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SINS MP - Societal Standards

A New Players Guide to the Multiplayer Community

By on October 13, 2012 12:16:10 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Protoplazm

Join Date 02/2008
+30

Let's pretend for a moment that you are relatively new to the SINS Multiplayer scene, and you discover through your many hours of spectacular game induced auto-stimulation, that you enjoy it enough to commit to establishing a presence amongst what turns out to be a rather 'core group' of veteran players.

Further to this; lets say you are sharp enough to pick up on the adopted conventions of certain accepted standards in things like choosing teams, showing proper restraint of verbal diarrhea, etc.  Indeed, you end up demonstrating that you know how to take direction, are willing to "pay your dues", so to speak, and have the good sense to not display tendencies of applied Trollisim when it comes to online multiple personality disorder, or any of the many associated idiotic behaviors that have become pandemic to our community.

Now; given these highly parenthetical conditions, lets tip toe just a little further down the assumptive path and say that most players who've traveled along the way before you have not only been where you are, but are more than capable of recognizing newer players periods of incubation in their progress towards acceptance, into this somewhat 'self-aware' Multiplayer community.

Under these extremely far reaching and hypothetical circumstances, it would behoove those newer players who genuinely wanted to integrate themselves into the culture, to take stock of their motives and objectives, and accept as gospel these heretofore unwritten adopted conventions of accepted standards, that govern the actions of the majority of veteran players.

In what will surely be the lost cause of patron saints, I will now attempt to put to pen, or at the very least, begin a dialogue - in list form - of Sins "Dos & Don'ts".  Future editions could incorporate a list naming Violators to the don'ts sections (if allowed).

Contribute as is apropos in spirit and theme.

Edit: New Beta Guide by GoaFan77: This is an excellent guide for beginners and intermediates alike - Supah Kudohs to GoaFan77

Edit: Multiplayer Guide by Grimm: Here is what is quite possibly the most comprehensive, and clearly written guide ever!

In-Game Behavior



Do try to be courteous and respectful to those you are likely to interact with on a regular basis.  What comes around goes around, and your reputation will largely determine the type of treatment you receive.  It may take a while for your personality to acquiesce, but it will pay dividends in the long run.  

Don't prolong a game longer than necessary. Especially to the point of insisting the opposing team "Come and get me" even though you are ostensibly the last player left from your side.  It's generally accepted OK if you want to have one last "Grand Melee", but once it's clear that you're the last of the Mohicans, don't punish others because you think there is some merit to making a valiant last stand.  Even the most formidable of forces one player can field is overcome by attrition of 2-3-4 or more players to one.  Do yourself, and everyone else a favor and bow out so that those that want, may perhaps join another game.  We all realize how hard it is not to want to make that loudmouth asshat on the opposing team suffer for whatever reason, but show respect for the others as you will face them again, and you don't want to be that guy that griefed their way through a long drawn out ordeal causing brain damage to even the most intolerant villains, but everyone else in the process.  You will pay consequences in the long run if you do, and may in fact be intentionally excluded from games once your reputation precedes you.

Do suggested by Yarlen: Also; at the end of a game - if in fact most, if not all players on a team should agree it is obvious that they will not win, it is highly encouraged for all players on the losing team to agree not only to concede, but to surrender.  Surrenders are recorded as a loss, quits are recorded as drop-outs which won't look good if we [ICO] ever expose that info.  -- I don't know how big an 'elephant in the room' this is, but it does make sense.  Currently the consensus that games [played / victories] is the only "given".  Over 50% ratio is almost the benchmark, but if ICO decided to display 'non-drop-outs' in the future, a lot of players would "have some 'splainin to do!".


Do save replays!  Replays are your portals to untold riches in experience and understanding of the game.  No other single tool will escalate your learning curve faster than watching replays, especially if you start getting into games with players of progressively higher skill levels.  Scour the forums for replays posted by others.  There are some very enlightening tips and tricks you can learn from the birds eye view that replays afford. Daily replays & Feedback threads by ReD Ruby: Daily Replays & Feedback - these are great threads to get your feet wet with some replays, and critiques of your own games.  Although they may not get new replays "Daily", they still have active posting, and regular contributions.

