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1.82 Balance Problems

By on June 11, 2014 2:19:19 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Stilat

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June 11, 2014 2:27:36 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

mines + starbase creep.

 

Add 25 to fleet supply to mobile starbases.

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June 11, 2014 2:29:18 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Literally no one who understands the game agrees with you siddy...

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June 11, 2014 2:52:03 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

[citation required]

 

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June 11, 2014 3:30:00 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I would appreciate it if Starbases all had a supply cost actually...

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June 11, 2014 3:33:04 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yes, lets nerf the vasari to the ground... Surely they didnt get enough nerfs the last five patches right?

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June 11, 2014 7:55:45 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Unity Mass needs to do chaining damage...

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June 11, 2014 9:48:51 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Flak needs big boomies!

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June 11, 2014 10:28:47 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Nerf flak

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June 11, 2014 10:32:26 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting WJC3688,
Nerf flak

 

Now you too are starting it..

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June 11, 2014 11:17:34 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Corsev does seem OP late game. (Discussed in depth at http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/453667/page/1/) The combination of hugely bugged self-repair (way in excess of the in-game description) and massive insta-damage explosions out-scales any other cap ships, TEC or otherwise [except titans]. The boarding bug that Corsev suffers from in the early game becomes statically unlikely as its accompanying fleet grows beyond 10. So it needs a bugfix/buff for the early game and another bugfix/nerf for the late game, methinks.

Mines grant too much XP for killing given their actual combat worth in PvP, but this has always been the case. The whole system of mines needs rework.

I don't see major imbalances in Orky vs TEC/Advent fleet. While Orky has no fleet supply cost (after it's up) it does have non-trivial build costs, so the cumulative costs of adding one that can survive the single enemy fleet of doom at every planet is what constrains such a strategy...

On the other hand, the Vasari repair platform seems excessively weak, unable to keep the Vasari resource econ alive vs. an attacker that knows what he's doing, even with an Orky it can't defeat right away in [every Vasari] grav well. I haven't tested Phasic Barrier yet, but given its cost in terms of (civ) labs, even if that's the golden parachute the Vasari econ needs to stay alive, it's prohibitive to get it in the first place as the Vasari need those 2 mil labs like air, so 5 labs for a stable/viable econ seem a bit much to ask for. Might as well try and spam Overseers (with just 4 mil labs), but that's not cost effective either. The Vasari might need a new L1-L2 civilian tech that accelerates the rebuild rate of their (planetary) constructor frigates or Phasic Barrier moved down (assuming it's any good.) Either that or the game engine needs a major rethink of when it considers a planet under siege for the purpose of applying that crushing 10X slowdown factor in constructor rebuild times. Currently a single scout giving the run-around suffices to impose/maintain that nasty 5 minutes rebuild time; and after that cooldown is over, there comes the enemy harassment fleet again (corvettes typically), blasting the constructor nearly instantly even if you manually cast the sluggish Vasari repair on it, which makes little difference. The Skira (which has both decent repair and anti-corvettes fighters) can't keep up with enemy corvettes moving from well to well keeping the Vasari resource econ in continuous lockdown. Defending the resource extractors at a single planet is not enough for a viable econ [for Vasari or any other race]. And while I haven't tried Skira spam, I can't see that working given the escalating costs involved. PJIs don't fare well either; while they are cheap in terms of research for the Vasari, they are too easily destroyed again due the crappy repair rate of Vasari plats and PJIs have such long build times that it's a hail mary for the Vasari to get any of them up before their constructors are annihilated and kept in La La land. Sure if the Vasari start 5+ jumps away from a [human] enemy (e.g. 1v1 or even 2v2 maps), they can get some defensible econ up, but otherwise it seems hopeless for them in 1.82.

And in general, given the importance of planet constructors, repair ships and platforms should auto-cast on them, not turn Sins in a game of "you were-1s-too-slow doing that obnoxious click sequence for the N-th time, therefore you lost the game to resource econ attrition".

 

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June 11, 2014 11:35:57 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I agree that repair platforms should autocast on constructors, it's very annoying to have to check my planet that's under attack literally every few seconds to keep the constructors alive.

