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So how exactly are Vasari rebels over powered?

By on March 2, 2013 7:32:18 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Reice

Join Date 12/2012
0

I have only ever mained Vasari rebels and I really like them, and I get a lot of people complaining that they're OP. I don't mind the no jumping SB rule that is generally in play, but why is everyone still complaining?

I can kind of get how the jumping Starbase thing might be abused, but even so, you have to aquire level 8 civic tech and they weaken after consecutive jumps. I have hardly ever felt that it'd be necessary to get that upgrade, and when I have, it's only because I was sitting around with my economy rolling and I didn't want to ruin it with a fleet capacity upgrade. I have always just seen is as a convenient way to re-locate a starbase more then anything, thus when I'm told that I can't have this upgrade in a game, I doesn't bother or even affect me.

People complain about phase missiles, which I agree are powerful and allow you to more effectively pick off capital ships, but that's the kind of thing I signed up for when I selected this faction. I feel that it hurts a lot more when I lose Vasari ships than when I've played with other factions, and I feel it when I play against the other factions. When a TEC player starts spamming stuff me, he may take careless losses by blind assaults, but that's the kind of guerrilla stuff that Vasari are good at. If they couldn't do it, they'd have no momentum; they'd just have Marzas, massed corvettes and Cobalts running amok.

Also, I've read about Vasari being too strong against Advent, because phase missiles bypass the shields to hit the weak armor behind it. However, all that I've read only takes into account direct statistics.

I'm going to go slightly off topic to prove a point here: Now, before I bought Sins, I played Command & Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath on the Xbox, which was unbalanced and never got patched, because it was on the Xbox. Some of you may have played it already on whatever console, but the faction Scrin had an 'epic' unit (basically a titan) that could be escorted by these fast-healing bug-like things called 'corruptors' (each one capable of healing faster then damage could generally be done by another single unit), allowing it to chew up entire armies. The only way to kill these would have been to get behind the epic unit or use expensive powers on them. should the army have been able to actually take on the epic unit anyway, it could be instantly teleported back to base by the factions' commando unit, healed again by a bunch more of those corruptors and then put through a rinse and repeat cycle until it reached maximum rank (at this point, having double fire rate, nearly double firepower and armor, as well as passive self-healing). Everyone complained and it was the worst, cheesiest legitimate tactic there was, and it was so economically cheap to do that you could have a full supporting army with it; but there was a way to beat it, and that was to either foil the setup process, or cleverly anticipate it and use flanking tactics to disarm both the corruptors and commando back at it's base. At this point, the opponent could be defeated as straightforwardly as his own shitty plan came to fruition. The point is that OP tactics can be beaten, even when statistics might say otherwise, because statistics do not tell the whole story in an RTS.

I bet that the Advents' phase missile weakness can be countered, not directly, but with alternative tactics. If I am correct, Vasari tactics revolve around mobility, desperation, guerrilla tactics, and are most effective when the enemy is careless. Obviously being mobile and having powerful defenses, they have a lot of time to destroy a planet before actually being needed elsewhere, especially in the late game. I'm not going to argue and say that  there is an easy way to beat Vasari in the late, but if I have to dedicate my limited and currently immobile Vasari fleet to tasks that I can't run away from, and I can't set up, I'm going to be in trouble later on. Playing as Vasari, I've never felt that my entire fleet could be powerful enough to defend two sides of my empire; Plus, with strength in numbers being the general rule with any RTS, I can't really afford to split my precious fleet.

TEC and Advent have motherships with fleet-supporting abilities. With these, you might be able to rush past the early Vasari front and attempt to colonize a stray planet beside them. By having ship production on this planet as well as a supportive mothership, you could have a sort of pseudo-mobility where their attack is anticipated and the ships you're going to retaliate with are being produced on the scene, and are readily supported. The key difference is that you're spending resources where they can't, and your threat has denied them preparation. from then on. If they ignore the planet, they either have to spend a lot of resources setting up defense around it or you are from then on the system is as accessible to you as it is to them. If they destroy it, it still costs them the time that they need to be defending their set-up.

