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Advanced Multiplayer Tactics?

By on July 3, 2013 10:30:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

56ktarget

Join Date 07/2013
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What are the advanced tactics in this game? I already know all of the basic/intermediate ones, like turret expanding, killing constructors, not attacking sb with vettes, etc. I am of intermediate skill (can play eco/frontliner well), so advice like "build MOAR Ships!" is not helpful. What I'm asking for are the so called "trade secrets" that every multiplayer game seems to have, such as the fact that apparently skirmishers and cobalts are way more effective at killing a starbase than disciples.

 

Any help is appreciated! 

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July 4, 2013 2:29:29 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Disciples are good at killing structures.

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July 4, 2013 2:37:38 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I am afraid that falls into the "not helpful" category...

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July 4, 2013 5:22:30 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

such as the fact that apparently skirmishers and cobalts are way more effective at killing a starbase than disciples.

That's not a trade secret....that's a myth....some skilled players continue to spread this lie but testing has shown that all 3 factions can LF spam and stop any Orky rush dead cold provided they fleet ASAP and hit it when it starts building...

I would argue Advent actually have an advantage over TEC...their disciples have more DPS per fleet supply than cobalts and while the marza may help kill the SB faster, the progenitor keeps your LFs alive better plus it has SC (bombers if you choose) to begin with while marza doesn't...

Vasari is the most technical faction as they have a lot of tricks in the bag...you have a lot of strategies with minelayers, placing mines in large fleets and hoping they prime before getting killed...old days people used subverters to lock fleets down while mines were laid but that's not common anymore...

Using Orkies to rush is an art that requires a lot of practice...overseers are a must mid and late game...early game, bombing out and colonizing the planet with the egg is important since SBs build faster in friendly territory (even neutral is better than enemy)...skirantra with repair cloud ain't bad either, though it ain't as useful as an egg in general so better to orky rush with egg....

Repulsion tactics with Advent are important though not crucial...probably single best counter to protect your carriers from the VL titan...desperation is a passive so you can't really block it with disruption matrix or AM depleting non sense....

Knowing how to counter Marza's missile barrage is important....ion bolt on akkan works wonders (armistice is nice too), also you can use prog's shield regeneration but that requires intense micro and some luck....wouldn't try it unless you have at least shield regeneration lvl 3....

Mass disorientation is awesome for trapping corvette fleets or an annoying titan....red button is pretty much standard on all TEC SBs save maybe one saving a suicide's HW....lot of players don't use it but I highly recommend always considering phase stabilizer on your Orkies, it does wonders when you really need it and it's only one slot (this is more of a mid-late game thing)...ain't a bad idea to put one orky with PS on friendly HWs when you are eco and you know some enemy VL is going to be kostura jumping to someone's HW...

If you are doing the whole VL fleet of doom thing, you have to have an egg for colonizing (gravity warhead and drain planet are nice too)....you need a skirantra with repair, you need a marauder so you can eventually get it to lvl 6...everything else should be kortuls with jam weapons and disruptive strikes (if you get enough caps you can double up on egg and marauder in case you lose one)...it is worth paying to upgrade your kortuls....

Do NOT underestimate fighter spam in the late game....if you have good titan AoEs (or a marza with MB), then your enemy cannot field flak spam (likewise, you probably can't either) and thus fighters are your absolute best counter to corvettes...plus, you can always swap for bombers if the situation demands it...50/50 on fighters and bombers also works, and of course always defer to corvette spam if your enemy has too many kols, halcyons, or kortuls of mid-high level....fighters when in high enough numbers still can kill caps, titans, and SBs...basically, you go fighters when the enemy has lots of corvettes, otherwise probably bombers (some argue using bombers to kill carriers is superior to using fighters to counter bombers)...

Some viable civ lab starts if you are on the frontline....advent can rush culture, put a civ lab on your HW, 2nd civ lab on moon or roid, scrap capital ship factory, and put culture on HW...you probably can get away with it if your opponent doesn't rush LRFs and isn't too close (this strategy is less viable these days since people start with 2 frigate factories)...you can do one civ lab and one mil lab as TEC start, get modular architecture ASAP to reduce cost of extractors and factories...pays off quite quickly if you are in a 2s or 3s, or a roomy map (like a huge with only 8 players)...

