotkey slot).  Well, I have a solution to that too.  As you may or may not know, VR lost the Enslaved Labor tech, which I disagree with by the way, but I digress.  Fitting into losing the Enslaved Labor tech, I suggest replacing the Colony Pod upgrade slot with Phase Space Engine upgrade slot.

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September 12, 2012 4:19:04 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I vote for using the Phase Jump ability as a secondary upgrade after Phase Stabilizer Node. Agree with the fleet capacity costs completely.

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September 12, 2012 4:20:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

To beat it to death: I partially second your proposal but I still think the minimum number of upgrade slots used is 3. 4-5 Would be much more sensible, making for a nice risk/reward mechanic when it comes to outfitting Orkuli.

 But then again the Vasari have all the devs' love they can get why do you think anything will change? 

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September 12, 2012 4:23:04 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

So, maybe one of the reasons the devs haven't implemented this idea is because there are no upgrade slots left on the screen (for whatever reason, I don't see many items that use the "F" hotkey slot). Well, I have a solution to that too. As you may or may not know, VR lost the Enslaved Labor tech, which I disagree with by the way, but I digress. Fitting into losing the Enslaved Labor tech, I suggest replacing the Colony Pod upgrade slot with Phase Space Engine upgrade slot.

It has been suggested that the upgrade go into a third level of the stabilize phase space upgrade. This would remove 3 upgrades from the combat potential of the orky, and would add additional research prerequisites. So sadly I do not think this is what is keeping the devs from implementing this. Really I think someone at IC just doesn't think this is necessary or is otherwise opposed to it, so we get band aids like a minute of damage debuffs...

Really how, you should get a team of the best players around and challenge IC with you all using Vasari Rebels, building nothing but starbases and each getting economies of hundreds of credits per second without any fleet upgrades. Maybe then they'll see the fundamental issue.

Also, even with starbases "fixed", the VR will still be a great faction, and the lack of enslaved labor is not going to change that.

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September 12, 2012 4:43:10 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Sorry, but I've personally come to the conclusion that Vasari star bases should NOT be allowed to jump anywhere they want regardless of whether it requires an upgrade or not.

Vasari as a faction, in general, is hardly at a disadvantage compared to the other factions. Introducing a phase jump anywhere star base, while absolutely cool has no place in the game.

Notice I said phase jump anywhere, as I'm ok with allowing Vasari star bases to jump wherever a PHASE NODE exists. This is a completely reasonable restriction and adds much needed balance and strategy to a cool concept.

 

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September 12, 2012 5:59:55 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Making them restricted to places with Phase Nodes would be perfectly fine with me.  As for making them an upgrade..

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September 12, 2012 6:12:20 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Another thing is to accept that we have them and look at it from an in-game, real-life view.  What would TEC and Advent do?

How about for TEC we allow an additional research ability for phase inhibitors that deals damage to starbases only jumping into the system.  This is essentially an exact reverse of the starbase given damage when you jump out of a gravity well.

It's a reasonable counter that's less expensive and so helps soak off advantage of Orkulus Rex.

Keeping in the spirit of faction distinctiveness, create a researchable, starbase-only mass disorientation ability for Advent phase inhibitors.

Another thing would be to create a TEC starbase-only mine type that does hella damage.  This would help buff their crappy mine tech.

It may be Ironclad is waiting to come up with a solution that adds to starbase play rather than just "fixes it".

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September 12, 2012 6:29:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

1. The VR player will not have unlimited jumping SBs

Howthe, please explain, as you provide no conceptual basis in your post to support this statement.  As your concept stands, the vasari rebels still, in fact, will be able to acquire enough of these (lets say in a 5v5 the critical number of these mobile starbases would be 5, one for each opposing players homeworld).  There is nothing aside from pure cost to mitigate the mass production of these starbases.  cost alone does not balance these as we have seen in a few multiplayer matches (that have all become one sided vasari starbase spam fests).

Also, any vasari rebel player in the eco position has an advantage no other economy player in game can have.  They can provide a highly effective defense AND offense with one unit that can be spammed with their strong economy (that is never going to be hindered by pesky fleet logistics upgrades, so they will have the best economic potential as well).  

The cost is justified as they are an extremely efficient use of credits.  

