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Titans are killing SoaSE

By on September 29, 2012 9:27:28 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Mecha-Lenin

Join Date 02/2006
+35

I've played a few games of Rebelllion yesterday. Game is still fundamentally broken. Issues like Wail are fairly easy to fix, biggest problem in my opinion are titans.

Why titans ruin the gameplay:

  1. AoE too powerful. Ruins late game counter chain and dumbs game down to mindless carrier spamming.
  2. Survivability too high at levels past 4-5.
  3. They're easy to rebuild. Player who has been pretty much beaten can pull lv5 titan out of his ass. No, it's not a good thing.
  4. 1v2,1v3 vs decent players is now near unmanageable. 2 titans beat 1 titan, period.
  5. Suicide spot survival used to be one of cool aspects of the game. Now its just frustrating for reasons stated above.
  6. Killing a titan doesn't give much benefit. In diplo one won battle often meant rolling all of the opponents planets. Now you often don't even have time to bomb 1. This creates stalemate situations.

Fixes:

  1. Nerf all AoE hard
  2. Nerf HP/armor increase with level
  3. Titans should lose XP on death
  4. Titans should only be built on volc/ice/desert/terran planets designated as capital
  5. Shift titan role from AoE/damage to buffing/debuffing fleets.

 

It's been said a million times... but since player count is now down to ~100 from 300 during peak hours, it clearly wasn't said enough.

 

PS: please don't paste guy beating the dead horse pic.

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September 29, 2012 11:44:27 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Or ahve a tunable before the game that will allow you to disable them for some matches?

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September 29, 2012 12:05:37 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

This is actually serious. Me gusta.

/signed, even if it is a troll.

-Lord Brony

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September 29, 2012 12:37:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ,

I've played a few games of Rebelllion yesterday. Game is still fundamentally broken. Issues like Wail are fairly easy to fix, biggest problem in my opinion are titans.

Why titans ruin the gameplay:


AoE too powerful. Ruins late game counter chain and dumbs game down to mindless carrier spamming.
Survivability too high at levels past 4-5.
They're easy to rebuild. Player who has been pretty much beaten can pull lv5 titan out of his ass. No, it's not a good thing.
1v2,1v3 vs decent players is now near unmanageable. 2 titans beat 1 titan, period.
Suicide spot survival used to be one of cool aspects of the game. Now its just frustrating for reasons stated above.
Killing a titan doesn't give much benefit. In diplo one won battle often meant rolling all of the opponents planets. Now you often don't even have time to bomb 1. This creates stalemate situations.

Fixes:


Nerf all AoE hard
Nerf HP/armor increase with level
Titans should lose XP on death
Titans should only be built on volc/ice/desert/terran planets designated as capital
Shift titan role from AoE/damage to buffing/debuffing fleets.

It's been said a million times... but since player count is now down to ~100 from 300 during peak hours, it clearly wasn't said enough.

PS: please don't paste guy beating the dead horse pic.

I agree that this is an excellent way to balance the game for your intention, yet it comes at a cost.

Titans are cool.  I would recommend fixing how the player acquires them. As always, the time element in this game is the most important, so therefore developers should design titans to take more time to come into the game.

First things first, the developers would need to either improve all the starbases in the game to match the defensive capability of the orkulus (by giving TEC/Advent SB's movement), or they would have to nerf the orkulus.  This would prevent the vasari quick expand/starbase every world(spam corvettes to defend against ogrovs/starfish)/eco/titan/win strategy.  Right now this strategy is practically invincible.  Or, the developers could really buff TEC/Advent ogrov/starfish units to actually defeat orkulus starbases within a faster time frame.

Second, design the game so that minimum titan build times are balanced so that titans can only be acquired later in the game.  A titan acquired in the late game would be far more vulnerable to a large fleet.  Having a titan require 8 labs, double or triple the construction costs, and increased research costs (having 4 more additional research requirements that cost as much as regular tech lvl 5, 6 , 7, and 8 techs). In this way going titan won't be a strong early game changer, and thus the game won't be so dumbed down because the titans will finish construction much later in the game.  Also, developers can also modify how many logistics slots/ capital ship crews these ships require quite easily.

Eco players would have to choose to either titan up, or feed their allies, as they would probably get the earliest titan.  The game should be tested so that getting a titan requires about 1 hour to acquire.  The developers could add even more to titan construction time, letting players have a viable counter to a titan, that "I'm going to cross the solar system to kill its production before it builds".