If you are TEC eco, use your techs....you have modular architecture, you have a tier 4 tech that reduces cost of civ slot upgrades...you have development mandate, you have pervasive economy...GET THOSE TECHS...they will easily pay for themselves...don't forget to social specialize your HW all the way, and probably any terrans or oceanics within a few jumps of your HW...try to put all your labs and culture centers on the planets you do social specialization, don't spread your labs out if you are eco....

Of course if you are TR eco then you got TAR....rush TAR if you have 2 ecos on your team or are really confident in your frontliners and have no suicide...if you are only eco and you have a suicide or a wishy washy frontliner, don't TAR because it will hurt your ability to feed early (you can always TAR in the mid-game)....

As eco, it can work to build 2 colony caps...if you have lots of high militia planets, it may be worth it, but if you got lots of easy grab planets don't bother, just rush center of map....obviously not necessary if you TAR...

Oh, and for the love of god don't rush a titan while on frontline....

 

 

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July 4, 2013 10:11:38 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Nice post although you are wrong on the first paragraph and TAR thing. Even more useless since DLC. Since we last disucssed it online i have tested in a double ECO 5s game. We had a skilled player as first ECO mass expanding across the galaxy and i was 2nd ECO prioritising fast trade and planet optimizations. End result i had half the planets, fed 150k more, bigger fleet and bigger income across the whole game. Its not proof or anything but im convinced that since the DLC expansion and ECO play has considerably changed.

As for the first thing im not going to try to prove it again and a lot of players seem to misunderstand it. I could hold my own after 5 games (+2 vs AI) on ICO using that "lie/myth" since i learned it from a live stream game including doci, auqia, star etc back then.

Sins is a game with low skill cap, there is no insane korean 400 APM micro involved or ability to micro management several bases and stay completely in the zone ( starcraft 2 etc..). Best players on ICO gain advantage by knowing the game mechanics and less obvious things that require understanding of some of the less used research and game features.

You missed an obvious one seleu: you can use scouts to help colonize bigger and better defended planets. Also never rush an orky on enemy hw first thing unless your opponent is of a much lower skill than you.

 

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July 4, 2013 10:17:36 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yes the DLC specialization had made it so that you can get a lot more with less planets. So even secondary eco players later on can pump out a ton of resources. No longer is it that one Economy player that feeds and sustains the entire team.

Usually when I rush colonize high defense. I just rush to kill LRMs and Siege frigates (maybe just siege if you're willing to to pay extra for another turret near LRMs). I suppose you can use scouts to do the job if have a good number of them. Don't even bother with the cruisers or LFs. Colonize, place a few turrets, and run out to the next planet.

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July 4, 2013 1:44:18 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting 56ktarget,

I am afraid that falls into the "not helpful" category...

I didn't have the time for a longer post but at least wanted to correct the one obvious error in your original post. The best "advanced tactics" I can think of at the moment are more to do with micro. There isn't a lot of it in Sins but what is there can give you an edge. I'd recommend hotkeying your capital ships and Titan (ctrl + 1,2,3,etc) and then use Alt plus select a ship to grab all of one type (for example if you want to suddenly focus fire a capital ship with all your corvettes). I'd also recommend turning off autocast on all your capital ship and Titan abilities and using them in key moments. This helps make sure you have the anti-matter for when you really need it. Also, because of the way shield mitigation works, use high burst damage abilities like Ragnarov's Snipe or Advent Loyalist's Titan's focused beam (can't remember the name right now) on key targets like caps or Titans at the start of the battle before shield mitigation kicks in.

Also, when judging enemy forces before battles, zoom out, mouse over the grav well (that contains the enemy fleet) on the outer ring and it will tell you how many of each ship type there is - this way you can tell before jumping in if you have enough to win or if you need to wait and fleet more. This is what winning engagements comes down to: having even just 10 more of a certain ship type and microing/prioritizing well, and using abilities at the right time.

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July 4, 2013 2:05:48 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting JinglyGoo,
You missed an obvious one seleu: you can use scouts to help colonize bigger and better defended planets.

Doesn't that go with turret expanding, which he already said he knew?

Quoting JinglyGoo,
We had a skilled player as first ECO mass expanding across the galaxy and i was 2nd ECO prioritising fast trade and planet optimizations.