As to corvettes blowing up constructors and scouts then running around the gravity well, first of all that sounds very micro intensive, have you seen this done in any actual PvP matches? Second of all, is there a reason that this works only against Vasari and not the other races? IIRC they have constructor frigates too, and their constructors also rebuild 10x slower against the same strategy.....

The Corsev is dumb strong, after trying a couple matches with it I rarely ever encounter the bug where boarding party fails, ordering your fleet to focus fire the boarded ship usually works even early in the game with only 6 or so light frigates. I had about 5 free frigates just from fighting militia before even encountering the enemy, and once I did, already having that supply of boarded frigates allowed for some very nutty AoE damage considering my capship was only level 3. And yes it is unkillable at high levels until all other enemy ships have been destroyed. The AI sent a level 10 Corsev against me and even their titan went down before the Corsev did, it was the very last thing to fall and still had almost full hp even after literally every single other ship in their fleet including the titan and other capitals had died. I shudder to think of the power of that level 10 Corsev with maxed boom and nearly-maxed salvage if it was properly micro'd.

It might not be viable in MP but it's not a question of viability, it's a question of a highly bugged ship that doesn't work as intended.

And I'm serious about nerfing flak. HCs and capitals are too expensive to rely on, meaning that realistically, fleets have to rely on LRM, carriers, corvettes, or some combination for their damage. Flak counters all of these. It does little damage to capitals or utility but if a fleet has only these ships left it does not have enough damage to pose a threat. A fleet with 30 Flaks left after killing off all the enemy fleet's LRFs and strikecraft will still win by sheer attrition. Flak counters all the major damage dealers until late game when HCs can start to come out. It is not just an anti-fighter unit. It may not be a viable MP strategy because of the meta of rushing with mass LFs, but some think it works even against LFs, and regardless of MP status the ship I believe simply has a greater role against a greater variety of ships than was intended.

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June 11, 2014 11:49:42 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RespawnedTitanL10,
Phasic Barrier moved down

 

ONLY if it does not force your units to relocate fire once activated (like it does currently). It is extremely annoying when playing against AI that researched this, basically there is no way to queue attack orders, this ability just makes my ships and strike craft ignore my previous commands and start attacking stupid trade ships. It MIGHT help somewhat in multiplayer but is that small something enough to cause much annoyance to those who play singleplayer? It is really annoying when all of my bomber squadrons start pursuing tiny trade or refinery ships instead of doing something useful.

 

Anyway, why does Phasic Barrier make my units attack another thing? Why does it rewrite the attack orders of units even if they were manually issued to attack that trade port or extractor, even if I issue multiple attack orders with shift key on that trade port? Was it intended to behave like this?

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June 11, 2014 11:52:12 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting WJC3688,
And I'm serious about nerfing flak. HCs and capitals are too expensive to rely on, meaning that realistically, fleets have to rely on LRM, carriers, corvettes, or some combination for their damage. Flak counters all of these. It does little damage to capitals or utility but if a fleet has only these ships left it does not have enough damage to pose a threat. Flak counters all the major damage dealers until late game when HCs can start to come out. It is not just an anti-fighter unit. It may not be a viable MP strategy because of the meta of rushing with mass LFs, but some think it works even against LFs, and regardless of MP status the ship I believe simply has a greater role against a greater variety of ships than was intended.

 

Before any nerf you should prove flak is OP, and not just a useful ship to have. There is a severe difference between these two things.

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June 11, 2014 11:54:30 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

"OK I know you wrote an explanation but prove it."

That's........ not much of a counter-point.

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June 11, 2014 12:01:59 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting WJC3688,
"OK I know you wrote an explanation but prove it."

That's........ not much of a counter-point.

 

Yes it is, something is not OP because it counters many things. Something is OP because it gives you such an advantage others cannot really do anything about it. Capital ships, heavy cruisers, TITANS, starbases counter flak HARD, while light frigates can be built earlier and massed easier, and those do have a better multiplier against flak than, say, LRF's, and if you don't put immeasurable micro into your flak units and abuse the buggy behavior of ships when they are turning to fire at something LF are better than flak.

So again, why should I accept your viewpoint that flak is OP, and not just an underestimated alternative strategy?

