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Why you DON'T yell 'fire' in a Theater....

By on July 8, 2013 7:58:14 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Jafo

Join Date 03/2001
+1051

16 year old Pink fan paid 460-odd to be in the mosh pit at Pink's concert last night [in Melbourne] and TWITtered some crap about a bomb...and 'blowing up the Rod Laver arena'....

His face was identified from his page....and he was located in the arena.....carted out by security and didn't get to see anything of the concert.

He now faces Police criminal charges of terrorism [and notification he will NOT be getting a refund].

 

You rug-rats of the 'Me Generation' need to learn about ramifications.

Try NOT to do it at the cost of $460 AND probable permanent criminal record.

And no, it's not an 'over reaction' it's legitimate concerns for PUBLIC SAFETY. [but I'm sure some civil libertarian will get all weepy - even though one possible outcome could easily have been a crowd panic/stampede resulting in actual death and injury].

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July 9, 2013 2:28:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,


Quoting Kamamura_CZ, reply 21Even Coca Cola has killed more than all terrorists combined via diabetes and obesity-related problems,

Always blame someone else. Never take personal responsibility for obesity and its related problems like eating to excess and insufficient exercise.

Coca Cola did that. The person didn't overdo...no, never. The man from Coca Cola came to their houses, tied them up and put tubes down their throats while pouring bottle after bottle down. Poor victims!

Stop blaming others. Take responsibility for your own acts and demand others do the same. We might actually get a civil society that way.

Demand the same from politicians and go after them when they give companies a free pass to pollute (big campaign contributions = bribery). Take responsibility for the society you live in and demand others do the same.

I agree that we all must take responsibility for our actions.  Doc, I'm surprised at your short response.  Doesn't sound like you.  However, given the immense power and influence of 'public relations enhanced' advertising, magnified thru the almost totally pervasive media (mass and others), it has become more and more difficult for lone individuals to ignore the sirens' call.   The ants (individuals) in the 'free market place' have little chance to resist  the extremely well funded campaigns waged against them by the massive Giants in the 'free market' place.  These giant corporate behemoths have learned extremely effective propaganda, manipulation, and influencing techniques that 'bypass' the conscious attentiveness of most individuals.  Such scientifically based manipulation techniques would amaze Freud's brother (founder of the original 'Madison Ave mindset). His technological kin/descendents have taken manipulation via images, sounds, voice, etc., to an incredible degree of effectiveness. 

This same media is being used to systematically wage war on any competing organizations that might counter their profit making campaigns:  labor unions (ants attempting to get work together and get big enough to go 'toe to toe' with corporations); disparage 'big' government and push states rights, get everything done 'locally, 'get the gov't out of the way,' so no group ant-citizens (or political body) is big enough to challenge the giants.  Divide and conquer.  Yes, fat Americans are responsible for their choices.  Chinese people forced to use burning coal to heat their homes are responsible for the loss of 5 years off their life spans because they poison their home air with burning coal fumes.  Nothing happens in a vacuum, its all connected.  No, a gun was not put to the head of that 'consumer/profit center.'  But an army of savvy, full time advertisers, using techniques gleaned from 50 years of research by full time scientists, engineers, artists, and others, amplified by an almost 24 a day deluge did influence that individual.  Giants in the market place will continue to wage war on individuals. And a lone individual, unless a very exceptional person, stands little chance of shaking off all the influences of these giants. The blame belongs on a system that places short term profit above individual long term health.  Yes, Coca cola did not put a literal gun to the head of the obese person, so true.  But that giant corporatist behemoth, along with its co-conspirators, did place an info gun against that persons head, and its 'data' penetrated its target, in many cases, bypassing the target's conscious facilities.  Who is to blame?  How do we fix this?  Do we even have a right to interfere with the relationship between the giants and their ant size prey?  Do we want to interfere with with social Darwinism?  Should we let the giants consume the ants?

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July 9, 2013 5:27:10 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

It'd be 'handy' if we just kept on topic.

Hint....Coca Cola has exactly diddly-squat to do with this issue/topic/thread.