I have been in the same situation, except I TARed and our other eco didn't....he was responsible for early feed (and naturally fed earlier than me), but by mid-game me eco was out doing his and my total feed far surpassed his...I won't claim TAR is universally better because it is not, but when you have high militia worlds everywhere it is really hard to beat....

Quoting JinglyGoo,
I could hold my own after 5 games (+2 vs AI) on ICO using that "lie/myth" since i learned it from a live stream game including doci, auqia, star etc back then.

What does that even mean?  You killed an Orky with cobalts or skirmishers?  I don't see that as meaningful, since all LFs can get the job done...

 

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July 4, 2013 2:16:36 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

~DP~

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July 4, 2013 2:55:58 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Get disruptor nanites for turrets... seriously... Most vasari players dont know/forget to research this b/c its hidden in an obscure corner in defense tree, but its probably the most cost effective research in the entire vasari arsenal. Stops ALL hull, shield, am regeneration on ALL ships (including titans!). Very cheap too, with it only being tier 2 and cost like 600 credits. A couple of these early game will make enemy caps semi-useless, as the ability lasts like 5 minutes, which should last for an entire early game battle. Just one of these turrets will stop lone caps from bombing your asteroids... Not even going to mention the absurd late game advantage it gives you...

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July 4, 2013 3:24:10 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Once planet was discovered look at resource extractor colour. This way you can monitor in which direction and how fast enemy is expanding without scouting. 

You cannot rely on "front-line scouting" in this way as most skilled use this trick and they build factories or defences before they build extractors so they do not give themselves out.

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July 4, 2013 4:31:14 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

First off I want to thank everyone for their informative responses (especially Seleuceia for his super long post).   to everyone!!

 

Quoting Seleuceia,

such as the fact that apparently skirmishers and cobalts are way more effective at killing a starbase than disciples.

That's not a trade secret....that's a myth....some skilled players continue to spread this lie but testing has shown that all 3 factions can LF spam and stop any Orky rush dead cold provided they fleet ASAP and hit it when it starts building...

I would argue Advent actually have an advantage over TEC...their disciples have more DPS per fleet supply than cobalts and while the marza may help kill the SB faster, the progenitor keeps your LFs alive better plus it has SC (bombers if you choose) to begin with while marza doesn't...

I was extremely skeptical when I heard this as well, then i tested it with a 1hp upgraded sb against 50 cobalts/marza and 50 disciples/prog... lost 5 cobalts but 25-30 discs... orky was in the middle for both of these tests.

Quoting JinglyGoo,

Nice post although you are wrong on the first paragraph and TAR thing. Even more useless since DLC. Since we last disucssed it online i have tested in a double ECO 5s game. We had a skilled player as first ECO mass expanding across the galaxy and i was 2nd ECO prioritising fast trade and planet optimizations. End result i had half the planets, fed 150k more, bigger fleet and bigger income across the whole game. Its not proof or anything but im convinced that since the DLC expansion and ECO play has considerably changed.

When is it acceptable to fleet up as eco? I am always having trouble with this. I usually am the top eco every game and feed way better than the other guy, but when we get into a situation where it seems a frontliner is failing, I dont know whether to fleet up myself to help or just prioritize feeding for him...

I also am confused when I have excess amount of money and then feed it to a skilled player, he says "I dont need feed" ??? Its extra feed after I fed everybody else and waiting for upgrades/buildings to finish, what are you complaining about? Plus x amount of money in the hands of skilled player is spent better than in the hands of a new one...

Quoting Greg30007,

Once planet was discovered look at resource extractor colour. This way you can monitor in which direction and how fast enemy is expanding without scouting. 

You cannot rely on "front-line scouting" in this way as most skilled use this trick and they build factories or defences before they build extractors so they do not give themselves out.

I am not sure what you mean by this... are you saying its sometimes better to put factories/repairs down before extractors (which i sometimes do) to gain a tactical advantage?

or...

if not building extractors makes scouting difficult... in which case I am very confused as I thought planet info doesnt update automatically...

 

EDIT:

Quoting Seleuceia,

Some viable civ lab starts if you are on the frontline....advent can rush culture, put a civ lab on your HW, 2nd civ lab on moon or roid, scrap capital ship factory, and put culture on HW...you probably can get away with it if your opponent doesn't rush LRFs and isn't too close (this strategy is less viable these days since people start with 2 frigate factories)...you can do one civ lab and one mil lab as TEC start, get modular architecture ASAP to reduce cost of extractors and factories...pays off quite quickly if you are in a 2s or 3s, or a roomy map (like a huge with only 8 players)...