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June 11, 2014 12:11:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RespawnedTitanL10,

Corsev, agreed.  Needs fixes to its abilities.

Agreed on Mine XP... not sure they should even grant any?

Rest, nothing to add/comment on.

Quoting Turchany,
Anyway, why does Phasic Barrier make my units attack another thing?

This annoys the crap out of me, too.

Quoting WJC3688,

"OK I know you wrote an explanation but prove it."

That's........ not much of a counter-point.

Anyone can write an "explanation" as to why they feel this or that is OP/UP/Good/Bad/etc, but that doesn't automatically make them right.  Crunch numbers, run tests, even look at everything that would be affected by changing the stats on flak (not just the one aspect of frigates), and then display everything for all to see... not just say you did and we should take your word for it (or expect that we have to do the same... you're the one making the point, the burden of proof is on you).

That said, I'm not in 100% disagreement with you.  My thoughts on it are actually a bit different and fairly complex, so with the little time I ever have anymore I doubt I'll be able to do much proof of concept testing on it.

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June 11, 2014 12:16:19 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting furyofthestars,
you're the one making the point, the burden of proof is on you)

 

this

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June 11, 2014 2:37:57 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Seleuceia's and Ryat's responses were only an hour apart... Coincidence???!!! I think not...

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June 11, 2014 2:49:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RespawnedTitanL10,


I don't see major imbalances in Orky vs TEC/Advent fleet. While Orky has no fleet supply cost (after it's up) it does have non-trivial build costs, so the cumulative costs of adding one that can survive the single enemy fleet of doom at every planet is what constrains such a strategy...



 

 

Lol, have you consider, that to achieve similar gravity well dominance with TEC or Advent, you need to shell maybe a "less" on recourses... But you need to raise the fleet tax?

 

And as game goes on, the cumulative economical advantage of lower tax will pay itself back, with interest for vasari player.

 

in 5s games, Feeding vasari is most cost effective way to spend money because you get a good efficiency % on the feed and you can push the gravity well and leave defenses.

 

Sure, in very tight 1v1 situation, vasari will struggle against player that is little bit better than him. Only way that vasari player will lose a real fight is that he is royally map frakked, no neutrals and the enemy is less than 2 jumps from him, allowing enemy to kill his builders before second military lab is up.

 

Any other scenario allows vasari just blatantly rush choke points and fortify them on the fly. You can try to go past them but then you will notice what it means to have more % in taxes when you will eventually lose the attrition war over terrain.

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June 11, 2014 3:21:03 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well, there is the point, too, that the Orkys are slower than shizniz.  If the Vasari player is merely starbasing the chokepoints, it's actually not that hard for an enemy fleet to bypass em.

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June 11, 2014 3:27:28 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

No, feeding vasari is vastly inefficient because it doesnt translate inti an immediate advantage... its not uncommon for vasaris to float thousands of credits at a time... vs tec/advent who are going to spend it on flak/lf spam.

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June 11, 2014 3:34:12 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting WJC3688,
Second of all, is there a reason that this works only against Vasari and not the other races? IRC they have constructor frigates too, and their constructors also rebuild 10x slower against the same strategy.....

That's a reasonable question. The answer comes from a combination of things, but mostly the poor performance of the vasari repair platform in combat. It actually repairs a fair bit of hp per AM usage, but at a slow pace. On a structure with an armor of 4 (extractor), the Vasari repair platform puts up an effective 15 * 1.2 = 18 hp per second. That's basically an extra 4 (un-upgraded) LFs worth of dps (which do only 50% vs. structures), so that level of repair quickly becomes negligible in the game, after just one fleet supply research. Once you get to a flock of 40 Disciples for example, the +10% lasers research (still one lab) is basically a counter for all the Vasari repair platforms ever built when they're repairing resource extractors. So in a typical LF spamming game, the research cost of the Vasari repair platform, plus a single instance thereof equals to the cost of its (research) counter. And the Vasari are probably going to need/build more than one repair platform.