With logistic slot/capital ship crews(i do still consider the jump starbase OP even with these requirements), this will help to bring the jumping starbase idea into balance.  Until then I don't expect there to be any serious player approval of the idea, as why would we waste our time testing something that any person with multiplayer experience would know is a suicide game?

As it stands, as a faction, the vasari rebels have no weaknesses at all, and no counters, except for other vasari rebel players.

The other points (#2, #3) are valid and align with your balance change.

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September 12, 2012 8:57:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think VL, not VR, should have jumping orkies....then, remove trade ports and culture centers from the VL...

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September 13, 2012 3:18:40 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Making Phase Jumping for SBs cost slots is a pretty good solution but it still allows the VR to have a 'ship' stronger than any capital for no fleet supply.

Crazy idea:

Phase engines for SBs could become a tier 1 tech that is the prerequisite for remote assembly and also limits starbase upgrade slots to only 4 in total and increases their cost and/or makes them cost a bit of fleet supply.

VR SBs would be a little harder to get but far more flexible in the early game. However, VR SBs would overall be far weaker to compensate their flexibility.

 

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September 13, 2012 6:47:04 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I don't think I'm OK with tacking on phase engines to stabilize phase space.  They seem like two totally different techs, and I really don't see the point of colony pods, especially with VR.  I also think 3 upgrade slots it kind of high, but I'd be OK with it taking up two slots.

I would be ok with maybe making the upgrade slot cost fleet supply (between 20-40), but I don't like the idea of cap ship slots.

As for unlimited number as Sareth mentioned, I don't think the problem is UNLIMITED as it is that you can jump out a badly damaged SB and jump in a brand new one.  Let's face it, you only have so many fronts to defend.  I think something like a 5 minute cooldown for the "ability" might in order (and somehow tie it to preventing additional jump ins if the first blows up).  Perhaps even add AM as a prerequisite to jump, so you might have a fighting chance of preventing it from jumping (disc AM steal or dunov EMP).

And Seleuceia, stop trolling.

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September 13, 2012 10:11:51 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Howdidudothat,
Perhaps even add AM as a prerequisite to jump, so you might have a fighting chance of preventing it from jumping (disc AM steal or dunov EMP).
Making it an active ability which requires antimatter and has a cooldown time might just be what we need to balance this tech. Add the Phase Stabilizer node upgrade as a prerequisite and a fleet capacity cost to it and I think it will be nerfed enough to be tolerable in multiplayer games.

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September 13, 2012 1:10:28 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

discussed this with Volt long ago when he was working on his Rebalanced Races mod (his mod requires an upgrade for the Orky to jump)....my argument was that by tying phase jumping to the stabilize phase space upgrade, you could easily make it so that the orky could only jump while stabilize phase space is active...

The buff allowing the jump to be made would dissappear upon exiting hyperspace, meaning that the orky could only jump every x seconds, where x is the cooldown of the stabilize phase space ability...the advantage of this method is that a VR eco cannot build the SBs in his territory and quickly move them to the frontlines....additionally, you couldn't blitz through several enemy worlds or follow retreating fleets...

At the very least, the SBs would have to be constructed at the frontlines (which may make them easier to kill before they "go on the move") or they would take much longer to get anywhere...consider an ability cooldown of 10 minutes...if you could only jump once every 10 minutes, offensives with the Orky would be slowed down tremendously...I'm not saying that's the best number to pick, but I think it would dramatically reduce the effectiveness...keep in mind this also could be combined with an SB upgrade requirement (let's say a 2nd level of stabilize phase space), meaning jump capable orkies could have at most only 6 combat upgrades (requiring one upgrade simply isn't enough, since full HP and weapons is 7 upgrades)....

Quoting Howdidudothat,
And Seleuceia, stop trolling.

Sacrifice trade and culture for jumping SBs (with no strings attached)...sounds like a fair trade considering they have SttC and mobile rulership...

 

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September 13, 2012 1:27:28 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

As I have mentioned in another topic:

 

Reduce the sublight speed of ALL orkulus starbases by 50 percent.

 

If you are not willing to do that, please at least half the speed of the jump capable Orky.