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July 9, 2013 6:26:22 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Elana, my response had to do with rejection of Kamamura_CZ's abrogation and negation of personal responsibility for acts. That and only that. I agree completely with Jafo that Coca Cola is extraneous to the OP. It was not my example. 

The youth in the OP did something dangerous and criminal. He did it, not his daddy, mommy or Sigmund Freud. 

The responsibility lies with him, not his school, not the foods in his diet, not his church, political party nor Zodiac sign.

"He chose...poorly.", as the line goes.

My answers are becoming more laconic as I "grow older".

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July 9, 2013 10:47:30 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Here's my opinion on this, and I do want to say up front that at this stage if everything in the OP turns out to be true, an arrest has to happen.

First, going solely off the information provided, we don't know that he did that. I could much more easily see someone swiping someone's phone and sending tweets like that as a prank rather than going all the way there and tweeting pranks. Why even go if that's what you want to do? Also could have been high on something and freaking out, who knows. Who ever sent it was stupid and the prank was in very poor taste.

Second, if the kid had nothing on him and they had no other reason to believe he intended anything, I think charging him with terrorism is overkill. People are always more flamboyant on the internet, it shouldn't be taken more seriously then necessary. I said an arrest has to happen now, but I think that's because it has become a news/political story. I don't see terrorism without a weapon. Maybe some other criminal charge would make sense for the threats, but terrorism is ridiculous. Without question, he should have been immediately removed from the concert just as they did. I'm arguing about how he is charged after the fact when they clearly know it was a bad prank.

On the subject of scaring kids to teach them a lesson (or whatever), I disagree. I don't think kids have a lack of fear of ramifications when it comes to things like this. In fact I think there's too much fear. Everyone over reacts to hints of terrorism to such an extent that a kid might do something for that attention or the thrill of such fear. My opinion is that things like this, if valid, are evidence that terrorism is actually working. Don't let it.

 

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July 9, 2013 11:11:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sure, what age? 3 year old yells it? 7? 11? 13? 16?

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July 9, 2013 11:29:38 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting SithLordAJ,
I disagree. I don't think kids have a lack of fear of ramifications when it comes to things like this. In fact I think there's too much fear.

It was simple, plain ignorance of the ramifications of verbal content/choice.

Yes, he did do it...he said so to to the security/authorities.  He was picked out of the crowd by facial recognition agreeing that it was his photo on his twitter acc.

He was simply enthusiastic about going to enjoy the concert...quoting a line from a Pink song and not realising the wording he used implied 'criminal intent' in a crowded [vulnerable] venue.

Primarily the issue will be that he was actually present - in front of the stage, and not 'merely' texting or writing something on 'the net'.

Point is...it wasn't even 'a prank',  it was plain IGNORANCE.

I don't expect the charge of 'Terrorism' to be invalid in the circumstances....only the punishment is likely to be less.  Whether or not that results in a criminal record is what is going to affect him the most.  EG. he'd be prohibited from ever visiting the US, etc. in his lifetime.

It's a bit like diving into a water hole without first checking its depth.....seemed like a good idea at the time....only the resulting quadriplegia sucks a bit.

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July 10, 2013 12:00:59 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

ok, I obviously dont know all the details of this story, but I do have to point out that if he got in trouble for quoting a singer from the concert he was in.... did they arrest Pink as well? how is it that the singer is allowed to say things he can't?

Now that I know he quoted a song lyric, I'm even more against this. It sounds like ignorance on the part of the security people.

However, your more recent post suggests this was outside the US. If that's the case, then I'll drop my arguments because I don't know the laws of other countries or have a sense of how to morally apply them.

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July 10, 2013 12:16:24 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting SithLordAJ,
However, your more recent post suggests this was outside the US. If that's the case, then I'll drop my arguments because I don't know the laws of other countries or have a sense of how to morally apply them.

Sith....the OP mentions 'Melbourne' and 'Rod Laver Arena' ...

