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Rebellion Multiplayer: A string of broken promises (long)

By on March 29, 2014 4:44:22 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Sinkillr

Join Date 04/2010
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So it seems my bump of that steam thread got it locked (sorry goa) so I decided to make a new one.

The Big Announcement 

As everyone knows, SOASE Trinity multiplayer has long been a continual embarrassment for the entire fanbase. It seemed that Ironclad placed a higher priority on the single player aspect of the game, even though they had on their hands a brilliant multiplayer one.

List of reasons why ICO sucks:   

1. No matchmaking (seriously?)

2. No leaderboards

3. Horrible stability problems

4. No auto-map downloading

5. Too much barebones functionality that becomes readily apparent when you play for the first time

 

So, many players were beyond excited when Stardock/Ironclad announced Rebellion, as they were promised the game would lead to expanded multiplayer features. The old days of sitting around in a lobby for hours and hours were finally about to end. The time for Diplomacy was over. Rebellion was upon us. 

But then it was announced the game was to be released alongside Steam...A chorus of fans screamed their disapproval. Was it not Stardock, they said, who was the foremost opponent of DRM? Was it not they, who created the "Gamer's Bill of Rights?" Was it not they, who was the last beacon of light and hope against the darkness that is Steam?

 

Gamer's Bill of Rights

4. Gamers shall have the right to have their games not require a third party download manager installed in order for the game to function.

8. Gamers have the right to use their games without being inconvenienced due to copy protection or digital rights management.

 

But alas, the $$$ Steamroller (haha) continued to trample the bodies of millions of its devoted fans... the smell of greenbacks was apparently too alluring for Stardock.... However, the majority of fans were willing to forgive this deep betrayal... as long as Ironclad/Stardock continued to make excellent games, they argued, what is a little DRM poison down our throats? 

And the devs were offering such sweet promises...

 

Frogboy (Stardock CEO) in Feb 2012:

"If someone wants to point to a viable alternative to Steamworks, then do so.  Otherwise, asking us to cripple the experience for 95% of the player base (in-game achievements, leader boards, multiplayer help -- people are going to freak when they see how well Rebellion does in MP compared to Trinity, player stats, etc.) is unreasonable.  People want these features. They're expected in modern games.  "

Another quote in Jan 2012:

"We’re still looking into multiplayer enhancements but hope to implement some form of auto-matching or player ranking system."

 

Shock and Awe 

Exactly one year after Rebellion's announcement, a public beta was released for all pre-order members. "AHA," exclaimed the Stardock loyalists. "Stardock does care about its customers! Can you see EA or Activision doing this?" Little did they know of the horror that awaited them...

The beta could be summarized in one word: Crap. Numerous bugs, glitches, imbalanced factions ruining balance... the list went on and on. Also, NONE of the promised multiplayer features were implemented. Many testers expressed their list of concerns about the game on their forums. Stardock was slow to respond. Common-sense proposals about jumping starbases and corvettes were ignored for weeks on end. The Vasari factions were strangely buffed, much to the bewilderment of skilled players. Meanwhile, the technical aspect of the game was getting worse. Minidumps, long thought to be extinct, were making a roaring comeback. Soon every game in 3 was experiencing players dropping.

But not to worry, said Stardock. This was just a beta, all of the bugs and glitches would be fixed. And on release day, it would be tall, broad-shouldered, and muscled like a maiden's fantasy...And like the sheep following each other to slaughter, the fans believed this little lie...

 

The Day of Reckoning

June 2012. Release day. Eager fans downloaded rebellion as soon as the clock hit 12:00. They then logged into ICO. Shock. Horror. It was the exact same interface... the exact same gameplay ... the exact same ordeal of minidumps and disconnects... Many fans were aghast at this experience. They were horrified and betrayed. Numerous posts in this forum were created to express their deep and profound disappointment. But one by one, those threads were locked...