 

Right now, a fully upgraded Orky can jum onto your MAX fortified borderworld... fly by the defenses and jump to the next system. Your fleet will need AGES to catch up to it. Usually it will be at your Capital world for quite some time until your fleet can engage it.

 

Generaly, the movement alone is a tremendous advantage over any other starbase in the game. Making Orkies sublight slower would also make the underused Ogrovs a lot more competivly.

 

And yes, a at least 5 minute cooldown between phase jumps would solve many problems immediatly.

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September 13, 2012 4:00:38 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
Sacrifice trade and culture for jumping SBs (with no strings attached)...sounds like a fair trade considering they have SttC and mobile rulership...

Not all of us use SttC, and that tech has been nerfed enough to not make it worthwhile, at least to me.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, using SttC is shortsighted should the game continue for any period of time.

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September 13, 2012 6:00:25 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Howdidudothat,
Not all of us use SttC.....

Don't you think I knew that?  Trolls cater to their audience...

I will say though that some early stripping (like one or 2 planets) actually still works amazingly well....

 

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September 13, 2012 6:11:30 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Never mind.  Posted in the wrong thread... second time ive done that...

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September 13, 2012 6:23:46 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

1 upgrade slot wont be enough unless you make it ridiculously expensive 

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September 13, 2012 6:41:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Greg30007,
1 upgrade slot wont be enough unless you make it ridiculously expensive

That's why I'm thinking it should be a third level of stabilize phase space. That way you have to get 3 upgrades.

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September 13, 2012 10:08:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Howdidudothat,
I don't think I'm OK with tacking on phase engines to stabilize phase space.  They seem like two totally different techs, and I really don't see the point of colony pods, especially with VR.  I also think 3 upgrade slots it kind of high, but I'd be OK with it taking up two slots.

I would be ok with maybe making the upgrade slot cost fleet supply (between 20-40), but I don't like the idea of cap ship slots.

As for unlimited number as Sareth mentioned, I don't think the problem is UNLIMITED as it is that you can jump out a badly damaged SB and jump in a brand new one.  Let's face it, you only have so many fronts to defend.  I think something like a 5 minute cooldown for the "ability" might in order (and somehow tie it to preventing additional jump ins if the first blows up).  Perhaps even add AM as a prerequisite to jump, so you might have a fighting chance of preventing it from jumping (disc AM steal or dunov EMP).

Right now we can spam unlimited numbers of these up to the point that you run out of gravity wells and/or the hardware can't support it.

20-40 logistics slot requirements is quite a tame number indeed, and isn't more then a capital ship.    It should be at a miniumum 100% more logistics slots compared to a cap ship(coming to 100), as the relative power of a vasari starbase is far greater then that of even 2 cap ships, or even a lvl 1 titan.  The starbase can be very strong, and it has many abilities that can be upgraded into it, and it can clear out dug in enemy worlds,  Like a titan.  It just levels differently(economically) and when fully upgraded its as strong as a levelled titan.  It should require at least one capital ship crew to help create a hard cap on the absolute number of these that a vasari rebel player can be able to field in the game.   Requiring capital ship crews would also  increase the cost  of spamming these pseudo titans.

If your team has 5 of these in a 5v5, then they have 5 more titans.

More titans means your team will win, as 2 titans beat 1 titan.  Its really quite simple, and needs an obvious nerf in both the efficacy of vasari starbases and in the amount that these can be spammed.

So for the cost of one constructor, one starbase construction cost, and one starbase upgrade, you will have a starbase capable of walking through the enemy worlds, which can be upgraded as the tactical situation permits.  Imagine how many of these you could spam creating wave after wave of these monsters.  Getting a kostura cannon up and running only exacerbates the imbalance, as you now can send a starbase anywhere in the map anytime you wish.

These unupgraded vasari starbase are effective enough lure to prompt a strong defensive action from an opponent and be used to lure away enemy fleets, giving the vasari rebel player near total control of the most important aspects of the entire match.  As howthe has also said, they are easily retreated from a fight at low health as well, and all you need is a friendly cross map phase node to retreat them to.  No losses, while the vasari rebel starbases are killing entire fleets and slowly choking all worlds with their starbase spam so there is nowhere to go.  This is a hard opponent to 3v1, let alone 1v1.