The Laws will be essentially the same... however again, the reference to Pink's song was to do with 'bomb' [I don't know which song it was] but it's about context.... not about whether the performer can sing lyrics or not.

Incidentally...if Pink got up and said 'there's a bomb in the arena' she'd get her bum slapped equally as fast....

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July 10, 2013 12:53:51 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting Jafo,
she'd get her bum slapped equally as fast...

Little slapper's wishful thinkin' there

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July 10, 2013 11:55:46 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

yeah, I dont know where those places are.

I don't really care about this thing you call 'music' either...

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July 11, 2013 4:50:24 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

They should´ve investigated a bit further on it, people like that must have deeper related problems ( if you have to tweet about something like this "to make a joke"- that isn’t anything in the sense of sane )

either his cojones must have been producing too much testosterone so that his brain switched to Flintstone mode that night while he wrote it or he´d suffer from deep mental issues that need to be treated ASAP.

But I guess he did get a beaten by security.

Kudos to the person that found that tweet.

Why I think so ? If a normal Human reaches the age of 12-16 it can predict good from right 
example throwing an object against another object that travels into your direction will cause a higher impact/force ( bigger hole greater damage than if the object your throwing at is standing still or moving away) 

If the person was not having 1,2  or higher in his bloodstream the brain should be able to calculate this subliminally

Just like you know that sticking your hand into a loaded rat trap will hurt.

If anyone did a prank on him using his "smartphone whatsoever" - he should really consider to search for new real friends.
One more thing Sith didn’t consider someone without a weapon as potential terrorist - look into the news / a weapon can be everything and knowledge is one of "our" greatest weapons. 

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July 11, 2013 8:20:37 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting SithLordAJ,
yeah, I dont know where those places are.

A 'basic' education comes in handy....once you master the knack of breathing without the need for conscious effort.

Have you heard of tennis?

Did you know there are only 4 Open tennis championships referred to as the 'grand slam'?

Can you name which countries host them?

I'll eddykate....US Open, British Open, French Open, and Australian Open.

And where is the Australian Open held? - Melbourne..... in that Arena.

While we're at it....as you might not know what tennis is....Formula One? .... there's 18 races ....yep, one is in Melbourne.

Can't count to 4 wheels? No problemo.... how about MotoGP? - only 2 wheels ... again Melbourne [Phillip Island].

Still no good?   How about World Superbikes? [no, not the parochial US superbikes] - Melbourne.

Dunno what a wheel is?....OK, how about nags?  Thing called 'The Melbourne Cup' ..... strangely in Melbourne.....as 'big' as Ascot ......oh, wait....you dunno where Ascot is.

Perhaps you're in California....maybe somewhere where they have 'bushfires'.... guess where the strange-accented fire fighters come from [quite regularly, actually] - yep.... Melbourne.

How about 'ground zero' .... guess where the company comes from that did the cleanup....

I could go on....

Re music, however....I've heard some great artists there....you won't have heard of any of them I imagine....

Leonard Cohen.... Roger Waters.... Black Sabbath ... Pink Floyd ... Pink ... Evanescence ....

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July 11, 2013 8:26:21 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Roloccolor,
They should´ve investigated a bit further on it, people like that must have deeper related problems ( if you have to tweet about something like this "to make a joke"- that isn’t anything in the sense of sane )

Rolo ...you clearly have missed the references.... but no, it wasn't a 'joke'...it was a badly worded moment of enthusiasm/anticipation.

There's no 'deeper related problems' other than a total lack of understanding of common sense...as to HOW A STATEMENT CAN BE INTERPRETED.

If he thought about it he would probably have gone "oops....that was bad choice of words"...but he's a 16 year old idiot without a grip on practical reality .... product of our times.

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July 11, 2013 12:35:31 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Jafo,
Rolo ...you clearly have missed the references.... but no, it wasn't a 'joke'...it was a badly worded moment of enthusiasm/anticipation


 ohm when I read the OT there is no links...
Anyway if it was only because he was exited and wanted to tweet that he can’t wait for the party to start - I do feel a bit sorry for him but only a bit since he/she didn’t think far enough ahead.