Don't get a corncob up your rectum because someone gives you direction.  If you are bright enough, you will recognize coherent direction from loose cannon bloviation.  You will learn over time the players you need to pay attention to.  If you are in their games, it usually means they are taking a chance on you, and if they give you direction, it's because they need you to seriously consider what they are suggesting.  If you cant discern the difference between good game mechanics and poor strategy, then you are either too young, or too immature, or quite possibly both.  Listening is the greatest tool to development in this game.


(Need more in game behavior dos and don'ts here)



Hosting, Forming Games & Team Selection

Do try to be patient while getting games formed up.  When you enter a game lobby, go to "TEAM 10" and relax, the game will fill regardless if you are anxious or not.  Also, you will see most skilled players selecting "Random" as their race prior to forming teams because they generally wait to see what composition of races comprises the opposition in relation to those of their own.

Don't - jump into a game lobby and start advocating, "How bout a multi-star FFA?!" or, "What about we each get a 'Hard' AI and start?!"  No one likes incessant chattering of noobs that start "greening" in when there aren't even enough players to fill half the slots in a particular map, and talking about, "...can we just start, I'm ready to play".  Most games will be chosen in a PUG (Pick Up Game) format similar to playground style team selection. Two Captains will be determined, (by volunteering, or general consensus based on their regarded skill level), after which any "non-captain" will whisper to another "non-captain" a number between 1-10.  Both Captains will then each declare their guess of a number from 1-10, and the "winning" Captain will have the option of choosing first or second.  Captains evaluate the field of players, and predict their picking order based on the available top choices. Captains can then either pick first, if they think one standout player will afford them a strategic skill advantage, or choose to "defer", in order to assure two (2) picks that will immediately follow the opposing Captain who is obliged to choose first.  The picking order for a 5V5 is: 12221, with the "Fat Kids" chosen last.  A 4V4 picking order is: 1211  A 3V3 is: 121

Don't contributed By Ekko_Tek: Once a PUG team selection is underway you've tacitly joined the game, entered the lottery, accepted the captains.

Don't join the game lobby and then AFK for ages unless someone can message you on Steam and wake you up.

Don't bail once teams are divided and people start greening up unless your house is on fire!


Do try to populate your games with similar skill levels.  It's no fun if you have too wide a disparity in player experience/skills because team balance is difficult in most cases. suggested from Howthe: If a game says "Skilled" in the title, the general criteria is that you obviously aren't new, but also that at the very least, you can beat a single player game with a minimum of two (2) hard AI opponents.  Some hosts will have a different interpretation of the criteria, so it's best to be upfront and ask.  You don't want a lengthy wait in a game lobby to be an unwise investment of your time.  OP: It has been suggested that some "Skilled" games allow one non-veteran player on each side as an indoctrination into the community.  This would afford introductory exposure in-game for both the newer players, and the community at large.

Don't ignore common sense with respect to hosting a game.  If you are the host, you have a responsibility to run your lobby properly.  This means promoting the selection of Captains of near-as-possible-equal skills, getting the "numbers" out, and team selection underway ASAP.  No one likes the "meta-game" of "who's going to be Captain".  Establish a consensus early, and get the game off the ground while avoiding the whack-a-mole channel rodents that pop in and out.  Close a slot if you have to preserve the integrity of the lobby, and at the very least try marshaling the noobs and smurfs from turning your lobby into a fiasco of epic proportions.

Edit:

Do have game settings as follows:

"Faster" settings with "Fleet Size" Normal, "Pirates" inactive, & "Allied Victory" on.


(Need more hosting, forming games & team selection dos and don'ts here)



Getting the Most out of Replays

Do save the replay of your games - While in-game - for viewing later.  Here is a great how-to watch recorded games from Greg30007.  Also, here is a good Q&A reply on replaying tips from Darvin.

