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Advanced Multiplayer Tactics?

By on July 3, 2013 10:30:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

56ktarget

Join Date 07/2013
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What are the advanced tactics in this game? I already know all of the basic/intermediate ones, like turret expanding, killing constructors, not attacking sb with vettes, etc. I am of intermediate skill (can play eco/frontliner well), so advice like "build MOAR Ships!" is not helpful. What I'm asking for are the so called "trade secrets" that every multiplayer game seems to have, such as the fact that apparently skirmishers and cobalts are way more effective at killing a starbase than disciples.

 

Any help is appreciated! 

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July 5, 2013 11:14:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I posted replays that would have answered all your questions and shown you exactly how I got my results...you obviously did not watch them and for all I know you're pulling numbers out of thin air (I doubt you are but my point still stands, I have replays and you don't)...

Just for completeness, I did a second trial as Advent...same conditions, 62 disciples + a lvl 2 Progenitor with bomber squadron and shield regeneration (lvl 1)...the only difference is that I tried to micro the Orky into the midst of the Advent fleet to try and maximize all banks of the Orky....

Results were the same....disciples were so clustered together that Orky simply could not break them up or get in the middle for any extended period of time...only 3 disciples died with shield regeneration active (6-9 die without it)...I even tried to do some z-axis shit (not on this replay) to get the Orky to get back into the fight and stop going around the disciples, but it didn't matter as it just pushed them all up, not out....

Here is the replay of this second trial, though I'm not sure why I bother since they aren't even watched....I did it a few other times, and while the Orky might have gone a different direction each time (maybe went above, to the left, or to the right as opposed to down) the results were the same.....it never could break the tight disciple formation and stay in the center of them...

 

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July 6, 2013 12:16:15 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I've actually watched all three of your replays... you are not correctly using the orky in any of them. In the first two tests, the orky is off to the side when shooting the discs/cobalts, which means only half the guns are firing. In the third test, you try to correct this, but what actually happens is that you OVERMOVE the sb, which has the opposite effect: still only half the guns are firing. You need to just let the orky push the lfs a tiny bit and let it sit there to get accurate results. The fact that we get totally different results confirm this makes a huge difference.

 

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July 6, 2013 5:18:10 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,
which means only half the guns are firing

One fourth actually...

I've done everything I can with the Orky, including moving it with the z-axis, but it doesn't matter...

Even when the Orky is in a position to fire from multiple banks, it automatically tilts itself, and the only possible way to prevent it from doing so is to constantly press cancel order...my disciples are just always so clustered that no matter what the Orky does it cannot separate them...

If you have a replay showing your Orky finesse, post it...but right now I'm thinking you just have your LFs more spread out...idk why that is, because without even microing them they'll be clustered together...you aren't doing the confused sperm maneuver are you?

Anyway even if they were spread out, it wouldn't change things that much, which is why your results absolutely confound me...as long as they are still in range of shield regeneration, whether it is 3 targets or 30 targets that are getting shot at doesn't matter...the Orky doesn't kill any disciples until the progenitor runs low on AM and has to wait for it to regenerate its pool....the progenitor only runs out of AM at the end, and therefore there is only enough time for the Orky to kill the ships it has been shooting at from the very beginning....worst case scenario, this would be 15 (4 banks x 4 targets per bank - 1 cause of cap being targeted), and that's if all four weapon banks were firing at the LFs which basically means you spread the LFs out...since losses higher than 15 are being reported, idk what confused sperm indian war dance is going on with your LFs...

If you are phase jumping and then going in the attack, you'd run out of AM faster so you might have more losses...honestly though I think using lvl 2 caps is selling both factions short, since by the time you'd have 250 fleet supply of LFs you probably have a lvl 3 or lvl 4 cap at least, and now you are talking higher AM regen and better abilities...a more realistic test would have both factions losing less ships....in fact Advent with lvl 2 shield regeneration might not suffer any losses....

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July 6, 2013 7:54:17 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
Even when the Orky is in a position to fire from multiple banks, it automatically tilts itself, and the only possible way to prevent it from doing so is to constantly press cancel order...my disciples are just always so clustered that no matter what the Orky does it cannot separate them...