I am not sure about this. As a frontliner, two civ labs PLUS culture research PLUS the actual building is an enormous investment (over 3000 credits), which i feel wont get paid back until mid-game. That will give enough of an advantage to the other frontliner as to roll you over...

The rest of the post was very helpful... didnt know about the all fighter spam late gate and how repulsion affects titans...

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July 4, 2013 4:43:26 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,
Get disruptor nanites for turrets... seriously... Most vasari players dont know/forget to research this b/c its hidden in an obscure corner in defense tree, but its probably the most cost effective research in the entire vasari arsenal.

Concur!  Awesome ability....

Quoting 56ktarget,
I was extremely skeptical when I heard this as well, then i tested it with a 1hp upgraded sb against 50 cobalts/marza and 50 disciples/prog... lost 5 cobalts but 25-30 discs... orky was in the middle for both of these tests.

That's not even close to a fair test....disciples cost less and use less fleet supply per ship compared to other LFs...

Since cobalts are 5 fleet supply and disciples are 4, you should have had 50 cobalts + Marza vs. ~62 disciples + Progenitor...when you compare losses, you will again need to compare the fleet supply lost, not number of ships...

 

 

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July 4, 2013 4:52:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
ll again need to compare the fleet supply lost, not number of ships...

 

You are entirely right... i dun goofed  

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July 4, 2013 4:58:35 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

My bet is that if it's a low level progenitor, you will lose about 10 disciples, but if you have lvl 3 or higher shield regeneration (so level 5 cap) you will probably lose less than the TEC would...

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July 4, 2013 6:16:41 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting 56ktarget,
When is it acceptable to fleet up as eco? I am always having trouble with this. I usually am the top eco every game and feed way better than the other guy, but when we get into a situation where it seems a frontliner is failing, I dont know whether to fleet up myself to help or just prioritize feeding for him...

It all depends on who that frontliner is (skillwise), who they are up against, and how badly they are "failing". With experience you can judge whether the feed can save them, create a big enough delay at least, or whether you should save it and fleet up yourself. For example, if the frontliner's HW is invaded and he has no SB and a smaller fleet, it's obvious he is doomed and should probably just evacuate to a fallback planet to try and delay longer.

 

Quoting 56ktarget,
I also am confused when I have excess amount of money and then feed it to a skilled player, he says "I dont need feed" ??? Its extra feed after I fed everybody else and waiting for upgrades/buildings to finish, what are you complaining about? Plus x amount of money in the hands of skilled player is spent better than in the hands of a new one...

It's usually because that player has plenty of income/resources already, several researches in progress, and a large enough fleet already so he really has no immediate use for that feed so it's more likely it would find immediate use with someone else. If everyone else really is in the same position, then yes, giving it to the better skilled player would make sense but that also means your entire team must be dominating everywhere so it's not that important an issue where it goes.

 

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July 4, 2013 6:18:25 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting 56ktarget,
I am not sure what you mean by this... are you saying its sometimes better to put factories/repairs down before extractors (which i sometimes do) to gain a tactical advantage?

or...

if not building extractors makes scouting difficult... in which case I am very confused as I thought planet info doesnt update automatically...

 

When you play a game and once you have map scouted but still not all planets are colonised mouse over planet that you know it's colonised and has resource extractors build and planet that you know it is not colonised. You do not need to have scouts present. Pay attention to colour of fonts for resource extractors. Planet that has resource extractors already build has grey fonts while planet that does not has white fonts. 

Planets that were colonised after you scout them and have resource extractors build change colour you were looking out above even if you did not scout them after they changed ownership. And first thing most people do is they construct resource extractors since that is fastest way to get ROI from planet you just colonized. 

For instance if you are eco in 5v5 this is good way to plan path of your your expansion so you do not waste time by jumping on planet and finding out someone already colonised it, when you will clash with enemy eco .... you can plan to have factories and military labs already build since you know next planet is already colonised.....

Quoting 56ktarget,
I am not sure what you mean by this... are you saying its sometimes better to put factories/repairs down before extractors (which i sometimes do) to gain a tactical advantage? 