By now, Stardock was getting desperate. Fan reviews were trashing the game in numerous sites. Many noticed the odd discrepancy between the "official" reviews and the user ones... A single courageous voice dared to speak the truth and expose this corruption... He was forever banished, never to be seen or heard again...

 

 

...But never fear, Yarlen is here! Our intrepid moderator of the forums, in a post 4 months after release, vaguely promised new 'multiplayer features' in January 2013.

Yarlen Oct 2012-  "I'm going to be looking into additional multiplayer stuff on my own time, gang. Will let you know more once I design some stuff out, but give me till December/January to get my bits organized. "

Sadly, little did the fan base know that "stuff" was actually a new plague of minidumps...

 

Quoting Yarlen,
"We invested quite a bit of time/money/effort into multiplayer with Sins: Rebellion.  I'm sorry that it didn't meet everyone's expectations, but we did fix the existing desyncs, crashes, many performance issues, added Steamworks support to help prevent smurfing, added Steam Friends and more."

 

It also did not help that the devs were stuck in denial...

 

Aftermath

As weeks turned into months, and months into years, the fanbase had had enough. They began to abandon ICO by the hundreds. The players online dropped to ~140 during peak hours. Stardock was getting frantic. Two barebones DLCs and failed to stop this hemorrhaging. Stardock tried to stimulate the SOASE economy with repeated steam sales, but they too bit the dust. Their schemes were finally at an end...

 

Two years after its release, the promised features never materialized. Ironclad Online is still horribly broken. Player count is lower than ever. The influx of people from steam sales is long gone. It looks like SOASE is on its way to being buried in the ashes of gaming history, never to see the light of day...

 

So what exactly happened? Was this the typical hyping up of a new game? Were the new features cut due to development costs? Or did the devs lie through their teeth to increase sales?

 

You decide...

 

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March 29, 2014 6:40:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Wow, excellent post. Even though I wasn't around for Diplomacy, you summarized my thoughts exactly.

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March 29, 2014 9:36:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I see... how typical

Greedy devs ditch their games for money

Resulting in a shitty product

And gamers just... quit

It seems I'd have to wittness yet another downfall

Even though I've just come here

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March 29, 2014 9:41:52 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Lazgrane,

I see... how typical

Greedy devs ditch their games for money

Resulting in a shitty product

And gamers just... quit

It seems I'd have to wittness yet another downfall

Even though I've just come here

Um yes, you indeed have just come here. The game has been around since 2008. People are still playing it. The fall is taking quite sometime.

That and Sinkllr is a bit of a troll. And makes lots of accounts to make his gripes seem reasonable.

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March 29, 2014 9:49:39 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Ryat the only troll here is you. You have not even responded to a single one of my thoughts, and it seems to me that is becoming a pattern. I spent alot of time writing this up, finding various quotes, all of which I believe 100%. Quite frankly, if you don't have anything constructive to add, fluff off and dont respond to my posts. At least Seleuceia does that.

And lmfao, do you even have a shred of fluffing evidence for that last part? Seriously gtfo if you don't have the time to even write a decent comment.

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March 29, 2014 11:11:20 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The only problem I've seen with the multiplayer is the lack of skill-based matchmaking, which is due to a lack of consistent players online.  There are fortunately enough players of comparable skill for multiplayer to still be playable in my experience.

I also have to say that Rebellion has entirely fixed minidumps for me, which was a horrible problem with Trinity (at least when I switched to a new Windows 7 computer from my older XP platform).  I have only experienced 1 minidump...which was with a mod (excluding the start-up minidump that always occurs when initially enabling or disabling a mod).

Although buffing the Vasari was a strange thing to do, in the long run the TEC gets huge bonuses for economy and the Advent gets really good fleet synergy.  Mainly what rebellion did with the changes was to make each civilization unique, since in trinity there weren't very many things that really set them apart other than their capital ships.  Though they're not that far off from trinity, it's just enough to set them apart as truly different now (in my opinion).