Actually I just searched about it.
@Pink I'm ready with my Bomb. Time to blowup #RodLaverArena B*tch."
[ A tweet is very short and he probably squeezed everything in it he/she could ]
sadly
that was a poor life choice especially if it should´ve meant “drop the effects, the music, everything — just drop it all.”
Quoting Jafo,
There's no 'deeper related problems' other than a total lack of understanding of common sense...as to HOW A STATEMENT CAN BE INTERPRETED.

If he/she was too excited about pink (even if pink represents the “role model”)*cough -and he or she just send that message like ohh shit that was a poor choice of words – why not correct yourself in an following tweet? Means there was no thought about it at all.
But if he/she gets overwhelmed of anxiety just because a famous person is close to him/her it would be probably better to stay away from it in future or at least learn about the mistake of tweeting stuff like he/she did.

Quoting Jafo,
but he's a 16 year old idiot without a grip on practical reality ...

Bingo [e digicons]'[/e]


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July 13, 2013 1:54:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Jafo, I don't care about any of those other things you mentioned either; just like I'm sure you don't care about physics and calculus.

I'm not saying my stuff is better or that I've never heard of them... to each his own.

I'm sure I could've googled the city to figure out where it is, and I should have if I had thought it relevant. If there was only one Melbourne in the world, I probably would have.

I stand by my earlier viewpoint on what should have happened. You are welcome to disagree with me,  I'm sure plenty of people will. We used to have this thing called freedom of speech. No, I'm not saying you can say whatever you want, consequences be damned; just like I didn't say security should have bought him some iced tea and left him alone. What matters is intention.

Hell, there's a comedian who has a terrorist puppet character. What if someone thought one of his jokes was funny and tweeted it? If security picks up on it, yeah get him away from the stage and figure out if it's a real threat. No question. Charge him if it caused additional problems (like the whole crowd flipping out, or something), but charges that are proportional to the crime... terrorism is in a whole other league compared to what was done here. For example, say the crowd found out and panicked and a person got trampled and died. I would charge the guy with manslaughter at worst (would probably be a dozen charges altogether). 

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July 13, 2013 2:34:53 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting SithLordAJ,
Hell, there's a comedian who has a terrorist puppet character. What if someone thought one of his jokes was funny and tweeted it? If security picks up on it, yeah get him away from the stage and figure out if it's a real threat. No question. Charge him if it caused additional problems (like the whole crowd flipping out, or something), but charges that are proportional to the crime... terrorism is in a whole other league compared to what was done here. For example, say the crowd found out and panicked and a person got trampled and died. I would charge the guy with manslaughter at worst (would probably be a dozen charges altogether). 

Correct. Context and appearance count. Context: World where 9/11, London, Boston, Aurora and school bombings/shootings happen. These cause "An abundance of caution". They also cause fools to get their arses handed to them. "Think before you speak or act". Good advice. He didn't: "He chose ...poorly."

What he did was stupid in the extreme, and now he's going to pay the price...probably won't discourage other idiots, though. People are going to get hurt by idiots like these. Best to weed them out before they cause worse damage.

The charges in the case of deaths would have been felony murder (or the Australian equivalent).

Our individual thoughts about the matter count little...the Australian Criminal Prosecutors have their opinion, and it counts a good deal more. 

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July 13, 2013 4:03:51 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,
Correct. Context and appearance count. Context: World where 9/11, London, Boston, Aurora and school bombings/shootings happen. These cause "An abundance of caution". They also cause fools to get their arses handed to them. "Think before you speak or act". Good advice. He didn't: "He chose ...poorly."What he did was stupid in the extreme, and now he's going to pay the price...

"...stupid in the extreme..."

A 16 year old kid is excited about a concert and makes a reference to a song by the artist (that happens to include the word bomb, and a pretty standard pop culture reference to "blowing up" aka slaying it aka rocking it aka having a great time aka having a great show aka etc. etc. etc.).