Do - contributed By Ekko_Tek: Choose one player to focus on. Something you want to learn or watch for specifically cause you want to play that race or use that starting cap ship. [remember that watching a pro replay is like watching artists paint several Masterpieces at the same time, if you get into one of these games, the replay could be worth more to you than a hundred games on your own, treat these like gold].

(Need more getting the most out of replays do's and don'ts here)



Your Role in Eco Position (No enemy on your flanks when starting the game)

Do: contibuted by Seleuceia: communicate with your teammates as much as possible...let them know when you can feed, how many people you are feeding, and ask who needs feed...always consider the possibility that you may need to fleet up or get a titan to contribute the most to your team, especially if you have multiple eco players....

Don't: contibuted by Seleuceia: assume your teammates are communicating with you properly or are putting your feed to good use...always keep on eye on your team (especially "unkown quantities") and make sure they aren't throwing away your feed...if they are, give them advice or direct your feed elsewhere...be careful about feeding suidicide players: if they don't have factories to produce units, no amount of feed is going to do much good....occasionally even exceptionally skilled players will not ask for feed when they need it, and in those cases you may need to feed them on your own initiative...

(Need more your role in eco position do's and don'ts here)



(Need other categories here)

Possibilities:

  1. (So you think you can turtle? - maximizing impact in the suicide spot)
  2. (Rushing - recognizing valid opportunities early)
  3. (Making the most of early Titans)
  4. (Proper build orders, your part in team strategy)
  5. (What to look for in a Veteran Player)
  6. (How to win allies and avoid trolldom)
  7. (You know your a troll when...)
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October 13, 2012 12:53:14 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

This is a great post, many new, and even established players should take stock in these words.

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October 13, 2012 1:27:01 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Nice post Slackah - I'll try and contribute some points later.

For now,

Team Selection Don'ts: Once a PUG team selection is underway you've tacitly joined the game, entered the lottery, accepted the captains. Don't bail once teams are divided and people start greening up unless your house is on fire.

Team Selection Dont's: Don't join the game lobby and then AFK for ages unless someone can message you on Steam and wake you up.

Getting the Most out of Replays:

Choose one player to focus on. Something you want to learn or watch for specifically cause you want to play that race or use that starting cap ship.

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October 13, 2012 2:18:49 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

(Your role in eco position)

DO communicate with your teammates as much as possible...let them know when you can feed, how many people you are feeding, and ask who needs feed...always consider the possibility that you may need to fleet up or get a titan to contribute the most to your team, especially if you have multiple eco players....

DON'T assume your teammates are communicating with you properly or are putting your feed to good use...always keep on eye on your team (especially "unkown quantities") and make sure they aren't throwing away your feed...if they are, give them advice or direct your feed elsewhere...be careful about feeding suidicide players: if they don't have factories to produce units, no amount of feed is going to do much good....occasionally even exceptionally skilled players will not ask for feed when they need it, and in those cases you may need to feed them on your own initiative...

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October 13, 2012 9:26:12 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

This is very awesome! I don't play very much competetive mp on ICO (mostly casual LAN with buds & beers) but I can appreciate and recognize that these things listed above are a good set of advice. 

 

Keep it up! I would personally be interested to see what people suggest for build orders in different situations.

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October 14, 2012 10:38:51 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@OP and Dev's

Please sticky this!

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October 15, 2012 12:03:25 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Added Ekko's and Sel's contribs.

Per Sareth, requested sticky.

Need more input, come on MP'rs!

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October 15, 2012 5:30:42 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Can you put somewhere that if the title of the game says Skilled, then you shouldn't join unless you do 2v1 hard AI.

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October 15, 2012 9:05:23 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Howdidudothat,
Can you put somewhere that if the title of the game says Skilled, then you shouldn't join unless you do 2v1 hard AI.
Done, - also occurred to me this is not rocket science - most will pick this stuff up quickly enough if they have the chops, but no amount of spelling it out will make a difference unless they want it.  Hopefully this can grease the wheels for them.

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October 15, 2012 10:40:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The bronies approve this message. Sticky please. 

-Lord Brony

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October 16, 2012 11:22:58 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Yarlen,

Done - thank you for writing that up.