I can't comment if the multiplayer was filled with bugs in 2012 since I didn't play it then, but I have yet to see a single problem in an online game since I have started last year.  And I have no idea how steam could have negatively affected the game.

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March 30, 2014 12:04:46 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Suomi Sotilashenkilo,

I also have to say that Rebellion has entirely fixed minidumps for me, which was a horrible problem with Trinity (at least when I switched to a new Windows 7 computer from my older XP platform).  I have only experienced 1 minidump...which was with a mod (excluding the start-up minidump that always occurs when initially enabling or disabling a mod).

Don't take this the wrong way, but I really doubt you have played rebellion multiplayer (or at least 100+ games). Back in 2012 and 2013 when I used to play regularly, games could not last one hour before me or somebody else MDing (look up my previous posts, jinglycats, or Seleuceias if you dont believe me). This ruins the game because an AI is not a suitable replacement for a skilled player. Everyone in the lobby is now forced to quit and re-pick teams, a process that can take over 30 minutes...

Although it is not quite as bad today as it was over a year ago, that does not mean the problem went away. I've noticed that around 1 in 7 games end prematurely due to some kind of technical issue... and they're not all MDs/disconnects these days. Now we have a new one to deal with: runtime errors! It is quite unacceptable in 2014 for a product to have these sorts of issues, especially for one whose player base have been screaming for fixes since day one. It just seems Stardock does not care about improving and expanding the multiplayer aspect of this game; a shame considering they have a real gem in their hands.

And thats not even getting to ICO features either, a massive fail if I ever saw one. My 16 year old starsiege tribes game has more functionality than that.

Quoting Suomi Sotilashenkilo,

Although buffing the Vasari was a strange thing to do, in the long run the TEC gets huge bonuses for economy and the Advent gets really good fleet synergy.  Mainly what rebellion did with the changes was to make each civilization unique, since in trinity there weren't very many things that really set them apart other than their capital ships.  Though they're not that far off from trinity, it's just enough to set them apart as truly different now (in my opinion).

You are still stuck in the old trinity mindset. There is no Advent synergy anymore; at least not until the very late late game. Titans and vettes have made most of the early game ships obsolete. And what changes in rebellion gave TEC huge bonuses to their economy? The TL did get a research for two SBs (and theoretically quad trade ports) but that is tier 8 and almost never gets built. 

As for vasari, they have finally been nerfed down to reasonable levels. And it only took two years.

 
Quoting Suomi Sotilashenkilo,

I can't comment if the multiplayer was filled with bugs in 2012 since I didn't play it then, but I have yet to see a single problem in an online game since I have started last year.  And I have no idea how steam could have negatively affected the game.
You should play more multiplayer. 1-2 matches with friends isn't really an accurate assessment of ICO stability. What is your ICO nickname btw?
 
And the discussion about the pros and cons of steam integration has been beaten to death already (ex. No game resells); you can find numerous threads about it online.
 
Its ironic because a minidump is what inspired me to write this post...
 
 
EDIT: LOL Ryat, the player you just counted as one of the "new players" has just posted in the steam thread, with over 500 hours played. The other is on my friends list and numerous others. Your trolling is getting more and more desperate. Maybe if you stepped outside your stardock fanboy bubble for one second you might acknowledge some of my criticism.
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March 30, 2014 12:28:47 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,
You have not even responded to a single one of my thoughts, and it seems to me that is becoming a pattern.

True but that is because after careful reading I find nothing useful beyond whaa whaa whaa, I'm right, everyone else is wrong, lets see how many people I can enrage/mystify/confuse postings. Its becoming a pattern.

Quoting Sinkillr,
And lmfao, do you even have a shred of fucking evidence for that last part?

The fact that at least one if not two or more "first timers" with sign up dates being the month of your post leads to some conclusions being drawn that way.

Quoting Sinkillr,
Ryat the only troll here is you. You have not even responded to a single one of my thoughts, and it seems to me that is becoming a pattern. I spent alot of time writing this up, finding various quotes, all of which I believe 100%. Quite frankly, if you don't have anything constructive to add, fluff off and dont respond to my posts. At least Seleuceia does that.