Of course, I'm not sure that any of this could actually be done, but having played the game for a good few months and having gotten a feel for it AND actually playing as Vasari Rebels, I think I have some understanding of their strengths and weaknesses.

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March 2, 2013 8:42:43 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I can kind of get how the jumping Starbase thing might be abused, but even so, you have to aquire level 8 civic tech and they weaken after consecutive jumps.

It's actually very easy to get any tech in the game in under a half hour, if it is good enough to justify it. Instantly turning all your starbases into spaceships is obviously a very good thing.

convenient way to re-locate a starbase more then anything

You're not using it right.   Even without that tech, Vasari players often build starbases in hostile gravity wells because the are such good weapon platforms. Being able to send an already built and fully upgraded starbase in a hostile gravity well is a huge advantage.

The real reason they have to be banned though is that Starbases use no fleet supply. When starbases are more or less only defensive its not a big deal, but once you can make them offensive and jump capable, some players abuse this to hardly research fleet supply upgrades (allowing them to have little or no fleet upkeep) and just build starbase after starbase and send them to every planet on the map. And if you destroy a starbase, they probably have a new one ready to replace it.

If I am correct, Vasari tactics revolve around mobility

Strategic mobility certainly, but tactical mobility is really kind of limited in Sins. And the most powerful unit late game are bomber swarms, which are both immune to most weapons, impossible for anything bigger to outrun, and use phase missiles in the Vasari's case. They are already by far the best unit type, yet for some reason the Rebels got another phase missile research in Rebellion.

Phase stabilizers and the VL titan's micro phase jump are huge advantages, but I think you're overestimating its importance. The disadvantage the Vasari have with less efficient combat units only lasts very early game, and the strong Vasari capitalships and early access to starbases largely cancel out that weakness.

TEC and Advent have motherships with fleet-supporting abilities.

The Vasari have a colony capitalship too you know. And the Jarrasul is arguable better in combat than the other two races'.

 

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March 2, 2013 9:36:28 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,


It's actually very easy to get any tech in the game in under a half hour, if it is good enough to justify it. Instantly turning all your starbases into spaceships is obviously a very good thing.

...


You're not using it right.   Even without that tech, Vasari players often build starbases in hostile gravity wells because the are such good weapon platforms. Being able to send an already built and fully upgraded starbase in a hostile gravity well is a huge advantage.

The real reason they have to be banned though is that Starbases use no fleet supply. When starbases are more or less only defensive its not a big deal, but once you can make them offensive and jump capable, some players abuse this to hardly research fleet supply upgrades (allowing them to have little or no fleet upkeep) and just build starbase after starbase and send them to every planet on the map. And if you destroy a starbase, they probably have a new one ready to replace it.

...

Strategic mobility certainly, but tactical mobility is really kind of limited in Sins. And the most powerful unit late game are bomber swarms, which are both immune to most weapons, impossible for anything bigger to outrun, and use phase missiles in the Vasari's case. They are already by far the best unit type, yet for some reason the Rebels got another phase missile research in Rebellion.

Phase stabilizers and the VL titan's micro phase jump are huge advantages, but I think you're overestimating its importance. The disadvantage the Vasari have with less efficient combat units only lasts very early game, and the strong Vasari capitalships and early access to starbases largely cancel out that weakness.

...

The Vasari have a colony capitalship too you know. And the Jarrasul is arguable better in combat than the other two races'.

 

I get that starbases are powerful and that they take up no fleet supply. Trouble is, wouldn't that reliance on Starbases then become a weakness in itself? TEC has Orgovs and bombers while Advent just have even more bombers. Plus, the weakening after the phase jump combined with your home advantage and the fact that if it has to retreat, you have an even greater opportunity to take down the enemy planet could potentially put the battle in your favor. Plus, you can't support a starbase with another starbase. If they get it that early anyway, you know that they've invested heavily into this particular strategy and you can set about de-railing it. Without sufficient fleet, they'll have hardly anything capable of countering bombers, and with all of the starbase investments, their military or economy, or both, will be weak, aside from the low fleet cost.