I would say that my suggestion is easier to implement, and would still allow the cool titan unit in the game; It would just be where it should be, initially weak, yet the potential to become very very strong.  

Titans would play more like the "research victory" option, yet instead of being a "I WIN BUTTON", they would have to be carefully leveled up.  Also, by the time they enter the game, any competent player should have cleared the pirate gravity well for their own capital ship xp.

Single players would benefit from having later titans as well.  Because titans take so long to build, single players would have to rely on their skill and understanding of fleet mechanics to hold the line vs the AI to then build their "I WIN WITH TITAN" button. After all, a singleplayer game gets boring once you've built a titan, its all about easily grinding titan experience off the AI and nuking AI fleets easily with your uber ship o' death.  This type of game design kills replayability in singleplayer.

In conclusion, I trust this would justify titan power in the game without taking away from the entire point of rebellion, which is pretty much the titan units.  Mecha, your way is a harder sell to the devs because it is directly in conflict with the project lead's primary focus on game design for rebellion.

Thanks for the post, mecha-lenin.

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September 29, 2012 1:12:56 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I would agree with many of the tenets stated here.

they need to lose exactly 1 level every time they die.

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September 29, 2012 1:36:05 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

dumbs game down to mindless carrier spamming

Wasn't carrier spamming an issue before Rebellion as well?

Survivability too high at levels past 4-5.

Yes, survivability does rocket up a lot here. Level 1-2 are not hard to kill though.

They're easy to rebuild.

Depends. They are harder now than earlier patches due to increase cost with each level. They're noticeably more expensive once they have a few levels on them to rebuy - so it depends on how the game is going for eco.

Suicide spot

It's kind of rare to see a Titan be a factor here. I've seen culture force people out before Titans arrived. If a Titan is needed to force someone out in a 2v1 suicide spot, allies should really be making a lot more progress elsewhere.

In diplo one won battle often meant rolling all of the opponents planets.

I wouldn't count this as a good thing. But I don't see how a Titan changes this much.

This creates stalemate situations.

I think Rebellion is less likely to have stalemates due to things like Titan, Strip and Wail. I'll admit I didn't play in Diplo (only in original and Rebellion) but my impression from others is that stalemates are less likely now.  

I do agree though that it makes going 1v2 a lot harder as you can't really skill your way out of 2 Titans vs. 1.

I also agree games focuses a lot around them but just disagree on some of your reasons why. I also don't think the player count being down has any direct relation to Titans being strong. Balance overall is probably a factor. But I think the real reason is just Rebellion didn't attract and hold onto enough new MP players as a whole and so it's normal over time to lose the playerbase from previous years. It needed more MP features to attract and hold onto players for a 2012 game. It's just not an easy game to retain MP players with in general.

 

 

 

 

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September 29, 2012 1:48:41 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums


Titans should lose XP on death
Titans should only be built on volc/ice/desert/terran planets designated as capital

Those are the only two things I disagree with...the level retention on titans is not a problem because the level is retained, but because titans are so ridiculously powerful...I think if the other suggestiosn were implemented the level retention wouldn't be nearly the problem it is now...

I also don't think the titan factory should be isolated to the HW...lots of strategy in setting certain planets to be factory worlds...again, if titans weren't so powerful, I don't think the ability to get them on the frontline as fast would be as problematic....

In general though I agree with the OP...titans become very hard to kill once they hit the level 4/5 mark and the AoE damage approach is kind of boring...I think the biggest annoyance is that corvettes and titans make 2v1s very very hard...that was a cool element of diplomacy and Rebellion pretty much runined it...

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September 29, 2012 5:17:29 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I also agree games focuses a lot around them but just disagree on some of your reasons why. I also don't think the player count being down has any direct relation to Titans being strong. Balance overall is probably a factor. But I think the real reason is just Rebellion didn't attract and hold onto enough new MP players as a whole and so it's normal over time to lose the playerbase from previous years. It needed more MP features to attract and hold onto players for a 2012 game. It's just not an easy game to retain MP players with in general.

Totally agree with this bit.

I'd go further and say that middle ground between mecha and ekko would be that the single player experience is being negatively impacted by the titans because it does make the game so easy for them.  After all, the single player games have easily farmed AI to lvl your quickly built titan, while the AI doesn't do well with experience starvation gameplay.

This results in singleplayers having high lvl titans that are almost unkillable, and makes the singleplayer experience bland. From my own experience I'd say most games on ico are comp stomps, and the single players just lost interest because of this mechanic.