And lmfao, do you even have a shred of fluffing evidence for that last part? Seriously gtfo if you don't have the time to even write a decent comment.

Ah the language of the illiterate and small minded.

Carry on.

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March 30, 2014 12:52:57 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Suomi Sotilashenkilo,
I also have to say that Rebellion has entirely fixed minidumps for me

I ENVY YOU

MDs are terrible...it is rare a game finishes without at least one person MDing, and by "finish" we aren't even talking a true finish, but rather when one team decides to quit since they know it is over...

I've heard all these "excuses" like "maybe it's just your computer", but that wouldn't explain why 2-4 people can MD at the same time (I think the record I've witnessed is 6, but 2-4 is common enough)...I've also heard excuses like "it's just cause you play on faster game speeds with 10 people", but that wouldn't explain the MDs I've experienced in 1v1s or games on normal speed...even if you don't personally MD, any MP player that plays regular "experiences" MDs, if only in the form of someone else in their game getting an MD...

 


Back on topic though.....

To my knowledge, Stardock and Ironclad had no real experience with competitive multiplayer before SoaSE...the mentality needed to create a good SP game is not necessarily the same mentality needed to make a good MP game, and so it is understandable that a studio well versed in SP can have some problems trying to make a good MP game on the first try...perhaps most importantly, when Sins was made, it was not intended to be a big MP game...my understanding is that the MP was more an afterthought, a little implementation so the devs could have some fun...

As we now know, Sins is an excellent game for MP...the UI and simplified gameplay combined with deep and diverse strategy make for an excellent competitive game, but that is more by chance than by design....even when it became apparent that this game could be an MP jewel, we still have the issue of the experiences the developers possess...if you don't have experience working with MP, you can't magically become an expert just because your game has potential you didn't realize...

It is an unfortunate situation....MP devs have to play their own game a lot more in competitive environments in order to fully understand the game balance and mechanics, and that probably is not a luxury the Starclad devs had...if you are an SP kind of dev, you don't play your game for hundreds of hours against other really good human players because that just isn't good use of your time...we can complain all we want, but Stardock and Ironclad are what they are -- I think though they will have learned a thing or two from this experience and will be more prepared next time...

 

 

As for the general criticism levied at the devs...

It is true that MDs are really bad, this is a problem that either the devs are not aware about or simply do not care about....but lets be really clear here, by "do not care about" I'm NOT implying the devs are greedy buggers who don't give two shits about their players...by "do not care", I mean they have recognized that the time, effort, and resources needed to fix such problems simply would not be justified...in other words, it would not be worth the trouble...the SP experience seems to be highly stable currently, and that represents the majority of the player base...it is also possible the devs aren't aware or don't believe MDs are rampant -- most of mine don't even log a dump file since they are runtime errors...

We can criticize the Beta of Rebellion, but really the only valid criticism is that it wasn't long enough...the devs didn't beta test the Vasari, who were grossly OP for months...but then again, they were OP for months, so I'm not sure a slightly longer beta test really would have fixed the issue...and then there are things like wail and the weakness of the Ankylon and Coronata that also weren't fixed for months, and those things were beta tested...this all points to the fact that the devs simply aren't MP naturals...it is what it is, get over it....

Finally, I'd just like to add some perspective...I encourage anyone who thinks SD is evil to look at the total war forums...the mayhem that has resulted from the release of Rome 2 Total War is a site to behold, and we're talking a AAA studio...bugs, frame rates, and balance issues still plague that game and those dudes have experience making MP games...it's also the 3rd game on that engine, you'd think they'd have it down pat by now...then there are the other 4x space games, like SotS 2 which was practically unplayable for months....do I even need to mention SimCity???

When you look at the industry, SD is still clearly far better in how they handle the community and their games compared to most companies...they aren't perfect, but they are pretty damn good...this anti-steam non-sense is a good example -- we wouldn't even be having this discussion with any other company because no other company even had the gamer bill of rights.....