And sure, they can support with Sentinels and Overseers, but bombers kill those, too. And if they deploy strike craft, you can build flak and also build fighters. They're basically forcing you to mass strike craft, which I don't think that Vasari has anything to AoE counter with, apart from Kortul's weapon jammer and phasic trap on home turf.

I get the mobility thing, too. I was mostly referring to phase stabilizers, gravity tolerance, phase detection (increasing response time), the Marauder and all of the abilities that they generally use to screw with enemy phase jumps. If you can park up closer to the accessible parts of their empire and increase the number ways in and out of their gravity wells, there's no way that they're gonna be able to afford to rely on starbases for defense or even offense if you have forces which can actually take planets.

How much is a fully upgraded starbase, exactly?

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March 2, 2013 10:07:43 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Reice,
I get that starbases are powerful and that they take up no fleet supply. Trouble is, wouldn't that reliance on Starbases then become a weakness in itself? TEC has Orgovs and bombers while Advent just have even more bombers.

The only way to efficiently deal with orkies is with A LOT of bombers. Which means you need to have a very large fleet before you start getting orky spammed. Which means you're already likely losing 30-50% of your income to fleet upkeep to maintain that. If your opponent only has fleet upkeep of 0-19%, that gives him a huge economic advantage. And while you're dealing with orkies on your planets, you're not going to be on the offensive, reinforcing the VRs economic advantage. Which just lets them build more starbases or a fleet of their own, in which case its probably game over.

Quoting Reice,
Plus, you can't support a starbase with another starbase.

Doesn't matter, just make sure you have another starbase at the next planet over to send in as soon as it is destroyed. You can keep an enemy forever on the defensive that way, and you can't protect all of your planets simultaneously.

Quoting Reice,
If they get it that early anyway, you know that they've invested heavily into this particular strategy and you can set about de-railing it

Yes, there is a small window where they are vulnerable. But most games in Sins are team games, if a VR player can rely on his allies to cover him, it can be impossible to prevent them from getting starbase mobilization online. Not to mention that his friends have fleets to support the starbases with.

Quoting Reice,
Without sufficient fleet, they'll have hardly anything capable of countering bombers, and with all of the starbase investments, their military or economy, or both, will be weak, aside from the low fleet cost.

Two problems. 1. if you're suggesting your carriers can just bypass the starbases to attack the VR directly, keep in mind jumping away from a planet with an enemy starbases damages your ships and depletes all antimatter. No antimatter means your carriers can't rebuild strikecraft.

Second, starbase hangar upgrades allows them to field fighters, which can make carriers impossible to use offensively if they have enough starbase to cover their own worlds as well. Not to mention Vasari hangar bays with phasic traps make using strikecraft offensively against Vasari very difficult.

Quoting Reice,
And sure, they can support with Sentinels and Overseers, but bombers kill those, too. And if they deploy strike craft, you can build flak and also build fighters. They're basically forcing you to mass strike craft, which I don't think that Vasari has anything to AoE counter with, apart from Kortul's weapon jammer and phasic trap on home turf.

Again, even if you mass strikecraft to deal with one Orky, they can just send several more starbases to your other planets. Eventually they'll destroy your infrastructure because your fleet cannot cover them all at once. Even at max fleet supply, yo can not deal with more than a handful of orkies at once without taking substancial losses of some sort.

Yes, you can come up with theoretical weakness to everything. But the simple fact is Starbase spamming is so cost effective that it costs far more to counter it than to deploy it. And the fact that it allows the user to get a better economy from lack of fleet upkeep means there is very little you can do once you start facing it. This is literally as close to an I win button there is in Sins.

Quoting Reice,
I get the mobility thing, too. I was mostly referring to phase stabilizers, gravity tolerance, phase detection (increasing response time), the Marauder and all of the abilities that they generally use to screw with enemy phase jumps. If you can park up closer to the accessible parts of their empire and increase the number ways in and out of their gravity wells, there's no way that they're gonna be able to afford to rely on starbases for defense or even offense if you have forces which can actually take planets.