 

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September 29, 2012 7:25:16 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The major problem with drastically increasing the resarch requirement and cost of the Titans, most Titans will never get build.

 

  • If I need 16 labs and 30000 credits to build an Anklyon.. I am not building it.... it would not be worth the costs.
  • So implementation of this means Eradica and Ragnarov... all other titans wont get build...
  • there is also the issue that the game is often times already over when people reach that tech level

 

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September 29, 2012 8:13:27 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ARESIV,
The major problem with drastically increasing the resarch requirement and cost of the Titans, most Titans will never get build.

If I need 16 labs and 30000 credits to build an Anklyon.. I am not building it.... it would not be worth the costs.
So implementation of this means Eradica and Ragnarov... all other titans wont get build...
there is also the issue that the game is often times already over when people reach that tech level

 

Yes you are right aries, yet this can be a good thing.

You see, titans are special units.  too much "special" and the game might not feel so "special" after a while.  I do believe this is occurring right now.

Getting a titan should cost a lot, and be a strain on the eco guy (if there is one). 

Not every game should have a titan in it, as that gets rid of that "special" feelin'.

Replayability is the key, keeping that "special feelin" alive is key.

Also, requiring 8 military labs and more research isn't that over the top.  Also, the devs could balance the less used titans by making them faster to acquire in the game, via requiring a little less resources and build time.  The window might be somewhere in the area of 3-5 minutes of advantage getting your titan out first...perhaps.

Perhaps loyalist titans would be the ones that are a bit quicker into the field, yet all of them aren't "pure power" early game titans.  Would be an interesting dynamic.

 

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September 30, 2012 4:06:32 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Mecha, stop trolling.

 

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September 30, 2012 8:11:33 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Howdidudothat,
Mecha, stop trolling.
He does make some valid points though... Unfortunately I don't see the dev's remaking the titans the way he suggested.

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September 30, 2012 8:44:44 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Un-nerf capital ships against titans (i.e. Add Titan in as a valid constraint anywhere a CapitalShip is for all abilities).

Ion-bolt, Phase out hull, Blackout, Detonate AM(disable)...

 

 

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September 30, 2012 9:36:02 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

These days, Zombie, Seleuc just jump on the troll wagon..

 then you have comments like this:

Quoting Ryat,
Some players (like Dirty Sanchez and Seleuceia) are skilled players

 I mean wtf!

So just because you suckers can't handle a level 1 titan with 10 drone hosts then we have to suffer your unforgiving nerf requests?

 

Hows about you stop rushing for titans and rush to get eco up and blow your bomber counts off the roof.

 

So you ask for nerfs and get skill status? Goa or greg asked for flak nerf and now everybody thinks there pros.. i mean wtf is going on these days. Its nerf this, nerf that-wail spanked me, wail cockholded me? Rebel titan kissed my behind and shot it to pieaces? Who the F cares.

If You think you can survive with your frigates at a suicide spot then ahead-dont complain when you loose.

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September 30, 2012 12:43:13 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ekko_Tek,
Wasn't carrier spamming an issue before Rebellion as well?

Very late game carriers used to be backbone of the fleet. Still, mixed fleet would beat pure carrier fleet at equal supply.Now carriers are pretty much the only way to go. Very early game not included.

 

Quoting ARESIV,
The major problem with drastically increasing the resarch requirement and cost of the Titans, most Titans will never get build.

 


If I need 16 labs and 30000 credits to build an Anklyon.. I am not building it.... it would not be worth the costs.
So implementation of this means Eradica and Ragnarov... all other titans wont get build...
there is also the issue that the game is often times already over when people reach that tech level

 

There are 2 options. Titans are either pretty weak and counterable but accessible early game, or more powerful but harder to get. As it is now, they are easily accessible and very powerful. Even worse, they gain too much power with level up and keep it once killed, making frigates pretty much titan food.

Making titans mostly fleet support ships would force you to fleet up first, then increase effectivity of your fleet by getting a titan. Not that it will happen, but I think it's most logical solution.

 

Quoting ZombiesRus5,
Un-nerf capital ships against titans (i.e. Add Titan in as a valid constraint anywhere a CapitalShip is for all abilities).

Ion-bolt, Phase out hull, Blackout, Detonate AM(disable)...

 

 

 

Primary strat right now is titan as anti-frig weapon+ carriers with mix of bombers and fighters. Caps would get raped by bomber swarms.

 

Quoting sareth01,
Yes you are right aries, yet this can be a good thing.