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March 30, 2014 1:04:03 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Seleuceia I am disappointed in you. My main gripe with the game is not with SD's horrible skill in game balance, but rather with the technical/UI aspect that stardock said was going to be fixed, but havent done jack about. Even the most ardent stardock fanboy has to admit it has the worst multiplayer interface/stability of any rts game in the past 10 years. 

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March 30, 2014 1:32:52 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,

Back on topic though.....

To my knowledge, Stardock and Ironclad had no real experience with competitive multiplayer before SoaSE...the mentality needed to create a good SP game is not necessarily the same mentality needed to make a good MP game, and so it is understandable that a studio well versed in SP can have some problems trying to make a good MP game on the first try...perhaps most importantly, when Sins was made, it was not intended to be a big MP game...my understanding is that the MP was more an afterthought, a little implementation so the devs could have some fun...

To my understanding Ironclad is a pretty new company, and Stardock was best known for making the Galactic Civilizations series (which has had many complaints about no multiplayer included, which is why they're finally adding it in).  So that's not surprising to me.

Quoting Seleuceia,


Quoting Suomi Sotilashenkilo, reply 5I also have to say that Rebellion has entirely fixed minidumps for me

I ENVY YOU

MDs are terrible...it is rare a game finishes without at least one person MDing, and by "finish" we aren't even talking a true finish, but rather when one team decides to quit since they know it is over...

I've heard all these "excuses" like "maybe it's just your computer", but that wouldn't explain why 2-4 people can MD at the same time (I think the record I've witnessed is 6, but 2-4 is common enough)...I've also heard excuses like "it's just cause you play on faster game speeds with 10 people", but that wouldn't explain the MDs I've experienced in 1v1s or games on normal speed...even if you don't personally MD, any MP player that plays regular "experiences" MDs, if only in the form of someone else in their game getting an MD...

Sins never used to minidump until I tried trinity on a Windows 7 machine, and when I got rebellion the issue just went away.  Never had problems on my older XP machine at all.  I didn't start playing multiplayer until around last spring or summer, but the only time I had a minidump issue was because I had just disabled a mod and forgot to let the game hit its first-time crash point...   fortunately it happened right after the game started so we didn't exactly lose any progress.

I should also add that other than private games with friends (which I've been doing a lot longer, and which was when I encountered my first trinity minidumps), most of my matches haven't lasted much longer than an hour or two, and I haven't had disconnects mid-game except when someone was getting slaughtered (and probably quit).

The only weird error I've seen is the game randomly speeding up, which is presumably caused by it going slightly out of sync.

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March 30, 2014 1:45:30 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,

Seleuceia I am disappointed in you. My main gripe with the game is not with SD's horrible skill in game balance, but rather with the technical/UI aspect that stardock said was going to be fixed, but havent done jack about. Even the most ardent stardock fanboy has to admit it has the worst multiplayer interface/stability of any rts game in the past 10 years. 

I've had a lot more issues with Company of Heroes and Medieval II Total War personally, which were both released by bigger companies (that already had experience in online gameplay).

Quoting Sinkillr,
What is your ICO nickname btw?

Finland soldier (in Finnish); when I made my stardock account I was going through a bit of an obsession with the Winter War during WWII.

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March 31, 2014 5:26:25 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,

Seleuceia I am disappointed in you. My main gripe with the game is not with SD's horrible skill in game balance, but rather with the technical/UI aspect that stardock said was going to be fixed, but havent done jack about. Even the most ardent stardock fanboy has to admit it has the worst multiplayer interface/stability of any rts game in the past 10 years. 

 

I could imagine that any ideas of a new interface for MP were scrapped when they decided to integrate Steam. Which I still dislike very much.... but on the other hand... Stardock once stated that

 

90 % of all sales were over steam.