Try constantly issue move order to orky so its path goes trough enemy fleet. What should happen is orky will push enemy fleet apart and move to the middle. If you keep issuing same order to bump into ships and with practice you will be able to cause a lot of (up to 60%) of disciples or cobalts to start spinning and pointing away from orky itself thus not firing and inflicting any dmg whatsoever thus you will loose significantly more fleet and get time to upgrade it or bring reinforcements.

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July 6, 2013 8:32:25 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Greg30007,
Try constantly issue move order

This works well with capital ships too if they are being crowd blocked.

 

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July 6, 2013 9:09:01 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Lets not forget upgrade time here.... if you dont destroy the Orky quickly... it will get additional upgrades that might be more than enough to crush all opposition.

 

Imho you should immediatly upgrading the Orky the moment the battle is joined..... and then we will see if it is still killable.

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July 6, 2013 10:24:04 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

all i know i fought that selucia guy and he raped me

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July 6, 2013 4:43:52 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I uploaded replays Seleucia... Same setup as last time (marza with rad bomb and shells, prog with malice)

50 cobalts + Marza vs Orky  http://www.mediafire.com/?3g40yyo2cv43a4x

43 cobalts survive...

62 disciples + Prog vs Orkyhttp://www.mediafire.com/?37dqqbqv9w9i0nj

29 disciples survive...

The results speak for themselves... disciples are terrible against Vasari starbases when compared to cobalts... And when I swapped out malice with shield regeneration, only about 4-5 disciples more survive...

Don't try to pin this on the spinning ships thing either, as both the cobalts and the disciples were displaying it in the replay...

 

 

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July 6, 2013 5:42:34 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,
50 disciples + Prog vs Orky- http://www.mediafire.com/?37dqqbqv9w9i0nj

29 disciples survive...

I watched the replay and it was 62 disciples which is correct.

The only problem is shield restore was never cast!

I suggest re-running that with shield restore actually casting.

 

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July 6, 2013 5:51:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ZombiesRus5,

Quoting Sinkillr, reply 33

50 disciples + Prog vs Orky- http://www.mediafire.com/?37dqqbqv9w9i0nj

29 disciples survive...

I watched the replay and it was 62 disciples which is correct.

The only problem is shield restore was never cast!

I suggest re-running that with shield restore actually casting.
 

Nice catch zombie, edited post to include correction.

As for the rest of the comment, I would advise you to re-read my entire post...It clearly says the replay was with MALICE only. This is due to more advent players picking that over shield regen vs vasari. It also says that i tested it after with shield regen, with 4-5 more advent ships surviving... 

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July 6, 2013 6:34:12 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,
As for the rest of the comment, I would advise you to re-read my entire post...It clearly says the replay was with MALICE only. This is due to more advent players picking that over shield regen vs vasari. It also says that i tested it after with shield regen, with 4-5 more advent ships surviving... 

The replay showed the prog had shield restore.

 

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July 6, 2013 6:43:31 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yeah, but it wasnt being used. I only picked it so that I dont have to make two separate games with advent; one with shield restore and one with malice.

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July 6, 2013 7:47:25 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,

Yeah, but it wasnt being used. I only picked it so that I dont have to make two separate games with advent; one with shield restore and one with malice.

IDK you had more banks targeting against the disciples than you did the cobalts. I'd repeat both tests to make them more identical.

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July 6, 2013 8:29:12 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think the idea is to kill the orky before it's built.

Also to answer the OP, the thing about advanced tactics is more about being dynamic and adaptive against an enemy. Expanding, attacking, and keeping the enemy on the move or you in control.  

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July 7, 2013 7:27:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I can't DL sinkillr's replays right now (I don't think the DL link is bad, it's where I'm getting my internet from atm) but I will try to when on different internet connection....

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July 11, 2013 9:38:27 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

in regards to the OP what do people do to create/practice Micro tactics and such?

I would imagine multiplayer is not the most conducive format for this.

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July 11, 2013 11:18:13 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Trial and error in multiplayer and people actually willing to try something different. For example, the Corsev tactic back in beta just cropped up since someone decided to try it out with all the corvette spam at the time. And behold it was super powerful.

You don't exactly get too much from an AI since throwing any larger blob works well enough.