You see, titans are special units. too much "special" and the game might not feel so "special" after a while. I do believe this is occurring right now.

Getting a titan should cost a lot, and be a strain on the eco guy (if there is one).

Not every game should have a titan in it, as that gets rid of that "special" feelin'.

Replayability is the key, keeping that "special feelin" alive is key.

Also, requiring 8 military labs and more research isn't that over the top. Also, the devs could balance the less used titans by making them faster to acquire in the game, via requiring a little less resources and build time. The window might be somewhere in the area of 3-5 minutes of advantage getting your titan out first...perhaps.

Perhaps loyalist titans would be the ones that are a bit quicker into the field, yet all of them aren't "pure power" early game titans. Would be an interesting dynamic.

 

Yeah, pretty much my point. Balancing with casual SP player in mind might make game fun for first 10-20h, but after that even SP guy (hehe) discovers that game is simplistic and will lose interest. Balancing with MP in mind makes game harder and maybe less appealing in SP at first, but in the long run it has far more replay value. Less pew pew, more thinking.

 

 

Quoting RiddleKing,
These days, Zombie, Seleuc just jump on the troll wagon..

 then you have comments like this:


Quoting Ryat, reply 1Some players (like Dirty Sanchez and Seleuceia) are skilled players

 I mean wtf!

So just because you suckers can't handle a level 1 titan with 10 drone hosts then we have to suffer your unforgiving nerf requests?

 

Hows about you stop rushing for titans and rush to get eco up and blow your bomber counts off the roof.

 

So you ask for nerfs and get skill status? Goa or greg asked for flak nerf and now everybody thinks there pros.. i mean wtf is going on these days. Its nerf this, nerf that-wail spanked me, wail cockholded me? Rebel titan kissed my behind and shot it to pieaces? Who the F cares.

If You think you can survive with your frigates at a suicide spot then ahead-dont complain when you loose.

Bad

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September 30, 2012 4:22:28 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ZombiesRus5,
Un-nerf capital ships against titans (i.e. Add Titan in as a valid constraint anywhere a CapitalShip is for all abilities).

Ion-bolt, Phase out hull, Blackout, Detonate AM(disable)...

This I agree with.

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September 30, 2012 5:55:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Nerf all AoE hard

I could see this for certain ships but having strong AoEs in general has had one good effect. Capitalships are a lot more viable now late game than in diplo: now several hundred LRF aren't as big of a threat as a high level titan can counter them before they blow up your caps.

Nerf HP/armor increase with level

This could work well. And interesting idea would be to reduce these to very lower levels and buff the passive stat bonuses, so the player has to choose between titans with powerful abilities or good stats.

Titans should lose XP on death

Just losing one level on death could easily prevent cheese tactics of solo "titan raids" for XP, and if you have a huge firepower advantage you might be able to kill the titan before it levels up, you could in theory push a high level titan back down to lvl 1.

Titans should only be built on volc/ice/desert/terran planets designated as capital
Shift titan role from AoE/damage to buffing/debuffing fleets.

Meh, the first one doesn't seem like it really fixes the problem, the second would be very hard to do with certain titan as they are set up (the Ragnarov would need most of its abilities replaced). I think their are at least easier if not better ways to fix the problem.

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September 30, 2012 6:39:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting AseOfSpadez,
I would agree with many of the tenets stated here.

they need to lose exactly 1 level every time they die.

 

BS. They need to lose ALL their levels when they die, just like ANY OTHER CAPITAL SHIP. I would say keep them hard to kill, but if you do manage to kill them, they go right to the bottom of the scale and start over.

 

I mean isn't that the point of making something hard to kill, that it's a HUGE loss when you DO lose them and a huge Victory when the person killing it actually kills it.

I mean if you pop a titan that should be worth hella XP for all the ships involved in its destruction.

 

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September 30, 2012 6:49:04 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting AgentExeider,



BS. They need to lose ALL their levels when they die, just like ANY OTHER CAPITAL SHIP. I would say keep them hard to kill, but if you do manage to kill them, they go right to the bottom of the scale and start over.

 

Ironically that would just make titans more important in their current implementation in competitive games. Once titans reach mid levels, it would quickly turn into "the guy who loses the titan first loses", because the player who didn't lose his would be able to go back and repair it, plus get the extra XP of killing. And a lvl 1 titan versus a level 4+ titan is a no contest.