 

And while I hate steam with a deep passion for their locked in business model, only a fool would seriously expect Stardock to quit steam after such a success.

 

About the MP interface: Yes.... it certainly could be improved. But frankly.... it is not the worst MP interface I have seen the last decade. Not by a fair margin. It gets the job done. And considering the average number of players even in good times, it wasnt to difficult to find the right game for you.

 

Perhaps you are mostly used to games that are developed from the ground up for competive MP. Those games obviously try from the beginning to implement a good interface for MP. Which doesnt mean they succeed all the time. But they try. They spent money for a good MP interface because they know MP is a very important part of their game. One that will notable increase sales when it is done good.

 

That are the MP focused games. Many shooters fall into this category. And then there are SP focused games. Most RTS fall into this category. E4X games are usually even more single player focused. Those games do benefit from having a MP part.... but it is not their overall selling point.

 

How many C&C copies were sold? How many of those do you see on the servers?

 

The thing is.... arround 90 % of the player base is single player only. They never touch the MP even once. I would believe the number is sinking in more recent years, but the overall majority is still single player only. 

 

And that means that they are where the money is. If you ignore the MP community in Sins.... (which was not ignored, mind you) you might loose 10 % sales... but if you make the SP guys unhappy you may loose 90 % of your sales.

 

Thats why they nerfed the hard AI.... because it proved to hard for the singleplayers. I dont think any halfway competent MP players has  any issues with it.

 

About the stability issues:

 

I mean no disrespect and I dont question your words. But mabye... just maybe the minidumps are not such a regular occurance for the majority of players.

 

I understand that minidumps are extremely annoying for anybody having them. But a few things I dont understand:

 

  • They cant be that regularly for the majority. Hardly anybody speaks about them on the web. Leaving this forum and a few people aside of course.
  • I dont have them. And I run a rather old system by now. Core2Duo @2,40 GHZ, overclocked to 3.20 GHZ, ATI HD 4870, Win XP... 32 Bit.
  • My friends dont have them. And they have significantly more modern hardware: For example one of my friends.... AND YES.. we PLAY MP.... 12 hour long slugfestes.... without any issues.
    Win XP Pentium IV, Geforce IDK -->  No issues
    Win Vista QuadCore HD4890 -> no issues
    Win 7 Hexacore... HD 6890 --> no issues

    Another friend.... XP and now Win 7.... no issues. Ever. And we even play with mods regularly.
  • Did you send your dump files to Stardock? They cant fix it if they dont know what is causing it.... IF yes... did they never said anything about it? 
  • My Star Trek clan is playing Sins Rebellion with the Armada 3 Mod. NO ISSUES.

 

 

I could imagine that Sins does not like certain modern hardware and system configurations. Maybe it hates your high end graphic card driver. IDK. Whatever it is..... it seems to affect only MP people... which is odd in itself. Maybe certain circumstances can trigger a minidump.

 

Did you all update ALL of your drivers?

 

YES... I know.... MINE ARE OUTDATED AS HELL, too..... but then.... MY GAME RUNS!

Or maybe that is the issue... perhaps you should install drivers from 2010

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March 31, 2014 5:56:18 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Finally aresiv is back... sel and ryat have been destroying the forums in your absence buddy...

Anyway, just try playing 10 5v5 matches on Ico. I bet you cant play all of them without someone or yourself dropping.

 

 

EDIT: Lets not have this devolve into the usual thread about minidumps. Talk about stardocks broken promises or other issues with multiplayer instead.

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March 31, 2014 6:19:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ARESIV,
They cant be that regularly for the majority. Hardly anybody speaks about them on the web. Leaving this forum and a few people aside of course.

I don't know what you mean by "web" but they are discussed frequently on ICO -- it is a common joke that most games are decided by one (or more) people dumping...