Marauders and gravity tolerance is generally crap. Phase Stabilizers and Kostura's are huge. System wide phase detection is very nice but rarely vital. It does improve Vasari reaction time but again, that's just another Vasari advantage. Only another Vasari player can use those things. And if the VR player can use all those things to improve the mobility of their starbases, so they can just warp their starbases back home if you somehow get in a position to attack them (heck, you should always have 1 starbase in your home turf as a VR).

 

I'm sorry Reice, but it really sounds like you have never seen this strategy used to its fullest. Most people have not, because the AI in Sins never uses it. But go online, and if you're ever unlucky enough to play a game where a good player is VR, I think you'll realize just how powerful they are. 

 

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March 3, 2013 3:50:47 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I played a 5's game where all was allowed. I was in between 4 enemy players. I was holding my own against the player on the left of me. Then an Upgraded Orkulus with about 16K HP came along supported by a bunch of vettes within about 20 minutes from the player to the right and joined forces with the player to the left of me. There was nothing I could do but run; those Orkies seem OP. Is there even a way to counter them particularly when supported by a decent force that early in game?

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March 3, 2013 5:04:24 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I was playing a 5s with some experience players last night.  HowThe?[DT] had about half of the map controlled and was carrying our team pretty much solo with the heavy use of VR roving starbases (this was a no rules game).  It definitly showed me the power of these things.  I then went on to play my 1v1 tournament game and lost to the strategy of building orkulus's in all of my planets gravity wells... I'm sure that can be countered, but it wasn't easy for me!

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March 3, 2013 3:49:13 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,


I'm sorry Reice, but it really sounds like you have never seen this strategy used to its fullest. Most people have not, because the AI in Sins never uses it. But go online, and if you're ever unlucky enough to play a game where a good player is VR, I think you'll realize just how powerful they are. 

 

You're right, I've never seen this being done. I suppose if the VR gets feed, it puts him in a very good position to do this. Until a fix, I'm happy not to use jumping starbases.

However, are you saying that in a battle without any input from the main fleet of either side, a fully-upgraded Orkulus could jump into an enemy gravity well and take down their own fully-upgraded starbase, along with their other defenses?

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March 4, 2013 8:53:14 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

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March 4, 2013 8:53:44 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

And to answer your question, yes.  Easily.

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March 4, 2013 7:55:14 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Would be good for mobile starbases to use fleet supply. I support that idea fully.

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March 4, 2013 9:47:56 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

They won't be any balance in team games so long as 1 race can field multiple titans. It doesn't matter whether u give them fleet supply or make them more expensive because one player will always be fed enough to use them.

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March 5, 2013 9:01:29 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Im not saying fleet supply should be the sole thing to balance it, but it'll go along way. at the moment a VR player can have virtualy unlimited mobile starbases and no fleet supply upgrades meaning they get full income with no upkeep tax.

 

making mobile starbases cost fleet supply limits their total and means you need to upgrade fleet supply to field more.

I'm also of the opinion that starbase mobility should be an upgrade meaning more limitations on it (less upgrade room for weapons and armour)

 

its a cool idea and tech that needs better restrictions and balance

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March 5, 2013 10:37:59 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

iron clad should revisit there starbase designs and consider giving each faction a unique starbase

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March 5, 2013 10:59:11 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I didn't read most of this thread cause I assume it's the usual arguments.  Let me just make public that I am bringing the nerf hammer to the Vasari Rebel starbase issue in the next update.  I'm tired of dealing with this issue - it's a major thorn. So I'm pulling the trigger on an idea some of our internal testers had which should settle things.

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March 5, 2013 11:25:01 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

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March 5, 2013 11:35:51 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You know Yarlen, a bit of discussion on why some of the ideas that people that actually play the game competitively online have are NOT what SD wants to do would be great.  It's easy to feel ignored and dismissed sometimes when no reasoning behind skipping ideas A, B, and C to go straight to D (that no one has even suggested on these forums) is given.