Yes exactly

Look at it like this

2 eco players in 5s are expanding one knows colour trick the other doesn't.

One that pays attention to colour knows he will be clashing with enemy soon so he gets ready he doesn't need to re-scout thus alert enemy of his presence quietly builds labs does research in time and builds 3 factories on planet very close to front line. Only thing he has to do is research fleet supply at last second and start attacking. He can also set a trap by fleeting up and wait for other guy to jump in and destroy his cap he is expanding with .... 

Guy that got surprised perhaps needs to scuttle some trade ports on planet he just colonized for factories and labs ...... you can see where I am going

Guy with trick is in position to push enemy eco few planets back just because he was ready thus he had momentum.

^Hope this explains it a bit better

-----------------------------------------------

Another thing most people ignore is 4th resource in SINS

Besides credits metal and crystal there is time which most people are not aware of.

Wasted resources in bank which could be put into trade ports research ships etc  or resources locked into 30 lrms which are on planet with 3 factories but are not researched yet are same thing as in real life keeping your money in your sock . Perhaps analogy is not quite good enough but what I am trying to say is if you invest in trade port or planet upgrade at right time your investment will pay off sooner therefore you will be able to invest in  2 nd port sooner and 3 rd ...... 

Same goes with ships that are build but are idle and not doing anything. They are waste of resources which could be invested in economy. There is a difference though between idle fleet and fleet that is binding enemy fleet in next gravity well in case of stale mate when you do not want to fight yet for various reasons (eg you are weaker or not quite strong enough to take that planet etc)

----------------------------------------------

SINS is game of counters and counters to counters

I pointed value of surprise when I was describing extractors but another advice I could give you is try to hide part of your fleet so enemy does not know you have counter to his fleet or just that you convince him that are weaker you really are thus making him playing recklessly by either attacking you or investing in things he shouldn't be investing if he saw real picture.

Above is reason why you will have to intercept few scouts if you can and why vasari are so deadly. Weak SB with 2 phase jumps with 10 overseers in neighbouring gravity well and small support fleet is good example 

 

 

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July 5, 2013 9:13:05 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Great post greg thank you! I didnt actually know about extractor colour trick so im very grateful for that! i agree with you 100% when you say its a game of counters. Every fair 1v1 comes down to it in Sins to determine the winner.

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July 5, 2013 11:05:44 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting JinglyGoo,
Great post greg thank you! I didnt actually know about extractor colour trick so im very grateful for that! i agree with you 100% when you say its a game of counters. Every fair 1v1 comes down to it in Sins to determine the winner.

HEHE 

There is a lot of things you do not know.

Like fact that 100 corvettes easily kill titan if he is alone so you do not need to run away from it and or spam armistice .  [e digicons]:')[/e]  

And you are wrong in saying that every fair 1v1 comes down to counters.

Most of times 4 th resource is much more important in 1v1 than anything else. Especially in first 15 minutes of game. Management of game time and not waste of it by backtracking and in ways described above posts makes your economy much stronger which in turn if players are sort of equal skill as proposed fairness suggests allows faster and easier replacement of losses.

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July 5, 2013 11:28:29 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

 

Quoting Seleuceia,
Quoting Sinkillr,
reply 9
Get disruptor nanites for turrets... seriously... Most vasari players dont know/forget to research this b/c its hidden in an obscure corner in defense tree, but its probably the most cost effective research in the entire vasari arsenal.

Concur! Awesome ability....

 

OP Ability..... in serious need of a hard nerf.

 

 

Quoting Seleuceia,


Quoting Sinkillr, reply 9Get disruptor nanites for turrets... seriously... Most vasari players dont know/forget to research this b/c its hidden in an obscure corner in defense tree, but its probably the most cost effective research in the entire vasari arsenal.

Concur!  Awesome ability....


Quoting 56ktarget, reply 11I was extremely skeptical when I heard this as well, then i tested it with a 1hp upgraded sb against 50 cobalts/marza and 50 disciples/prog... lost 5 cobalts but 25-30 discs... orky was in the middle for both of these tests.

That's not even close to a fair test....disciples cost less and use less fleet supply per ship compared to other LFs...