If titans were more like capitalships it could work, i.e. were mainly for support and you could build as many as you pleased. But that's not how they were designed. To do this now would just make all the multiplayer problems we have now worse. I realize for single player if you like epic long games the titans this sucks, but to change it to lose all levels would kill and already fragile multiplayer. The natural compromise is either to lose 1 level or a certain percentage of XP.

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September 30, 2012 6:54:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,

Quoting AgentExeider, reply 18


BS. They need to lose ALL their levels when they die, just like ANY OTHER CAPITAL SHIP. I would say keep them hard to kill, but if you do manage to kill them, they go right to the bottom of the scale and start over.

 

Ironically that would just make titans more important in their current implementation in competitive games. Once titans reach mid levels, it would quickly turn into "the guy who loses the titan first loses", because the player who didn't lose his would be able to go back and repair it, plus get the extra XP of killing. And a lvl 1 titan versus a level 4+ titan is a no contest.

If titans were more like capitalships it could work, i.e. were mainly for support and you could build as many as you pleased. But that's not how they were designed. To do this now would just make all the multiplayer problems we have now worse. I realize for single player if you like epic long games the titans this sucks, but to change it to lose all levels would kill and already fragile multiplayer. The natural compromise is either to lose 1 level or a certain percentage of XP.

 

no I would say, implement ALL of mecha lenin's ideas for fixes but admend the -1 level on loss to All of them. there is no reason it should keep those levels, the crew is DEAD, how the hell can a titan magically keep it's XP if the crew on board the new one is a completely different crew then on the old one, since the crew of the old one is DEAD.

 

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September 30, 2012 7:13:27 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

GoaFan77 already told you a good reason why Titans should keep levels: gameplay balance reasons.  A level 1 Titan stands zero chance against a level 4 Titan and the player with the level 1 Titan would never, ever be able to get back into a competitive stance.

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September 30, 2012 7:47:42 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting SpardaSon21,
GoaFan77 already told you a good reason why Titans should keep levels: gameplay balance reasons.  A level 1 Titan stands zero chance against a level 4 Titan and the player with the level 1 Titan would never, ever be able to get back into a competitive stance.

LOL modder trolls are so cute and clumsy.

 

I've said before and will repeat: Sins is not DoTA, frigates are not creeps. Intoducing such mechanics into 4XRTS is... well.. interesting.

Better leave it for Sins of a Dark Age.

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September 30, 2012 8:29:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You seem to think I'm endorsing the status quo.  I am not.  I would love it if Titans weren't one-off vessels that didn't massively gain power as they level.  I like the idea of a super-capital ship, but that's exactly what Titans should be: mass-producible super-capital ships that don't become ridiculously powerful as they level and don't keep levels on death.  Ironclad and Stardock made Titans the centerpieces of battles when they made Titans as powerful and limited in quantity as they are, not us modders.  I think us modders would love to change that if we could, but since we can't we just deal with how things are, not how we wish them to be.

Of course, since I'm a modder that means I automatically qualify as a troll to you, so you'll just completely ignore my post in favor of your preconceived notions.

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September 30, 2012 9:19:37 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

If you want to change that, just remove titans all together and add in another capital ship class that's more powerful and more expensive and takes longer to build.

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September 30, 2012 9:34:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm less and less convinced riddle actually plays against real people with each of his posts.

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September 30, 2012 9:54:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,

Quoting AgentExeider, reply 18


BS. They need to lose ALL their levels when they die, just like ANY OTHER CAPITAL SHIP. I would say keep them hard to kill, but if you do manage to kill them, they go right to the bottom of the scale and start over.

 

Ironically that would just make titans more important in their current implementation in competitive games. Once titans reach mid levels, it would quickly turn into "the guy who loses the titan first loses", because the player who didn't lose his would be able to go back and repair it, plus get the extra XP of killing. And a lvl 1 titan versus a level 4+ titan is a no contest.

If titans were more like capitalships it could work, i.e. were mainly for support and you could build as many as you pleased. But that's not how they were designed. To do this now would just make all the multiplayer problems we have now worse. I realize for single player if you like epic long games the titans this sucks, but to change it to lose all levels would kill and already fragile multiplayer. The natural compromise is either to lose 1 level or a certain percentage of XP.

So we are now balancing the game based on the five percent who play online?

Titans should lose their levels pure and simple, I remember people saying how Sins ran to long..now we have people saying if you lose your Titan, it isn't fair to the loser of such. People would have to learn to retreat, and the issue of feeding a Titan knowing that if you do lose it you will be right back to where you were will go away.

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