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March 5, 2013 11:50:01 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Mr_Book,

You know Yarlen, a bit of discussion on why some of the ideas that people that actually play the game competitively online have are NOT what SD wants to do would be great.  It's easy to feel ignored and dismissed sometimes when no reasoning behind skipping ideas A, B, and C to go straight to D (that no one has even suggested on these forums) is given.

 

just be happy that their nerfing the extra titans

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March 5, 2013 12:11:22 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I am happy that a nerf is coming, but if it's a nerf like what they did to SttC they will effectively remove jumping starbases from the game entirely instead of tuning them into a tool for VR players to use that doesn't unfairly offset the balance of the game.

This is why discussion would be helpful.

 

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March 5, 2013 2:08:10 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

you know how when you jump stuff away from a starbase you lose 30% and all antimatter?  It would be great if that happened to a vasari rebel starbase whenever it jumped.  Like, opposite of normal.  

And it would be really great if the tec starbase cost 30 fleet, advent 25, and vasari 35 (with jumping starbases 50).

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March 5, 2013 7:02:36 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Mr_Book,
but if it's a nerf like what they did to SttC

Strip to the core is balanced now. I fail to see why you think it is over nerfed. In it's current state it is still one of the most powerful Rebellion features added to the game. It's no longer abused though which is a good thing.

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March 5, 2013 7:21:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ZombiesRus5,


Quoting Mr_Book, reply 17but if it's a nerf like what they did to SttC

Strip to the core is balanced now. I fail to see why you think it is over nerfed. In it's current state it is still one of the most powerful Rebellion features added to the game. It's no longer abused though which is a good thing.

 

Agreed.

 

It is still a murderous denial weapon.... as you are the only faction that can more or less permanently deny an enemy a planet.

 

Add Vasari unrivaled mobiliy and Kostura cannon and you can dish out some serious pain.

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March 5, 2013 9:46:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Mr_Book,

I am happy that a nerf is coming, but if it's a nerf like what they did to SttC they will effectively remove jumping starbases from the game entirely instead of tuning them into a tool for VR players to use that doesn't unfairly offset the balance of the game.

This is why discussion would be helpful.

 

You don't know this..

They will probably remove all upgrades as soon as the base jumps and then restart them after a few minutes..each upgrade taking the time to upgrade itself one at the time as originally done.

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March 6, 2013 8:16:53 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ZombiesRus5,


Quoting Mr_Book, reply 17but if it's a nerf like what they did to SttC

Strip to the core is balanced now. I fail to see why you think it is over nerfed. In it's current state it is still one of the most powerful Rebellion features added to the game. It's no longer abused though which is a good thing.

 

In theory, perhaps.  In practice, it is never used in skilled 5s games.  Ever.  I call that nerfed into disuse.

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March 6, 2013 9:38:45 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Mr_Book,


Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 19

Quoting Mr_Book, reply 17but if it's a nerf like what they did to SttC

Strip to the core is balanced now. I fail to see why you think it is over nerfed. In it's current state it is still one of the most powerful Rebellion features added to the game. It's no longer abused though which is a good thing.

 

In theory, perhaps.  In practice, it is never used in skilled 5s games.  Ever.  I call that nerfed into disuse.

 

 

 

I have seen it maybe 5+ times in last 50-75 games. ( 5s - 5s skilled.) I think its also partly to the fact that the faction isnt as widely used as others ( thank god!) and the tech only useful ocasionally. In my opinion, whether im right or wrong, its fine as it is.

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March 6, 2013 9:42:15 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Mr_Book,
In theory, perhaps.  In practice, it is never used in skilled 5s games.  Ever.  I call that nerfed into disuse.

It is used in FFA, 2v2, 3v3's and was used for quite some time in 5v5's even after the nerfs. The prevailing strategy now is for a VL player to get their Titan out as quick as possible and start leveling towards maw. I don't call that nerfed into disuse.