Are we so sadly politically correct that this should be an issue at all? It's a kid excited about a concert. I am blown away by the sensitivity here. This wasn't "stupid in the extreme"...this was a teenager excited about a concert who made a reference on twitter to the artist and her material. I think that's pretty reasonable.

Anyone who was headed to the arena to see the concert likely had an idea of what he meant, i.e. no realistic potential for a "panic" or a "scare" or people being trampled to death in a fearful rush to the exit, especially if you read what he tweeted. If such had happened, fine - charge away. Otherwise, part of me just says "get over it".

No disrespect intended - not a personal callout. Simply my thoughts.

 

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July 13, 2013 7:47:29 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting negaither,
If such had happened, fine - charge away. Otherwise, part of me just says "get over it".

So....if the terrorists in 9/11 had been intercepted before the event, preventing it nappening we should all just 'get over it'?

The 'statement' on twitter was, to all intents and purposes a 'notice of intent', just as stockpiling fertilizer [when you're not a farmer] equally raises concerns.

There WAS NO alternative action than that which was taken.....simply because had it actually been what it appeared ... an inquest into the event would be very critical of security's inaction.

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July 13, 2013 8:45:43 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Your scenarios are not at all equal. The terrorists on 9/11 set out to do harm. If only we would have intercepted them.

Tweeting about a bomb at a school (even in a potentially joking manner) would fit the scenario you describe, whether intending to do harm, or a kid being dumb and not thinking through the ramifications. That is where you intercept a kid and possibly press charges.

Tweeting "@Pink I'm ready with my Bomb. Time to blowup #RodLaverArena B!*@h [my edit]” does not fit this basic premise. The artist (Pink) sings a song (Timebomb) that includes lyrics about bombs blowing up. It was a public message directed at her referencing her music. Any person paying money to attend her concert is likely at least familiar with the song, and would understand the reference. I don't think it is reasonable to suggest in any way that this could result in panic, danger, harm, etc. The statement "time to blowup X" or any iteration thereof is common in today's vernacular.

Given the circumstances above, I completely disagree that this statement could at all be interpreted as a "notice of intent", ESPECIALLY in the same line as someone stockpiling fertilizer. I would suggest there is a huge leap between the two.

There IS an alternative action going forward - save criminal charges for criminal acts. This is an overblown misunderstanding caused by overly sensitive persons who were unable to critically assess his statement about the arena in context of the planned event. Bomb - song reference. Blow [it] up - common phrasing: have an awesome time. Venue - concert location where Bombs will be on topic and Blowing up as a sentiment makes fine sense.

 

From Twitter:

"grandpas 90th birthday party rn everybody cruise!!! blow it up!!!" - mass murder?

"You want to burn this bridge? I'll blow it up." - planned terrorist strike on key infrastructure?

"Just learned termites have weaseled their way into my home, so now I'm trying to decide if I wanna set it on fire or blow it up w/dynamite." - potential insurance fraud?

"I'm the most annoying texter. Like if you don't answer me I'll blow it up. Idgaf"\ - murder?

"2223 delaney ave 32806 Tomorrow's address blow it up!!!" - detailed murder plans?

"Building a bridge just to tie you to it and blow it up." - terrorism with named target?

"I don't wanna hear anyone annoyed tonight with fireworks pictures or tweets this is America baby blow it up" - terrorism?

"Dad is talking about how easy it would be to bringabomb onto a ferry " - terrorism?

"College Tip: You can get out of class early if you bringa smoke bomb or any bomb." - terrorism?

 

I do understand there is a difference - the kid's tweet called out a specific place during an event, and included both statements "bomb" and "blow it up". Simply looking to illustrate that these are not irregular or threatening statements, they are part of common vernacular, and assigning "notice of intent" seems somewhat unreasonable.

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July 13, 2013 9:02:33 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting negaither,
I do understand there is a difference - the kid's tweet called out a specific place during an event, and included both statements "bomb" and "blow it up". Simply looking to illustrate that these are not irregular or threatening statements, they are part of common vernacular, and assigning "notice of intent" seems somewhat unreasonable.