It may very well be the case (and probably very likely) that the majority of players do not personally MD...but then that begs the question, what is an "acceptable" number of unfortunate players who do MD?  If even 10% of the player base MDs regularly, then that means a single 5s game has a 65% chance of at least one person dumping...in fact, since about 2/3 of all games do end up having one or more MDs, it wouldn't surprise me if 10% of the ICO player base does personally experience them....that's a minority, yes, but a rather significant minority...when that many people are having "compatibility issues", the fault doesn't land on the consumer, but on either the software or the servers (in this case probably a combination of both).....

Quoting ARESIV,
Did you send your dump files to Stardock? They cant fix it if they dont know what is causing it.... IF yes... did they never said anything about it?

Runtime errors and CTDs do not generate any dump file...most of my MDs have been runtime errors since the last patch so I have virtually no dump files to send...I probably shouldn't enter the realm of hearsay, but here it is -- players I've talked to that have submitted dump files have never gotten anything more than "they didn't help, sorry"...the only times I've heard of dump files helping the devs is bugs that affected both SP and MP alike...

I think it is pretty well known and recognized that SP is highly stable...I believe it is also pretty well established that direct connect games seem to avoid MDs as well....whatever the problem is, it happens only on ICO, but it nevertheless happens a lot....people are crashing even when in the lobby after games, which almost certainly points to poor memory management...why some people seem to be more affected than others is a mystery, but shifting the blame to the consumer seems more like a cop-out than an actual explanation....

 

 

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March 31, 2014 6:32:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ARESIV,
My friends dont have them. And they have significantly more modern hardware: For example one of my friends.... AND YES.. we PLAY MP.... 12 hour long slugfestes.... without any issues. Win XP Pentium IV, Geforce IDK --> No issuesWin Vista QuadCore HD4890 -> no issuesWin 7 Hexacore... HD 6890 --> no issuesAnother friend.... XP and now Win 7.... no issues. Ever. And we even play with mods regularly.

I have played Sins on 2 different computers (dell with ATI and Lenovo with NVIDIA) and 3 different OSes (vista, W7, W8 & W8.1)...I've played on at least 6 different internet connections, some wired and some wireless....I've done multiple clean installs of my various OSes and the latest chipset and graphics drivers...for as long as I can remember, I have experienced MDs on ICO, and there has been a noticeable change (for better or worse) with the frequency of these MDs after each patch....

I'm not really sure we want to do the whole anecdotal thing "well my computer does or does not MD"...people dump online, it happens, and it happens often...even those who don't personally dump still suffer...

 

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March 31, 2014 6:57:10 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,



I'm not really sure we want to do the whole anecdotal thing "well my computer does or does not MD"...people dump online, it happens, and it happens often...even those who don't personally dump still suffer...

 

Just reload from the last autosave, let the others to rejoin and continue playing. I only play over ICO compstomps with my buddies, but when the game crashes on occasion, this is how we solve it and it works just fine.

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March 31, 2014 9:09:56 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I works fine with personal friends, and is something I've done in the past when playing with one of my "real life" buddies after an MD, but it is extremely unrealistic for the typical competitive game on ICO...

It's hard to appreciate if you don't play competitive MP games, but simply getting the game to start the first time is actually quite difficult -- getting all 10 people to come back and play from an autosave is nigh impossible...

I'm not just being pessimistic, as I've witnessed it...seriously, it's not uncommon for someone to DC or MD at game start, and sometimes people will try to do a rehost...even though we are talking almost zero time passed, actually getting all 10 of the original people back into the rehost is like herding cats -- I'd say it works about half the time....I can't imagine trying to get all 10 back into an autosaved rehost...

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April 1, 2014 5:59:53 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,

I works fine with personal friends, and is something I've done in the past when playing with one of my "real life" buddies after an MD, but it is extremely unrealistic for the typical competitive game on ICO...

It's hard to appreciate if you don't play competitive MP games, but simply getting the game to start the first time is actually quite difficult -- getting all 10 people to come back and play from an autosave is nigh impossible...