Since cobalts are 5 fleet supply and disciples are 4, you should have had 50 cobalts + Marza vs. ~62 disciples + Progenitor...when you compare losses, you will again need to compare the fleet supply lost, not number of ships...

 

 

 

I am sorry but even without fleet supply in the calculation, it is obvious that the Advent fleet lost far more.

 

 

 

 

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July 5, 2013 12:07:15 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Heh greg perhaps, although as you are probably aware a lot of the tricks are not talked about on the forums, and some people are very sceptical when it comes to ones that are discussed here. Even some skilled players still dont understand how to use basic Lfs properly and why sometimes they lose vs smaller fleets early game.

I am curious however as how much i still dont know, as i always thought myself ahead of nearly everyone on ICO in terms of dirty tricks anyways.  Please enlighten us!

 

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July 5, 2013 2:33:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I am tired of this disciple/Orky myth...it boggles my mind so many people believe in it....

As proof that it is in fact a MYTH, I have two records you are welcome to DL and watch...

Orky vs. Cobalts

Orky vs. Disciples

In the first battle, we have an Orky with 1 HP upgrade go against a lvl 2 Marza (with radiation bomb and raze planet, pretty standard build) and 50 cobalts...that is a total of 300 fleet supply going against the Orky....TEC loses 6 cobalts (30 fleet supply)...

In the second battle, we have an Orky with 1 HP upgrade go against a lvl 2 Progenitor (with colonize and shield regeneration, pretty standard build) with a bomber squadron and 62 disciples....that is a total of 298 fleet supply going against the Orky...Advent loses 3 disciples (12 fleet supply)....

Grey Fox and a friend did another test to simulate real game conditions....they basically played as if they were frontliners, one as Vasari and the other as either TEC or Advent....regardless of whether the other player was TEC or Advent, both times the Orky was destroyed by LF spamming...the pair concluded that as long as the two factions were close enough (within 4 jumps), the number of jumps didn't matter since the constraining factor was getting the resources and the tech to build the Orky...

Bottomline: both factions are very capable of killing weak Orkies...

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July 5, 2013 6:30:31 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,

In the first battle, we have an Orky with 1 HP upgrade go against a lvl 2 Marza (with radiation bomb and raze planet, pretty standard build) and 50 cobalts...that is a total of 300 fleet supply going against the Orky....TEC loses 6 cobalts (30 fleet supply)...

In the second battle, we have an Orky with 1 HP upgrade go against a lvl 2 Progenitor (with colonize and shield regeneration, pretty standard build) with a bomber squadron and 62 cobalts....that is a total of 298 fleet supply going against the Orky...Advent loses 3 disciples (12 fleet supply)....

I see the problem right there Seleuceia... of course 62 cobalts are going to lose fewer ships to an orky than 50 cobalts...

 

Jokes aside, I think variables like orky micro and upgrades need to be taken into account... as tec armor upgrades are very cheap. You should also try to run a test with marza incendiary/radi bomb and prog colonize/malice, because why would you get raze planet when theres a sb and apparently malice is more common than shield regen...

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July 5, 2013 7:08:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,
malice is more common than shield regen...

 

Thats is because if you play against Vasari, no amount of shield regeneration will do you any good in later game.

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July 5, 2013 8:02:09 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,
I see the problem right there Seleuceia... of course 62 cobalts are going to lose fewer ships to an orky than 50 cobalts..

Sorry about that...been fixed...

Quoting Sinkillr,
You should also try to run a test with marza incendiary/radi bomb and prog colonize/malice, because why would you get raze planet when theres a sb and apparently malice is more common than shield regen...

Let's go with your logic, that the player is picking cap abilities based on the fact that they know they will have to pop an Orky soon...by this logic, the TEC is obviously not going to pick raze planet, but then the Advent isn't going to pick malice...if one faction has the benefit of choosing the most ideal abilities specifically for the task, then so should the other....I didn't pick what abilities are best for the task, but what abilities are most likely to be picked (hence why prog has colonize)...

I picked shield regeneration because I believe it is more useful than malice at this stage of the game...it can be used to deal with both Orkies and MB, 2 common threats, while also helping fleet battles and keeping your cap alive....malice only helps with fleet battles...but that's a different argument altogether and quite frankly it doesn't matter because even without shield regeneration the Advent only lose 6 or 9 disciples (24 or 36 fleet supply), which is basically what the TEC lose (recall they lost 30 fleet supply)...