It isn't law enforcements job to second-guess intent. Let the courts handle that.

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July 13, 2013 10:39:11 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Paranoia at its finest. Its all those key words that law enforcement focuses on. Put certain ones together and you're sure to bring the law down on top of you. A sign of the times.

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July 14, 2013 12:21:39 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting negaither,
I do understand there is a difference - the kid's tweet called out a specific place during an event, and included both statements "bomb" and "blow it up". Simply looking to illustrate that these are not irregular or threatening statements, they are part of common vernacular,

Yes...it's ALL about context....hence the title of this thread....

As Wizard commented....it's not up to the police to second guess intent.  Literal interpretation of the statement is what they would be obliged to act upon .... as only AFTER an arrest/response can they determine it may just have been 'vernacular' [not common.... parochial].

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July 14, 2013 1:01:12 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

so.... if you're standing in a queue at the airport, on the phone to someone, who asks you what your favourite dessert is.... and you say..."Bombe Alaska"... I wonder where that leaves you....  

Quoting DrJBHL,
The youth in the OP did something dangerous and criminal. He did it, not his daddy, mommy or Sigmund Freud.

The responsibility lies with him, not his school, not the foods in his diet, not his church, political party nor Zodiac sign.

"He chose...poorly.", as the line goes.

and unfortunately, that goes with the territory of being...16 years old... in my experience the age for a boy when he is most off his tree is 17... they seem to go through some chemical brain imbalance where they just seem to go nuts... seen it many times... very hard to put old heads on young shoulders... no matter how much you say... 'they are old enough to know that it's wrong'... their brains just seem to be misfiring during this stage.... not saying all... of course there are some nice quiet sensible ones... but, seen and experienced enough of it to know... it's a very dangerous period for them, in many ways, with their decision making...and you're very glad when they make it out at the end of it in one piece...

Quoting Uvah,
Paranoia at its finest. Its all those key words that law enforcement focuses on. Put certain ones together and you're sure to bring the law down on top of you. A sign of the times.

yep, you wonder where it's all going to end up...

 

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July 14, 2013 1:07:10 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting sydneysiders,
and unfortunately, that goes with the territory of being...16 years old... in my experience the age for a boy when he is most off his tree is 17... they seem to go through some chemical brain imbalance where they just seem to go nuts... seen it many times... very hard to put old heads on young shoulders... no matter how much you say... 'they are old enough to know that it's wrong'... their brains just seem to be misfiring during this stage.... not saying all... of course there are some nice quiet sensible ones... but, seen and experienced enough of it to know... it's a very dangerous period for them, in many ways, with their decision making...and you're very glad when they make it out at the end of it in one piece...

Quoting Uvah, reply 46

I believe it was Chapter four... of Portnoy's Complaint ....its title.  [I'll leave you to look it up]...

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July 14, 2013 2:46:55 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Jafo,

Yes...it's ALL about context....hence the title of this thread....

As Wizard commented....it's not up to the police to second guess intent.  Literal interpretation of the statement is what they would be obliged to act upon .... as only AFTER an arrest/response can they determine it may just have been 'vernacular' [not common.... parochial].

 

So if I make a joke or something about stealing your car, you should turn me in for me to be charged with grand theft auto? Nothing was done, and they have no case. It's not like the courts dont make mistakes. It's the job of the police to gather suspects and evidence to justify an arrest. Otherwise, just arrest the whole freeway, charge them all with drunk driving, speeding and reckless driving. Let the courts decide.

I think we have different ideas about the point of contention here. I won't speak for anyone else, but I'm not saying nobody should have acted on the tweet. Yes, from a certain view, it represented a threat to the people at that concert. To remove that threat, I agree he should have been taken away, questioned, and searched. That has to happen for the security of the other people. We agree up to here. Then, the concert ends, everyone leaves, there was no attack, no trace of equipment, and it's obvious he was taken out of context. You let him go. He already lost the money for the concert ticket and had a not very fun time over A MISUNDERSTANDING.

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