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March 6, 2013 12:45:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I have been quite busy recently so I had not really time for a lengthy answer to some posts here:

 

People complain about phase missiles, which I agree are powerful and allow you to more effectively pick off capital ships, but that's the kind of thing I signed up for when I selected this faction. I feel that it hurts a lot more when I lose Vasari ships than when I've played with other factions, and I feel it when I play against the other factions. When a TEC player starts spamming stuff me, he may take careless losses by blind assaults, but that's the kind of guerrilla stuff that Vasari are good at. If they couldn't do it, they'd have no momentum; they'd just have Marzas, massed corvettes and Cobalts running amok. [/quote]

 

You are wrong.

1.  The phase missiles research is the most cost effective and most powerfull weapon upgrade in the game. It makes all other weapon upgrades look downright worthless. Most people dont research weapon upgrades until quite late in the game in MP.... but phase missiles are usually researched quite quickly... because they are worth every single credit.

Your feeling about Vasari being hurt most by ship losses is incorrect too:

 

Economic power rating:

1. TEC

2. Vasari

3. Advent

Military late game power rating:

1. Vasari

2. Advent

3. TEC

 

And this is one of the many reasons the Vasari faction is generally overpowered, even if you leave aside their most OP toys.

 

Vasari have the second best economy... but a military that is quite capable of decimating both TEC and Advent fleets with ease.

 

TEC may have a slightly better economy.... but TEC is going to face heavy casualties and so they need every single credit more they have.

 

Advent stood no change in late game against Vasari..... not only the Vasari fleet is considerable more powerfull (mostly due to phase missiles) but the Vasari can actually easily trade 150 ships of his against 100 advent ships and still win the war.

 

Because Vasari economy is a lot better than Advent economy.

 

 

As compensation for their poor economy Advent would need to inflict a loss ratio of 2 to 1 against the Vasari... (2 Vasari ships for 1 Advent ship).

 

The reality right now is 3 to 1...... for the Vasari (again, mostly due to Phase missiles)

 

Advent relying heavily on synergies cannot afford to have their capital ships and titan being phase missiled snipped within 30 seconds.... and that is the first battle.... in the next your at best level 4 advent capitalships are facing Vasari level 5 and 6 capital ships..... enjoy your execution.

 

For long term balancing Vasari need to either loose their 1. place and military to the Advent or have to have their economy reduced to rank 3.

 

It should be like:

 

Military ranking:

1. Advent

2. Vasari

3. TEC

 

Economic ranking:

1. TEC

2. Vasari

3. Advent

 

If this is not done, the faction will stay inherently overpowered... an faction having the second best economy and the best military will always prevail against a faction that has the worst economy and the second best military.

 

A major phase missile nerf would go a long way into making the Vasari military second to the Advent.

 

 

 

I bet that the Advents' phase missile weakness can be countered, not directly, but with alternative tactics. If I am correct, Vasari tactics revolve around mobility, desperation, guerrilla tactics, and are most effective when the enemy is careless. Obviously being mobile and having powerful defenses, they have a lot of time to destroy a planet before actually being needed elsewhere, especially in the late game. I'm not going to argue and say that there is an easy way to beat Vasari in the late, but if I have to dedicate my limited and currently immobile Vasari fleet to tasks that I can't run away from, and I can't set up, I'm going to be in trouble later on. Playing as Vasari, I've never felt that my entire fleet could be powerful enough to defend two sides of my empire; Plus, with strength in numbers being the general rule with any RTS, I can't really afford to split my precious fleet.[/quote]

Actually it can only be soft countered, which means that instead of dying within 10 seconds your ships die within 13 seconds... not very helpful.

 

Much more importantly.... phase missiles CANNOT be countered COST EFFECTIVE. An Advent would need 2 or 3 times the fleet to stand a reasonable chance.... just regretable that Advent economy is easily 30 % below Vasari economy.

 

TEC vs Advent is more balanced, because while TEC takes heavy losses, they can afford a loss ratio of 2 : 1.... Advent on the other hand cannot afford even 1 : 1 losses against a Vasari.

For Advent being competive against Vasari they need to destroy 2 Vasari ships for one Advent ship.... otherwise the superior Vasari economy alone in time will simple steamroll them.