The poor efficiency of the vasari fleet (per fleet supply unit) means that it's hard for them to defend (or attack successfully) with their fleet, so the Vasari player will rush for Orky. But the main problem with the Orky is it cant fight a fleet that doesn't want to fight it. In practical tests, a Progentitor + 50 Disciples can wipe out 2 constructors and 3 resource extractors (while they're being repaired) even if an Orky is wailing on them. And what's really glaring is that the Disciples can do that while taking no losses during this raid thanks to 2-3 casts of SR from the Prog. After which the Advent can move on to another planet (minus a constructor-rebuild-delay element.) And if the Orky doesn't have at least two hull upgrades, that is 9K hull, it is actually going to be the victim of those 50 Disciples+Prog, which can then shoot undisturbed at the resource extractors [and everything else in the grav well] after blowing up Orky. And that's not a cheap Orky costing about half the Disciples' fleet cost just to keep itself alive and relevant [about 6.5K in credits vs. 12.5 K in credits, ignoring the metal & crystal]. If the Vasari need to put an Orky like that at more than two planets, they're already spending more on defense than what the Advent is spending on offense... And while a beefy Orky keeps control of the actual planet for the Vasari, it can't really save the resource extractors at the planet, which are going to be out of action most of the time...

So what's different for other races in defending vs. raids on resource extractors? Repair platform efficiency for one. While the TEC one starts at 20 hp/sec it can be upgraded (and will be so because that is a prerequisite for other goodies, like Hoshikos) to 30 or even 40 hp/s. The Advent one also starts at 30 (but has no upgrades), but the Advent have shield bestowal available on their hangars with 3 mil labs, which more than doubles the life of structures with the added shield mitigation; the shield points themselves actually contribute less than the mitigation does. And the hangar's strike craft are also very good at catching and killing small constructor-rebuild-delaying forces. So the Advent hangar+repair platforms is basically a show stopper for extractor raiding, making those structures last much longer. TEC can basically stack Hoshikos (L3 mil lab) with their repair platform to achieve a comparable, but lesser durability effect on structures (50-60 hp repaired per second) and get +3 armor research (0.75 * 4) with the same 3 labs, resulting in a whopping 81 effective hp repaired per second on extractors (1.35 * 60). That's some 15-20 LFs equivalent firepower vs structures. Sure a bigger fleet starts wasting the extractors even through that, but that's plenty of nixed firepower, so the defender is going to be shooting at the attackers' ships for much longer with his own fleet, and the cost of the damage exchange is not looking favorable for the attacker; LFs vs. LFs do 100% damage, and even with the shield mitigation more or less doubling hp on ships, you can expect the defense to claim at least one if not two enemy LFs per extractor lost (even if the attacker brings its own Hoshikos) so the economic loss exchange starts to look unfavorable for the attacker. (Even more so for TEC as defender, because Modular Architecture makes extrator replacing cost 60% of their original value, i.e. 150 vs. 250. Even one corvette lost by the attacker basically makes up for that.)

Besides repair efficiency difference, when fleet A wants to run away after blowing up some extractor and it is pursued by an equally sized fleet B (instead of an Orky), the fleet running away will get shot at because fleets have similar speeds. Not getting into the fabled flak spam debate (which can shoot in all directions), the typical LF spam fleet can't shoot while it is running away, while a pursuant LF fleet can and will catch up at least at the jump out points, inflicting some extra retaliatory damage, on top of what was exchanged while the attacker was shooting the extractors. Although corvettes are less affected by this inability to shoot while running due to their all around guns like the flak, they are worse vs. structures relative to LFs (only 35% anti-structure efficiency vs. 50%) but they make up in numbers per fleet supply for that. Given their complex maneuvering, I'm hesitant to venture numbers of losses and actual attack efficiency of corvettes raid vs. structures followed by corvette after corvette chases. (Somebody should probably test that and perhaps post a recording.) My guess is that after receiving a corvette raid, the counter would be some carriers and/or TEC hangars with fighters and flak (on the hangar) but also flak ships which together would counter another corvette raid with a terrible loss exchange ratio for the attacker.

 

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June 11, 2014 4:40:15 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I truly have no idea how many different people (as opposed to accounts) are participating in this thread...

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June 11, 2014 4:43:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Ryat Seleuceia Fury= one person confirmed

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June 11, 2014 4:50:34 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It's strange how I get these sudden impulses to write things... like someone else is controlling me....

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