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July 11, 2013 10:20:20 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

right, but you try something and it's hours before you can try again. isn't there a better way?

I'd ask for specifics, but other than the standards, it seems no one wants to give up their tricks (though, there have been some good ones here). I can understand that in a MP environment, so I'm asking if anyone has some good methods for nailing down their own tricks. That can't reveal your secrets.

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July 11, 2013 10:57:25 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting SithLordAJ,

right, but you try something and it's hours before you can try again. isn't there a better way?

I'd ask for specifics, but other than the standards, it seems no one wants to give up their tricks (though, there have been some good ones here). I can understand that in a MP environment, so I'm asking if anyone has some good methods for nailing down their own tricks. That can't reveal your secrets.

Just set things up in the dev.exe and turn off the AI so you can control both sides.

 

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July 16, 2013 9:04:39 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Right, unfortunately i ve been away for 2 weeks so missed this thread. Seleu your post is completely incorrect even ignoring things like going bomb/raze?! on a lvl 2 Marza. Nobody does that. Im going to say it for the last time so please listen and open your modded mind to new ideas and concepts.

1. Your cap ships will *always* be lvl1 as u have no time to kill enough militia to lvl up unless you buy a lvl.

2. Marza player will skill an appropriate lvl 1 skill dependings on what he sees and what is required.

3. Its very important to note that the number of jumps have to be less than 4 as those were the conditions discussed.

4. Remember to siege the planet with egg etc, so half way through the Orky going up you will kill the planet and the build time will be significantly decreased.

5. Now go and record 2 replays with exact timing and whatever supply of LFs/Discs you can master in that time and you ll see what i mean.

IF you come up with the proof and 2 replays, i will accept here on the forums that it is a "myth" or im wrong etc.. Trust me enough testing has been done by skilled players on this in the past. Top ICO players have tested it and agree on it.

 

Seleu i know you are nice in game and definately know more than i do about certain/many aspects of the game having been modding or even playing for ages, but i feel thats the main reason why you and other modders here have a tough time having an open mind with things that go against your knowledge of the game.

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July 16, 2013 9:44:54 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting JinglyGoo,
1. Your cap ships will *always* be lvl1 as u have no time to kill enough militia to lvl up unless you buy a lvl.

 

WTF?

 

I see plently of level 3 and 4 capital ships in my MP games.... it isnt that difficult after all.

 

 

Not to mention that if you have a level 1 capship you are in some serious trouble if your enemy has a level 3 one.

 

It is quite doable to buy 2 levels in the beginning, unless you have a really shitty starting position with 3 hostiles bearing down on you. (In wich case you should relocate)

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July 16, 2013 10:09:01 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ARESIV,


Quoting JinglyGoo, reply 451. Your cap ships will *always* be lvl1 as u have no time to kill enough militia to lvl up unless you buy a lvl.

WTF?

I see plently of level 3 and 4 capital ships in my MP games.... it isnt that difficult after all.

Not to mention that if you have a level 1 capship you are in some serious trouble if your enemy has a level 3 one.

 
It is quite doable to buy 2 levels in the beginning, unless you have a really shitty starting position with 3 hostiles bearing down on you. (In wich case you should relocate)

 

Mate, i think you missed the point. We are discussing early game orky rushes under the above conditions. You cap ship doesnt not have enough time to lvl past 1 unless you buy a level.

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July 16, 2013 12:07:57 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting SithLordAJ,
in regards to the OP what do people do to create/practice Micro tactics and such?

I would imagine multiplayer is not the most conducive format for this.

You play MP game and you die or barely come trough winning.

After game is finished you go and watch replay of said game and see what you could do better and what enemy did to beat you. Then assimilate or adapt to strategy 

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July 16, 2013 9:51:20 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting JinglyGoo,
Mate, i think you missed the point. We are discussing early game orky rushes under the above conditions. You cap ship doesnt not have enough time to lvl past 1 unless you buy a level.

An early game Orky rush is in no way comparable to the conditions extensively tested above...your recent post may be about early Orky rushing, but the vast majority of this thread is not....