In the section where you discuss prolonging games, could you encourage those folks to Surrender and not just quit out? Surrenders are recorded as a loss, quits are recorded as drop-outs which won't look good if we ever expose that info.

Thanks!

Yarlen

Edited as suggested.

Thx Yarlen! 

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October 16, 2012 1:35:19 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Do contributed By Yarlen: Also; if in fact, by all accounts it is obvious at the end of a game you will not win, it is highly encouraged for players on the losing team to agree not only to concede, but to surrender. Surrenders are recorded as a loss, quits are recorded as drop-outs which won't look good if we [ICO] ever expose that info. -- I don't know how big an 'elephant in the room' this is, but it does make sense. Currently the consensus that games [played / victories] is the only "given". Over 50% ratio is almost the benchmark, but if ICO decided to display 'non-drop-outs' in the future, a lot of players would "have some 'splainin to do!".

Now I may be wrong on this, but it is my understanding that surrenders cause the "replacement AI" to do nothing (while quits allow the AI to act as a "legit" substitute)...

I understand that in theory, if everyone quits then it shouldn't matter how players are replaced...in practice though what often happens is that one or two players think the game is over (they may or may not be right) and then just quit...in my experience there have been many times where a player quits cause they think their team has lost, but their team later won...if they had followed the above suggestion and surrendered then their team would have become even further handicapped by the quitter, potentially changing the outcome of the game....

I have most certainly been in this situation several times where a *certain* player "calls" the game and quits, but their team still ends up winning...of course, having a replacement AI (as opposed to a sitting duck) played a part in the victory...

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October 16, 2012 4:04:20 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Protoplazm,


In the section where you discuss prolonging games, could you encourage those folks to Surrender and not just quit out? Surrenders are recorded as a loss, quits are recorded as drop-outs which won't look good if we ever expose that info.

No offense to Yarlen but I disagree with this assessment. You should not be able to surrender from a locked team game IMO. If you want to leave the game and your team is still playing then you should quit.

I wouldn't mind the surrender option if it popped up a voting window that required the human players on the team to agree in majority thus ending the game. Basically surrender should be a team decision. Potential Multi-Player enhancement?

 

Also in relation to the surrender versus quit versus winners are the new Steam smurfs that...

These appear to be the new smurfs on steam based on my observation:

Plug pulling smurf - This smurf attempts to keep his record much lower than actual experience by "pulling the plug" prior to the game ending. This method is used to create several sub-smurfs:

  1. 0-0 smurf - This smurf attempts to create complete anonymity by keeping his stat count at zero while constantly changing his steam name and ICO name. This player tends to always play in steam offline mode.
  2. Noob smurf - This variation of the plug-pulling smurf keeps games played from increasing after reaching a certain count. Most likely well known to his friends, but still is able to upset the balance of team games.
  3. Perfect smurf - This variation of the plug-pulling smurf likes his e-peen to appear perfect and are typically well known players that don't deserve a near perfect record. Consequently this smurf will plug-pull from any games which would not result in a win.

Quitter smurf - This smurf surrenders from every game played resulting in records that look like 99 games, 0 wins, 99 losses or some variation of. These smurfs have the bad habit of surrendering from games early once "they" determine their team is not good enough to win.

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October 16, 2012 4:40:13 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It amazes me that in such a small small MP community/player base there are a lot that smurf (I would guess about 10%). I can sort of understand the ones who just change their name to be anonymous but don't touch their record and still play a game through properly. Anything other than that is moronic imo - why would anyone really care about their stats or record in this game? Winning is only partly related to skill for starters. Throw in team games, feed, random elements, mini-dumps, no ranked ladder play, AND SMURFING ITSELF, and you really have a playerbase that should not give a rats ass about their win/loss. People generally recognize skilled players by name and reputation, not by their win/loss - especially as an unknown name with a good win/loss could just have done a lot of compstomps. I guess the real motivation is just "for teh lulz".

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October 16, 2012 5:25:42 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think the most likely explanation other than the e-peen or perfect smurf is the pugging process.