 

 

The Vasari fleet can outrun any other faction fleet with ease... with or without Kostura. Add phase stabilizers and the Vasari fleet can be ANYWHERE on the map within 30 seconds.... you can nuke the enemy capital and then strip it while his 8 jump away fleet (protecting his borders) is desperatly trying to catch you.

 

When his fleet finally arrives the planet is long gone and the Vasari is free to run... or to destroy your fleet at will.

 

The Orkulus starbase with a bit of support can easily  hold the line while your fleet is ravaging the enemies empire. And if it really gets nasty.... a quick jump back will crush any and all assaults. 2 minutes later the enemy fleet is destroyed.... and your fleet returns to ravage their planets.... ragequitting usually at latest happens here.

 

 

Vasari ships are mostly supporting themselves, meaning that a fleet split wont hurt them half as much as the Advent.

 

 

Quoting GoaFan77,
The disadvantage the Vasari have with less efficient combat units only lasts very early game, and the strong Vasari capitalships and early access to starbases largely cancel out that weakness.

 

QFT

 

 

Quoting GoaFan77,
The Vasari have a colony capitalship too you know. And the Jarrasul is arguable better in combat than the other two races'.

 

Actually it is. Nano Disassembler FTW..... Progentitor shield restore doesnt help much in early game where it counts and later it is worthless against phase missiles. The Akkan is a quite durable ship and Ion bolt is nice.... but it pales in comparsion to Nano Disassembler and the mighty Kortul.

 

 

 

Quoting Reice,
I get that starbases are powerful and that they take up no fleet supply. Trouble is, wouldn't that reliance on Starbases then become a weakness in itself? TEC has Orgovs and bombers while Advent just have even more bombers. Plus, the weakening after the phase jump combined with your home advantage and the fact that if it has to retreat, you have an even greater opportunity to take down the enemy planet could potentially put the battle in your favor. Plus, you can't support a starbase with another starbase. If they get it that early anyway, you know that they've invested heavily into this particular strategy and you can set about de-railing it. Without sufficient fleet, they'll have hardly anything capable of countering bombers, and with all of the starbase investments, their military or economy, or both, will be weak, aside from the low fleet cost.

 

The problem is that an Orky even with only a meager supporting fleet is quite capable of destroying anything you can field at this stage of the game. In any case, any possible counter will easily cost 2 or 3 times the resources of the orkolus... making this a skill less and very cheap tactic as the is very little risk for a possible huge reward.

 

Bombers while dominating the late game are very poor against early game ships, so somebody investing to much in expensive carriers can just be steamrolled without Orky help.

 

[quote who="GoaFan77" reply="3" id="3326177"]Yes, there is a small window where they are vulnerable. But most games in Sins are team games, if a VR player can rely on his allies to cover him, it can be impossible to prevent them from getting starbase mobilization online. Not to mention that his friends have fleets to support the starbases with.

From FFA experience I have to say that if he happens to be just a bit away from the main action even a single Vasari player can become a murderous threat that you need 2 people of similar skill level just to contain and 3 to actually defeat. Actually playing Vasari in FFA games often tends to lead to your untimely demise as nobody of the other players have any intention to allow to to survive until late game.

 

[quote who="Mr_Book" reply="22" id="3327480"]

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 19

Quoting Mr_Book, reply 17but if it's a nerf like what they did to SttC

Strip to the core is balanced now. I fail to see why you think it is over nerfed. In it's current state it is still one of the most powerful Rebellion features added to the game. It's no longer abused though which is a good thing.

 

In theory, perhaps.  In practice, it is never used in skilled 5s games.  Ever.  I call that nerfed into disuse.

 

5vs games are certainly the community favourite but they are by no means the only MP games being played.

 

Not to mention that as others have pointed out in this topic, as long as you have more powerful toys at your disposal those get used first.

 

I really think that once the Vasari faction itself has been nerfed down to normal levels that more other strategies become more useful.

 

Nobody complained about Maw and Desperation... until more severe balancing things were fixed. This is only the natural way things are happening. 

 

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