I'm not just being pessimistic, as I've witnessed it...seriously, it's not uncommon for someone to DC or MD at game start, and sometimes people will try to do a rehost...even though we are talking almost zero time passed, actually getting all 10 of the original people back into the rehost is like herding cats -- I'd say it works about half the time....I can't imagine trying to get all 10 back into an autosaved rehost...

 

I understand that, but at the same time, you have to admit, you cant blame devs for that, its the problem of the multiplayer community, who is not willing to deal with a little bit of inconvenience. You got to look at yourself first. Its you (meant as community as a whole, not you in particular), who does not want to reload from save in case of a crash, its you who arbitrarily decided that 5v5 is the way to go (even though say 3v3 would make the probability of MD occurence lower), its you, who decided to keep playing, even if one player drops out and is replaced by AI, at which point the game is hardly fair and balanced...

I am not trying to make any apologies for the devs. Obviously its their task to fix the game, so the players dont need to deal with crashes and stuff like that. They shall to keep any promises to gave in the past as well. But lets not pretend coding a computer game is a trivial matter. Neither is making the game completely stable and bugless for any possible PC configuration... actually i would say to organize 10 people into rejoining the lobby after a crash is potentially easier than to reproduce and fix some random crash/desync...

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April 1, 2014 1:01:40 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting ARESIV,

About the stability issues:

I mean no disrespect and I dont question your words. But mabye... just maybe the minidumps are not such a regular occurance for the majority of players.

I understand that minidumps are extremely annoying for anybody having them. But a few things I dont understand:

They cant be that regularly for the majority. Hardly anybody speaks about them on the web. Leaving this forum and a few people aside of course.
I dont have them. And I run a rather old system by now. Core2Duo @2,40 GHZ, overclocked to 3.20 GHZ, ATI HD 4870, Win XP... 32 Bit.
My friends dont have them. And they have significantly more modern hardware: For example one of my friends.... AND YES.. we PLAY MP.... 12 hour long slugfestes.... without any issues.
Win XP Pentium IV, Geforce IDK -->  No issues
Win Vista QuadCore HD4890 -> no issues
Win 7 Hexacore... HD 6890 --> no issues

I haven't had a problem with minidumps since Rebellion, but I have to say all my minidump problems were on more advanced computers while the older XP ones worked fine.  Also, once I had a minidump playing a mod on the 1.82 beta around 7 hours in and I turned it off, and haven't had one since.

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April 2, 2014 5:08:46 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think I disagree with the entirety of the OP, but it is a well written troll. 

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April 2, 2014 5:30:12 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Yarlen,

I think I disagree with the entirety of the OP, but it is a well written troll. 

Who wants to bet on how long until Sinkillr claims Yarlen is a troll?

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April 2, 2014 11:42:36 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Timmaigh,
I understand that, but at the same time, you have to admit, you cant blame devs for that, its the problem of the multiplayer community, who is not willing to deal with a little bit of inconvenience.

I strongly disagree. Have you seen the internet? People are impatient. Even more so in an activity that they're supposed to be engaging in for fun. That is the market. A game should not require its community to painstakingly develop numerous subtle social practices just to get together to play it--and the sins community already does, including the naming conventions of lobbies, the PuG system, and the practice of quitting instead of trying to make a last stand or run out your opponents' patience.

And I'll second Sel's point about getting a game together. A 5s can take between 15 minutes and an hour to actually go, even after the room is filled. Getting those same 10 back together (even assuming they all agree to quit in the first place) is very unrealistic. Also, there's no guarantee that whatever caused the MD isn't still lurking in the save file, bound to recur at the exact same moment once this unicorn does appear.

PS: I also think the OP is exaggerating. This is a small studio game that has lasted way longer than it was expected to; it is a lot harder to hotfix most of the problems we're talking about than you may realize--and given the very small number of users who care about online play, it probably really isn't worth it to do so.

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April 6, 2014 7:20:28 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oh, the irony...

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April 6, 2014 7:56:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

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April 6, 2014 9:33:27 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

So they banned his main account already, did they?

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