Orky microing isn't going to change things...at this stage, anything the Vasari can do to Advent they can also do to TEC...if the Orky moves to engage more than 4 targets, both TEC and Advent are going to suffer equally...

Let's now consider research upgrades both TEC and Advent have at their disposable...both factions have laser upgrades at tier 1 and tier 2, so that's a wash....

TEC have HP upgrades at tier 1 and 2...they also have an armor upgrade at tier 1...

Advent have shield upgrades at tier 1 and tier 2...they also have an HP upgrade at tier 1...

Both factions have the same number of survivability techs at the first two tiers, and those techs are going to require the same amount of resources...since TEC ships are generally about 60-65% hull, their hull techs are going to be a little more valuable than the Advent hull techs (as Advent are at about 50% hull)...higher HP ratio also makes armor more valuable for TEC...but, the armor per level is only .75 per level, so you are essentially getting 3.75% extra hull per level...

If you assume both factions have all 6 of these techs researched, TEC are getting 25% (from hull techs) + 7.5% (from armor techs) x 60% of health being hull which is basically +19.5% extra hit points....Advent are getting 10% (from hull techs) x 50% of health being hull + 20% (from shield techs) x 50% of HP being shields which is basically 15% extra hit points...you could consider other factors like hull Advent hull techs gave more HP regen but TEC armor makes hull regen more valuable (basically, another wash), but that is pointless really....bottomline: even with all 6 of these techs researched, TEC are only getting 5% more HP...

Disciples have 2.125 DPS per fleet supply while cobalts have 1.9 DPS per fleet supply...disciples have 11.8% more DPS per fleet supply...your extra 5% HP gained by considering techs is basically moot...

Cat has thrown a whole bunch of things at me, like the fact that Marza has more frontal DPS than Progenitor, but that's a silly argument because we aren't talking about the marza, we are talking about LFs...the TEC could have just as easily led with an akkan and the Advent could have led with a Halcyon with bombers and ADA or energy aura, and the situation is now reversed (Advent cap does more DPS to Orky)...if you tell me no one leads with akkans or halcyons, I'll say BULLSHIT because Auqia leads with a Halcyon and Doci leads with an Akkan (when he plays TEC) along with other skilled players...

I've also heard the whole phase missiles rape Advent excuse, but that's not relevant either...Orkies don't get phase missiles unless they have 2 weapon upgrades and if you are attacking an Orky with 2 weapon upgrades using LFs then we have bigger issues...

I stand by my conclusion that TEC and Advent are about the same when it comes to kill an Orky...if Vasari have nano-disassemblers, they have an edge but otherwise they are basically equally capable with LF spamming...

The only, and I mean only plausible argument I've heard or seen anywhere for why cobalts are better than disciples for fighting Orkies has to deal with build times...ironically, the only person who I've ever seen bring this up is me...if you do the math, on a per time basis a TEC player can amass slightly more DPS with cobalts than the Advent can with disciples...but the difference is negligible and as far as I'm concerned not remotely relevant to 99% of all situations involving Orky rushing....

Quite frankly, having your frigate factories on the wrong side of your HW is going to be far more damning than any difference between Advent and TEC...

 

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July 5, 2013 9:00:43 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Selecucia I don't know what kind of tests/experiments you've been doing but your doing it completely wrong. When I did them, I got vastly different numbers than yours. Here are my results:

First Battle

Level 2 Marza with radiation bomb and incendiary shells + 50 non-upgraded cobalts (300 supply)

vs.

1 hp upgraded orky

Results: 1 marza and 36 cobalts remaining (230 supply)

 

Second Battle

Level 2 Prog with malice and colonize + 62 non-upgraded disciples

vs.

1 hp upgraded orky

Results: 1 prog and 35 disciples remaining (190 supply)

 

THE ADVENT LOST 40 MORE SUPPLY!!!! 

PLEASE LAY OFF WHATEVER SUBSTANCE YOU ARE USING AND JOIN US IN THE REALM OF REALITY!!!    

I did three trials for all of these... the averages are what you see here. The orky was in the middle in all of these tests. I tried to get your results in any way possible... The only time I got them was when my orky suddenly did a 180 and was laying on its side... Are you sure that didnt happen in your tests??!

 

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