The claim being made is that disciples are severely inferior to cobalts when it comes to popping Orkies...this claim has been made both in general and specifically to early game rushing...the above tests take into account the firepower and resiliency of those LFs on a per fleet supply basis and thus disprove the claim on a general basis...it is true that Sinkillr has conflicting results, however both me and Zombie have noted that more disciples are being shot at in his tests than cobalts, a huge difference which explains the discrepancy he found...

As for a realistic early game test, that has already been done...a quote (thread) from a skilled player that did exactly what you have asked (a true early game test):

Quoting Cykur,
Yes, it was 3 jumps, but two of the jumps are almost right angles and don't take long to traverse.  The final time I was showing Sagewon he could defend from me, I sent the Migrator immediately and it was arriving just as the technology was finishing being researched.  2 jumps or 3, it was near the limit of how soon an Orky could be built. 
The other thing I demonstrated was that there is quite a margin of safety...you don't HAVE to be completely prepared as long as you react right away and start building and sending ships.  When I was defending the first time, I didn't even start building a second frig factory until after the Orky was being built.  Sagewon again had an easier time than I did, because in his paranoia he amassed more ships sooner, while I pretended I didn't know an Orky attack was coming.  Both of us had no problem fighting it off.  Ironically, the only person who might have trouble fighting off an Orky with frigates is another Vasari if they haven't committed to frigates and didn't research for their own Orky....but as for Advent and TEC, they can just spit out Disciples / Cobalts.
Anyhow, that is why I wanted to see a replay of someone fighting the "impossible" Orky rush.  If this becomes an issue in 5's, the only possible thing I can think of is that the games early speed boost via Alloy disproportionally affects build times and not attack times, making an Orky build faster than it should.  This is just wild speculation on my part, because I've never directly encountered what "all skilled players know", that it is impossible to stop an Orky rush as Advent.

For those who care, a whole discussion about early Orky rushes exists on the last 2 pages of the thread linked above...after very good testing, two skilled players that have been here a long time (SageWon and Cykur) determined that TEC and Advent are equally capable in stopping an early game Orky rush...SageWon even initially thought like you do, that Advent were at a disadvantage, but when he actually tested it, the facts changed his mind....by the way, SageWon and Cykur did their tests before the default start included 2 frigate factories...if they could stop it then as Advent, it should be even easier now....

Jingly, considering this thread and the "confused sperm thread", I can say this about you:

You continually beg the question, constantly asking the other side to provide proof even though you yourself show none...when proof and analysis is provided that doesn't jive with your notions, you dismiss it...

You claim all skilled players agree with you and that "everyone" seems to know what you "know", but this "skilled consensus" clearly does not exist...Cykur, SageWon, and myself attest that your claim is a myth...multiple skilled players have commented on this thread, yet only you and Sinkillr have actually come forward in support of your claim...where is Doci and Grimm, who you allege have enlightened you with this secret?  If everyone "knows" what you say is true, why are most of the skilled players in this thread (Ekko, Greg, Ares) choosing to withhold evidence and opinions in support of your claim?

You have attacked Zombie's and my credibility because we are modders, using that to imply we are inherently unskilled or unknowledgeable....you criticize us for being arrogant, yet in both threads we have put forth proof of our claims...if we are arrogant for believing our evidence and finding faults in yours (or rather Sinkillr's, since you yourself have none), then you are equally arrogant for accepting Sinkillr's evidence while dismissing our own...

At best, this is simply a controversial topic with evidence (and the testimony of skilled players) on both sides....at worse, it's a myth recently purported by 2 players, only one of which actually takes the time to provide evidence other than hearsay....either way, there is no consensus in support of your claim, and these discussions are quite tiring...you've tried to convince me that disciples shoot sideways, that hull technologies don't affect frigates, and that cobalts somehow move differently than other frigates....Sinkillr has provided evidence of his claims and I can respect and appreciate that....I however have no patience for your games, Jingly...

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July 16, 2013 10:05:03 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

To be fair I think Jinglycat has been trolling the entire time with his posts. Also, I am not sure why you think the tests were faulty (did you even watch them, or are you just accepting zombie's testimony?), as the vasari sb was in the same position for both these tests (middle of fleet) and had the same number of banks firing for 90% of both tests. I can screenshot it if you want, but just watch the replay again. 

 

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