Its simply intolerable.

 

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September 14, 2012 3:32:29 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Teun-A-Roonius,
I vote for using the Phase Jump ability as a secondary upgrade after Phase Stabilizer Node.

I agree with this(Said so a few times elsewhere too).  I like mobile starbases, but making it global is a bit much.

-Twi

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September 14, 2012 9:10:16 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I haven't been around for very long with this game, but would like to weigh in on the discussion.  I will say that VR is mostly what I play as single player and LAN with a friend.

I would have to agree that something does need to be done about the VR starbases' ability to phase jump.  I do like/agree with a couple of the suggestions here in putting phase jump as a 3rd level upgrade to phase stabilizer and making it cost cap points (although not fleet).  But there are a couple other things to it that I'd like to suggest:

  1. Simply putting phase jump to 3rd tier of phase stabilizer is good in being able to limit its power, but it would still have the ability to stabilize phase space for friendly fleets where ever they may be in the star system.  I think that with this upgrade, phase jumping a SB should kick off the cool down for the stabilize phase space.  After all, the SB is deadly, even with less combat upgrades, but a SB supported by a friendly fleet is deadlier still.  Yes, the VR player can still amass their fleet over with the SB and jump it in too, but at least their opponent would have a better idea as to where to put their counter fleet....
  2. While I do like the idea of the phase jumping SBs costing cap points, having them cost it right out-of-box, if you will, is a bit much as it would over nerf the SB and put the VR player in a severe disadvantage in static defense.  Now, maybe what I'm saying here is what all of you meant, but I didn't see anyone clearly state it, so I will: the cap point cost should only apply when the phase jump upgrade is applied to the SB.  This way it does not limit the player from putting SBs in all of their gravity wells like other players can, but it will limit how many jumping SBs they have and, consequently, the number of Capital ships they can field at the same time.  As such, I also feel the cost in cap points should be more than 1 point.  Perhaps on the order of 2-3, as it would still probably be more powerful than a Titan.

Anyways, as I said, I haven't been playing very long, maybe a month, so I don't expect many people to give my words weight, but I just wanted to put my own opinion out there.

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September 14, 2012 2:14:15 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

One way I see this game is that defensive structures don't cost fleet supply. Everything that can be used offensive does - excluding super weapons.

Exclusion are vasari  which can attack with SB but still until now they had to build it in gravity well therefore they owned at least part of that well.

Once you bring Phase jumping ability to structure, ship .... whatever that has weapons mounted it becomes integrated into the fleet and becomes primary offensive.

And everything that can be used as one of attacking options should use at least some of fleet supply.

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September 14, 2012 2:23:04 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Greg30007,
One way I see this game is that defensive structures don't cost fleet supply. Everything that can be used offensive does - excluding super weapons.

This is my point of moving phase jumping star bases back to a defensive structure by allowing them to ONLY jump to where phase nodes exist.

You'll still have the option to attack with a Kostura or leveled Antorak.

Implementing this setup would still be an awesome advantage to a Vasari Rebel player. It would just take a bit more time to setup the infrastructure needed to defend anywhere or attack anywhere.

Considering Vasari players did this with just fleets pre-Rebellion in MP games I don't see any issue with implementing it this way.

 

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September 16, 2012 2:08:14 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Considering Vasari players did this with just fleets pre-Rebellion in MP games I don't see any issue with implementing it this way.

keyword, "pre-rebellion".

the tactical situation changes just a bit when the orkies can jump safely TO the target and you aren't relying on a sneaky starbase build on an enemy HW.

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September 16, 2012 5:31:30 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,

Considering Vasari players did this with just fleets pre-Rebellion in MP games I don't see any issue with implementing it this way.

keyword, "pre-rebellion".

the tactical situation changes just a bit when the orkies can jump safely TO the target and you aren't relying on a sneaky starbase build on an enemy HW.

All tactics in rebellion are an extension of pre-rebellion concepts.

Limiting jumping of Orkies only to where phase nodes exists results in balance and still maintains an aggressive defensive and offensive stance for Vasari given the right technology build out.

This actually adds tactics and strategy versus the dumb dumb build a starbase and attack everywhere with them that has unbalanced VR to the point where it can't be played online.

 

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