Outside of stats and reputation there is nothing to go on to guage player skillset. A player that smurfs his stats or hides who he is can end up being on a team with the best players unbalancing teams. How many times have you captain'd a pug where you pick the known best player only to be whispered "hey I'm really good...".

Also players with lower stats are also less likely to be picked first which has it's advantages.

We really need a good system for tracking player skillset. Capturing stats for all games played (i.e. at game start to get rid of plug pulling). Stats for drops. Stats for quiting. Stats for surrender.

It would be nice if there was a ELO, or ladder with Ranked games versus non-ranked, but I'd take better stats at this point.

 

Basically, If you want to smurf make it where you have to give Stardock an extra $30 or $40 dollars each time.

 

 

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October 16, 2012 5:43:09 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ZombiesRus5,
Capturing stats for all games played (i.e. at game start to get rid of plug pulling).

My only concern with this is that MDs, desyncs, and freezes would count against you....if you MD, the game shouldn't even register as a game played, because there is no way to determine if that would have been a win, loss, or "quit" for you...

I for one MD every once in awhile, and when the dingleberries I live with start torreting shit, I can even freeze a game indefinitely via lag (fortunately a steam friend of mine was in each of those games and kindly told me to quit)...hell, I've even had lag so bad I couldn't click on the menu button...

Another concern....what if I want to save an MP game I'm playing with some friends, "quit", then come back and play it later...would not quitting now count that as a loss even though I didn't lose?  That just doesn't seem right...

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October 16, 2012 6:09:39 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ZombiesRus5,
I think the most likely explanation other than the e-peen or perfect smurf is the pugging process.

Yeah, the pugging process reason makes sense if you're just interested in stacking your team a bit for an easier win. The e-peen motivation is laughable though considering Sins MP. I can understand e-peen in a game with an actual competitive scene and elo ladder, tournaments, etc. but Sins MP just isn't that kind of srs bizness. I'm probably going against human nature a bit there though...

Anyway, I think the (now) stickied guide covers the smurfing topic pretty much already - it's unfortunately another chore for the host to police and make the call on for the most part.

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October 16, 2012 7:54:23 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
My only concern with this is that MDs, desyncs, and freezes would count against you

It doesn't count against you because...

Total games := ICO activity

Wins := Games where the other team quit before your team did

Losses := Games where you surrendered or died.

Quits := Games where you quit before the other team did

Drops/Mini-dumps := Total games - (wins + losses + quits)

 

If a new stat can't be added I'd rather them just combine quits and surrenders into the Losses stat. It's a pretty useless stat as it currently exists anyway.

Quoting Ekko_Tek,
but Sins MP just isn't that kind of srs bizness.

I figure their about my oldest kids age.

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October 16, 2012 8:26:20 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,

Do contributed By Yarlen: Also; if in fact, by all accounts it is obvious at the end of a game you will not win, it is highly encouraged for players on the losing team to agree not only to concede, but to surrender.

Now I may be wrong on this, but it is my understanding that surrenders cause the "replacement AI" to do nothing (while quits allow the AI to act as a "legit" substitute)...

I understand that in theory, if everyone quits then it shouldn't matter how players are replaced...in practice though what often happens is that one or two players think the game is over (they may or may not be right) and then just quit...in my experience there have been many times where a player quits cause they think their team has lost, but their team later won...if they had followed the above suggestion and surrendered then their team would have become even further handicapped by the quitter, potentially changing the outcome of the game....

I have most certainly been in this situation several times where a *certain* player "calls" the game and quits, but their team still ends up winning...of course, having a replacement AI (as opposed to a sitting duck) played a part in the victory...
Note highlighted portion.  This is of course is a discretionary situation at best, but in a perfect world, everyone would be above board and do the right thing.  Declaring your intentions to your team first is always preferred to just up and quitting whether you pull the plug or what.  I for one will stick around and do what I can for the cause if my mates so desire.  The idea here though is to promote fair play, but moreover, to avoid rotten behavior.  If you want to bow out, but not hamstring your remaining teammates by surrendering, that is understandable.  But always get your teammates blessing.  Especailly in suicide (which we still need some input on do's and don'ts) where your best efforts at making a difference devolves into a prolonging the inevitable scenario, it is a judgement call. But in any situation where one reasonably determines the odds of favorably overcoming forces against you, I don't see anything wrong with everyone declaring gg and subsequently surrendering *as long as everyone else remaining on the team agrees*.

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October 16, 2012 11:51:26 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I have to say, the dev's stickying this post is a good indicator that things are changing around these parts.

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October 18, 2012 1:18:21 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,
I have to say, the dev's stickying this post is a good indicator that things are changing around these parts.
Yes, and I only had to bribe the Dev's with promise not to reveal the smurf detector app yet.

But, seriously; the impact of write-ups like this is directly proportional to the support it gets from the community.  We all have different perspectives so please contribute if you think you have something that will further the effort, and by all means, promote it by referencing it to newer players. 

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November 16, 2012 10:16:25 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Been getting a lot of feedback as to multiplayers not contributing because they don't want to "give out their secrets".  I think this attitude is contrary to any true competitive players desire for better games. 

By embracing the less-skilled, and helping players improve, we will automatically expand and elevate the quality of gamesmanship, and the community as a whole.  This undoubtedly is the single most important aspect of any game community, but it is one that SoSE multiplayers seem to discount. 

I'm not sure if it's because they think the game is too demanding to further the quality of it's player base, or because they fear having to contend with more skilled players. 

We do have some "gunslingers", and some "alpha gamers", but in either case, one would hope those types would reconsider and help bolster the player base with at least some basic help to give them a leg up while acclimating to the community.

Speaking of alpha gamers, I did edit the "Do - save replays" section with a link to:

ReD RubY's "Daily Replays".

Also included ReD RubY's new:

"Feedback for new players".

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November 17, 2012 6:17:59 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think this is great.

 

Well...I do.

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December 27, 2012 6:21:19 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I don't think it's great. I think it's extremely elitist and way too 'hardcore'.

There are two main reasons I don't MP Sins: The first is I hate playing 4x speed, turning this otherwise almost turnbased game into a StarCraft'esque clickfest where DPS is more important than strategy. The second is having to play people taking the game so seriously they forget it's just that.

No, I'm sure you're courteous enough and just want to have a good time, but posts like this... is in fact too much.

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December 27, 2012 7:21:53 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Apheirox,
There are two main reasons I don't MP Sins: The first is I hate playing 4x speed, turning this otherwise almost turnbased game into a StarCraft'esque clickfest where DPS is more important than strategy. The second is having to play people taking the game so seriously they forget it's just that.
For the record; I don't believe by any stretch of the imagination this game could be considered a turn based game since the entire premise of the game revolves around Real Time interaction.  That interaction is far from the Zergfests you're referring to.  This post is for those that presume they want to join the MP community.  Largely because of it's competitive nature, the only way to excel in MP is to be prepared and know what to expect.  In all actuality, this post is in direct contravention of elitist attitudes because it attempts to offer direction and grease the wheels along the path to learning.

 

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December 27, 2012 10:15:41 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Apheirox,
I don't think it's great. I think it's extremely elitist and way too 'hardcore'.

There are two main reasons I don't MP Sins: The first is I hate playing 4x speed, turning this otherwise almost turnbased game into a StarCraft'esque clickfest where DPS is more important than strategy. The second is having to play people taking the game so seriously they forget it's just that.

No, I'm sure you're courteous enough and just want to have a good time, but posts like this... is in fact too much.

I think you mean APM, not DPS. DPS actually has more impact on the slower game speeds than the faster ones. It sort of surprises me that anyone could find issue with this thread in some way, shape, or form. I think your definition of game is very narrow too. There's no reason fun and skill and playing humans needs to be mutually exclusive. Part of the fun is learning and improving and playing at a higher level. It's like saying chess should only stay at some casual, basic level or else it's not "fun" anymore. No need to feel threatened by the fact that people play at a more sophisticated level than you - the AI softgloves/sandbox is always there to make you feel more competent after all.

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